Where we went wrong.....

[Micklebot]

Youre telling me a it was impossible to get a pitt to trade back a third even though both teams wanted him offersheeted. Would we have been a better team for the last 5 years with LeClaire+Lehner or Vermette. Would we be a better team now with Lehner or Vermette? It can be argued if Lehner becomes a number one and are Franchise goalie and supplants anderson its a win but Lehner has done barely anything for this team until then. Maybe they did offer their own first but for some reason Murray wanted an aging Kuba. The offersheet is more realistic then your scenario considering it was rumored in the media and discussed by gms. Leclaire also had 4 bad years too some in the AHL and a injury history before arriving. Why was LeClaire even drafted so high?

Bottom line LeClaire was a model of inconsistency which was made worse by his constant injury issues.

If both teams wanted him offersheeted, Tbay would have just traded a comparable package to the offersheet compensation. We would have gotten their 1st, 2nd and Picard or some other 3rd equivalent piece. Basically, your making things up to make the trade a loss.

As for Leclaire, he was drafted so high because he had franchise goalie potential. Lots of GMs and scouts thought that. It didn't work out, but that happens some times. Would we have been better off with Vermette? Who knows. He'd have likely been stuck as a third liner here until Fisher was traded, and likely doesn't add full value, but given Leclaire busted, yeah, probably would like to have that one back. Long term though, we have stability at the goaltending position (including a succession plan) for the first time ever. Not sure I'd give that up for Vermette.

 

[Derivation]

I don't know exactly where to pinpoint the decline. I know the end of the Martin era was definitely tough on a lot of fans who have been following the team since its inception in the NHL.

I would say our prospects have definitely degraded to a degree. We use to be the hot bed of European talent and that has seemed to be just about completely gone now. Other teams have Nishkuinin's and Tarasenkos and Kuznetsovs and Kucherovs and we just don't seem to have any guys like that.

Furthermore breaking down the active roster on the Senators between Forwards and Defensemen, Our top 6 outside of Zibanejad, 5 of 6 are all trades/FA signings.

The bottom 6 are all Ottawa drafts outside of Legwand. Now I will admit this year the kid line has given us optimism as fans for the future of this franchise, but even at that they all seem to have bubble evaluations other than Lazar comparison to a lesser Toews. None of them are clear cut no doubt future top liners and for the most part are inked at probably top 6/ secondary scoring type of guys.

The defense on the other hand is all Ottawa drafts other than Methot, but you could argue Methot is our all around best defensemen at this point. Obviously the other guys have excuses for them, Phillips old, Karlsson longer leash on the O side, and the rest of the guys are still developing their game, but other than Ceci none of them will come close to Methot. Cowen has the tools to be a good shut down 4/5 guy as long as he follows the coaching staff and doesn't try to overplay. Boro/Wier/Gryba are all fringe players.


Does Bingo offer us hope? It still is a question with the future of Pageau, Prince, Puempel Robinson etc., but I mean who are really talking about these guys outside of Ottawa? People were saying at the rookie tourney Prince looked uninterested and had regressed a bit, yet he is now ripping it up early on this year which really proves how subjective everyone's opinions are on players. We know what Pageau brings but his size will always bring him into question of whether he can do it in the bigs, and Puempel looks like a natural goal scorer but again is still young and will need some time to get his feet wet.

Overall I'd say I can see us being the same type of team for the next 2-4 years, not contenders, not pretenders, just an average NHL hockey team who no one is really worried about playing.

My boss was ripping into us how we have no heart, and seeing how he is a B's fan I had to say you stole our heart when you got Chara.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Your revisions come from makebelieve land, the offersheet was never a realistic scenario. Playing "what if" is absurd. I guess it's a loss because we could have traded him to Pittsburgh for Crosby too. Had TBay actually wanted to offersheet him, they would have offered up their own first, and a comparable part to replace the 3rd.

Leclaire had one good year (9 shutouts, .919 sv%), and an injury history. he was a gamble that didn't work out, but clearly had high potential. Vermette was a 3rd liner at the time who never got it done when given an increased role. If you're going to increase his value based on his development after the trade, you need to account for Lehner's too. He's quite clearly one of the more promising young goalies in the league.



Corvo (with Eaves) was traded for Stillman (and Commodore), who was very good for us. Shame we didn't re-sign him, but the trade wasn't bad in and of itself, particularly when you account for Corvo wanting out.

Mez was outperfomed by Kuba every year Kuba was here; maybe we got superior pieces, and mez was overvalued? Redden was signed by Muckler with a NTC that he refused to waive. How is this a Murray issue? Priessing was not a good player, he was carried by those around him.

The real problem was actually the terrible goalies; because of how bad Gerber, Leclaire, Auld, Emery and Elliot were, the team tried to cover up for them with defensive Dmen, and defensive systems (Hartsburg). Clouston could very well have still been here had we not had some of the worst goaltending in the league.

Murray gets accused of horrible coach hirings and not finding good PMD soon enough, but it all stems from the goaltending imo. Gerber should never have been a Sen. Elliot was aweful for us, and while Leclaire was at least an attempt to fix the problem, he cleary busted.

The Goalies were left out to dry. Goaltending was an issue but imo i think defensive zone turnovers certainly made it worse. Are breakout was laughable

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

If both teams wanted him offersheeted, Tbay would have just traded a comparable package to the offersheet compensation. We would have gotten their 1st, 2nd and Picard or some other 3rd equivalent piece. Basically, your making things up to make the trade a loss.

As for Leclaire, he was drafted so high because he had franchise goalie potential. Lots of GMs and scouts thought that. It didn't work out, but that happens some times. Would we have been better off with Vermette? Who knows. He'd have likely been stuck as a third liner here until Fisher was traded, and likely doesn't add full value, but given Leclaire busted, yeah, probably would like to have that one back. Long term though, we have stability at the goaltending position (including a succession plan) for the first time ever. Not sure I'd give that up for Vermette.

I'm either making things up.... or Murray thought Kuba who help the team win now more then picks. Vermette was a 20 goal scorer in Ottawa and certainly a big piece of the secondary scoring.

As for Tampa offer sheeting Mez google it you'll find probably a dozen articles saying tampa offer sheeted him or wanted to offer sheet him. So you either have to believe they were bluffing to force murray to make a trade or they really wanted to offer sheet him. Considering Mez signed the exact same contract rumoured in most those article i think they did dicuss the contract mez would sign after an offer sheet

 

[tony d]

Low payroll is the biggest part of the Senators problems.

 

[Micklebot]

The Goalies were left out to dry. Goaltending was an issue but imo i think defensive zone turnovers certainly made it worse. Are breakout was laughable

07-08 19th in shots against (Gerber, still had Mez and Redden, Corvo traded mid season)
08-09 6th in shots against (Auld/Elliot, Redden + Corvo gone, Mez traded)
09-10 4th in shots against (Elliot/Leclaire, )

If that's being left out to dry, I don't even what to know what todays team is doing.
The reallity is we addressed the sloppy D and clamped down, allowing far fewer shots, but sacrificed our transition game. Goaltending let us down, not the D. We were getting average goal support, high end shot supression, and league low goaltending.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

07-08 19th in shots against (Gerber, still had Mez and Redden, Corvo traded mid season)
08-09 6th in shots against (Auld/Elliot, Redden + Corvo gone, Mez traded)
09-10 4th in shots against (Elliot/Leclaire, )

If that's being left out to dry, I don't even what to know what todays team is doing.
The reallity is we addressed the sloppy D and clamped down, allowing far fewer shots, but sacrificed our transition game. Goaltending let us down, not the D. We were getting average goal support, high end shot supression, and league low goaltending.

I was thinking more defensive zone turnovers leading to high quality scoring chances. No doubt goaltending was below average though

 

[Micklebot]

I'm either making things up.... or Murray thought Kuba who help the team win now more then picks. Vermette was a 20 goal scorer in Ottawa and certainly a big piece of the secondary scoring.

As for Tampa offer sheeting Mez google it you'll find probably a dozen articles saying tampa offer sheeted him or wanted to offer sheet him. So you either have to believe they were bluffing to force murray to make a trade or they really wanted to offer sheet him. Considering Mez signed the exact same contract rumoured in most those article i think they did dicuss the contract mez would sign after an offer sheet

The making things up part is that they could offer sheet him. Pitts had the 3rd, and weren't giving it back. It was never an option. So saying we could have held out for an offer sheet is makebelieve.

The other thing worth considering is that when the trade happened, the 1st wasn't a 2nd overall, it was yet to be determined. TBay was expected to be much better too, some had them making the playoffs in the preseason predictions.

 

[TheNewEra]

probably mentioned, but it was the keeping redden over chara for me, one wanted to stay the other wanted value. on top of that we kept the local flavor instead of the defenceman projected to be better. **** even if both declined at the same rate i would have rather had the tower on defence. we have been trying to recover ever since imo, especially in terms of defenceman

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

The making things up part is that they could offer sheet him. Pitts had the 3rd, and weren't giving it back. It was never an option. So saying we could have held out for an offer sheet is makebelieve.

The other thing worth considering is that when the trade happened, the 1st wasn't a 2nd overall, it was yet to be determined. TBay was expected to be much better too, some had them making the playoffs in the preseason predictions.

So youre saying pitt trading back the 3rd was impossible. I never made anything up. I stated Shero was reluctant to discuss offer sheets with the media because he didnt believe in them. Had Murray approached Shero telling him he wanted them to offer sheet him maybe Shero changes his mind. I think Shero is a reasonable person and probably wouldnt work in a mind set that he wouldnt trade a 3rd round pick for something valued higher.

 

[coladin]

Wow is it April already??? Still lots of hockey, development going on this year...

 

[Micklebot]

I was thinking more defensive zone turnovers leading to high quality scoring chances. No doubt goaltending was below average though

As I recall, our problem in the defensive zone was our breakout consisted of chiping it up the boards, not so much turnover in dangerous areas. We did turn the puck over more than we should have, but that was because the opposition would seal the boards. It wasn't really giving up the high quality chances (like we've seen this year and last), but rather getting hemmed in a bit. Truth is, if we're top ten in the league in shots against, and middle of the road in goals per game, we should be a good team. Goaltending destroyed us, and while management tried to address that with Leclaire, it failed. Too bad high end goaltending wasn't as readily available then as it was more recently with Bishop, Anderson, Luongo, Schnieder, Bobrovski, Hillier, and Varlamov being available at one time or another.

 

[Minister of Offence]

Just spend money. Rather or not it works out - time would tell.

One thing is for sure, we aren't winning a damn thing without having a respectable payroll.

To be fair to the team, payroll is up next year with new contracts kicking in, couple RFAs are due.

If they have money and are waiting until there is a stable and secured core in place before they add around it, fine. I think we have reason to doubt that's the actual plan, but we should find out over the next year or two

Everyone knows we aren't competing as things are, the plan is not to compete this year. Chances are, the plan is to keep the ship from sinking while someone tries to get their financial situation righted.

If you draft and develop well and have enough cash to keep these players past entry level you have a chance as long as more money is coming at some point. They aren't wrong to say anyone can spend (Melnyk was that anyone at a time), but at some point we will have to spend smart.

Patience until then . Assuming that day is comin

 

[Bileur]

Therein lies the problem. Muckler needed someone else to get him the pieces. He couldn't do it again unless someone stocked the cupboard for him. Great GM.

Exactly. If anything this thread should be about Marshall Johnston.

Muckler took a fortress of a system and put it on bamboo stilts dooming it to fail.

Horrible asset management, unbelievably horrible drafting, horrible trades.

 

[Sensinitis]

The decline started and was constant from the moment we lost good players like Chara and Havlat for nothing. Hossa is a different story because we got Heatley at least.

I think the decline started in 2005-06. The year after, we went to the Finals and it looked like our window was closing. Lots of old players on the team. McAmmond, Alfie, Schaefer, Redden, Phillips, Fisher, Kelly, Neil, etc. By old I mean 30's, for argument's sake.

I also believe the decline was cemented in the summer after the Finals, when all Murray did was minor moves like trading Schaefer for Donovan... At the time, it was clear we lost because of a lack of depth. Obviously, Anaheim was a powerhouse though.

Summer 07 was the time to make some shrewd moves IMO. We were coming off a good season. We lost in the Finals but it was the time to put the team over the top, or to make some sort of change. I remember hearing the team made a goal in the beginning of the season to never lose two games in a row.

The top line was still there, but maybe it was time to make a package trade with Vermette/Fisher/Corvo/Eaves/etc. We had pieces that were expendable and that had value. Proof is that all those pieces were traded a year later and got solid returns. Too little too late though. Return could've been better in the summer of 07.

Just my 2 cents. Some changes should've been made after the Finals. The team wasn't young anymore and it looked like their window was closing, at least to me. Instead of spreading the decline over another year or two, might've been time to make at least some sort of medium or slightly major change to acquire more depth and change the team a bit.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Letting go of jesse Winchester.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Where we went wrong was this fanbase never learning to adjust their expectations. They took for granted all those years of making the playoffs and just assume that we deserve to be there every year. Doesn't work that way kids.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Where we went wrong was this fanbase never learning to adjust their expectations. They took for granted all those years of making the playoffs and just assume that we deserve to be there every year. Doesn't work that way kids.

youre saying this as if we run the team.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

Murray is the King of Low Expectations. He is also the king of low expectations (expectations are really, really low with hin around - Edit). We will never see a Cup run under his reign because he is love with players he identifies with: untalented, slow, hard-working pluggers. Sadly, you do not win cups with untalented, slow, hard-working pluggers.

Murray and his nepotism and drama should have been axed years ago. Unfortunately it is health issues and not mediocrity which will push him out.

 

[Micklebot]

youre saying this as if we run the team.

He's saying this franchise never went wrong, that this is just part of the natural ebb and flow of a hockey team.

Agree or disagree, his statement has nothing to do with moves that were or weren't made, but simply that the fanbases expectations needed to adjust with the changing reality, and haven't.

I think he's in part right, although there certainly have been mistakes made by management to get us where we are, no team has been perfect.

 

[HSF]

new excuses by fans every year

last year it was spezza

year before it was cause of injuries

year before was cause we didn't play our youth


maybe we just need to have some patience and let the young guys develop and maybe get a top 10 pick

 

[blahblah3]

Murray is the King of Low Expectations. He is also the king of low expectations. We will never see a Cup run under his reign because he is love with players he identifies with: untalented, slow, hard-working pluggers. Sadly, you do not win cups with untalented, slow, hard-working pluggers.

Murray and his nepotism and drama should have been axed years ago. Unfortunately it is health issues and not mediocrity which will push him out.

If they had the hard working part they would be a respectable team. Unfortunately, they are lazy as hell.

 

[blahblah3]

new excuses by fans every year

last year it was spezza

year before it was cause of injuries

year before was cause we didn't play our youth


maybe we just need to have some patience and let the young guys develop and maybe get a top 10 pick

Not true. Most people agreed that Phillips, Spezza, Michalek, Neil, Greening and Coach and defense as a whole were all part of the problem. Little has changed.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

He's saying this franchise never went wrong, that this is just part of the natural ebb and flow of a hockey team.

Agree or disagree, his statement has nothing to do with moves that were or weren't made, but simply that the fanbases expectations needed to adjust with the changing reality, and haven't.

I think he's in part right, although there certainly have been mistakes made by management to get us where we are, no team has been perfect.

I think expectations are pretty tame.. is anyone surprised were right in the thick of a playoff battle right now?

Its where we are going that have some of us worried...

 

[BrawlFan]

Melnyk being greedy. /thread