Where we went wrong.....

[Vesa Awesaka]

Who is to say we wouldn't have been more of a contender or destination if we were a cap-ceiling teaml or closer to it?

Again -> hypothetical question, hypothetical answers.

I know what your saying but we were a cap ceiling team and we sold off those pieces and declared a rebuild. Sure we made the playoffs twice since the declared rebuild but both times the team made it as a fringe team that didnt look that great imo. I dont think at any point once we declared the rebuild that pieces were available that would have wanted to come here that would have made a difference.

Were not more of a contender because we declared a rebuild and sold away good players. I doubt most good players want to come to rebuilding team. The difference is there are cap teams with attractive talent that are contending versus the sens going through a rebuild. I have yet to even hear of a case where the budget has stopped a deal or stopped us from resigning a player. Hell we threw 4mil at milan michalek and were willing to take on salary in a nashville trade because we thought it was better then the dallas trade. We didnt accept the dallas trade to save a few bucks.

The edmonton oilers are a good example of a cap team thats willing to throw money at FAs and yet they still for the most part dont want to go there unless their fringe guys.

 

[BonkTastic]

Hell we threw 4mil at milan michalek and were willing to take on salary in a nashville trade because we thought it was better then the dallas trade. We didnt accept the dallas trade to save a few bucks.

We only paid Michalek after the Spezza-to-Nashville deal fell through. I doubt we retain Michalek if we bring back that salary from Nashville. Heck, we needed Milo's contract just to make it to the cap floor - we're not cap compliant without him.

The edmonton oilers are a good example of...

The Edmonton Oilers are a good example of just how dysfunctional a professional hockey team can be, and should never be used as an example of anything except for the levels of professional incompetence that people can sink to while somehow maintaining their careers and a steady paycheque.

 

[HispanicAtTheDisco]

Muckler had no freaking clue what to do with the pieces.

a) Traded McEachern away for Pothier (meh)
b) Traded Salo away for Schaefer (we traded away the better player)
c) Traded Klepis for Varada (salvaged his own terrible 1st round bust for a 3rd liner)
d) Traded Tim Gleason for Smolinksi (again, salvaged his botched 1st rounder... the "botched 1st rounder" being a recurring theme)
e) Traded Brooks Laich and a 2nd for three weeks worth of Petr Bondra
f) Traded Rachunek for de Vries (who was so bad with us we had to force Atlanta to take him in the Heatley deal to shed his salary)
g) Traded Radek Bonk for a 3rd rounder (Peter Regin - Bonk was a better player for Nashville & Montreal than Regin ever was for us)
h) Traded Lalime for a 4th (meh)
i) Traded Hossa (and de Vries) for Heatley (boooo)
j) Traded a 2nd round pick (plus Bochenski, whatever) for Tyler goddamned freaking Arnason ('nuff said)
k) Traded Havlat & Smolinski for Tom Preissing/Josh Hennessey/Michael Barinka/ 2nd rounder (dear lord, please, god... no)

... the only... and I mean ONLY trade I can think of that Muckler made that we even came CLOSE to winning was getting Mike Comrie (in his first run with us) for Alexei Kaigorodov. Can you name me a single other trade we won? Any? Any at all? Because right now, I have his record at 1 win and 11 losses.



In fact, I'll go so far as to say that I think we might have ACTUALLY won a cup if we had a different GM. Muckler put us in the hole time and time again, with nothing to show for it. He was part of what PREVENTED us from getting a cup, not what was helping us towards it. Almost every elite player on our team was acquired by other Sens GMs before Mucks got here and "Muck'ed" it all up.

I would just like to point out that Murray has had a better trade history than MucMuckler, only including the bigger trades we end up with these.

1. Peter Schaefer for Shean Donovan. (I'd call this one a win for us, but not by much)
2. Patrick Eaves and Joe Corvo for Cory Stillman and Mike Commodore. (A small loss for us on this one)
3. Andrej Mezaros for Filip Kuba, Alexandre Picard and a 1st. (This one was pretty good for us, I'd say it's a win)
4. Dean McAmmond and a 1st for chris Campoli and Mike Comrie. (And right back with another loss, gave up the 1st for basically Campoli)
5. Antoine Vermette for Pascal Leclaire and a 2nd. (I'd say even because we got Lehner with the pick, Leclaire had potential but couldn't stay healthy)
6. Dany Heatley and a 5th for Milan Michalek, Jonathan Cheechoo and a 2nd. (Still not sure what to call this, I'd say win because of Heatley's downfall)
7. Alexandre Picard and a 2nd for Matt Cullen (Loss, didn't retain our asset)
8. A 2nd for Andy Sutton (Loss, Same as the Cullen thing)
9. A 1st for David Rundblad (If you look at it as Tarasenko for Rundblad than its a loss, I'll say a slight loss because draft ranks are different for every team.)
10. Mike Fisher for a 1st and a 3rd. (Win, bonus points for getting him to Nashville)
11. Chris Kelly for a 2nd (Win, Kelly is and always was a 4th liner [Still love the guy though])
12. Brian Elliott for Craig Anderson (Big win on this one)
13. Chris Campoli for Ryan Poultny and a 2nd (Win, we managed to salvage a pick)
14. A 3rd for Nikita Filatov (We knew the risk in this trade so I'll say even)
15. David Rundblad and a 2nd for Kyle Turris (Win, Rundblad is a bust)
16. A 2nd for Ben Bishop (We went from no legit goalies to three very quickly, win)
17. Nick Foligno for Marc Methot (Win for both teams)
18. Ben Bishop for Cory Conacher and a 4th (Huge loss for us)
19. Jakob Silfverberg, Stefan Noesen, and a 1st for Bobby Ryan. (With Alfie leaving we needed some good news, win)
20. A 3rd and a 5th for Ales Hemsky. (Loss, more poor asset management)
21. Jason Spezza and Ludwig Karlsson for Alex Chiasson, Alexander Guptill, Nick Paul and a 2nd. (Tough to say, still too soon)

That gives us 11 wins, 7 losses, 2 even, and 1 that is still too soon to say (Not counting the 17 or so that we're very minor deals). I would say that Murray has Don very well with trading.

 

[supsens]

I would just like to point out that Murray has had a better trade history than MucMuckler, only including the bigger trades we end up with these.

1. Peter Schaefer for Shean Donovan. (I'd call this one a win for us, but not by much)
2. Patrick Eaves and Joe Corvo for Cory Stillman and Mike Commodore. (A small loss for us on this one)
3. Andrej Mezaros for Filip Kuba, Alexandre Picard and a 1st. (This one was pretty good for us, I'd say it's a win)
4. Dean McAmmond and a 1st for chris Campoli and Mike Comrie. (And right back with another loss, gave up the 1st for basically Campoli)
5. Antoine Vermette for Pascal Leclaire and a 2nd. (I'd say even because we got Lehner with the pick, Leclaire had potential but couldn't stay healthy)
6. Dany Heatley and a 5th for Milan Michalek, Jonathan Cheechoo and a 2nd. (Still not sure what to call this, I'd say win because of Heatley's downfall)
7. Alexandre Picard and a 2nd for Matt Cullen (Loss, didn't retain our asset)
8. A 2nd for Andy Sutton (Loss, Same as the Cullen thing)
9. A 1st for David Rundblad (If you look at it as Tarasenko for Rundblad than its a loss, I'll say a slight loss because draft ranks are different for every team.)
10. Mike Fisher for a 1st and a 3rd. (Win, bonus points for getting him to Nashville)
11. Chris Kelly for a 2nd (Win, Kelly is and always was a 4th liner [Still love the guy though])
12. Brian Elliott for Craig Anderson (Big win on this one)
13. Chris Campoli for Ryan Poultny and a 2nd (Win, we managed to salvage a pick)
14. A 3rd for Nikita Filatov (We knew the risk in this trade so I'll say even)
15. David Rundblad and a 2nd for Kyle Turris (Win, Rundblad is a bust)
16. A 2nd for Ben Bishop (We went from no legit goalies to three very quickly, win)
17. Nick Foligno for Marc Methot (Win for both teams)
18. Ben Bishop for Cory Conacher and a 4th (Huge loss for us)
19. Jakob Silfverberg, Stefan Noesen, and a 1st for Bobby Ryan. (With Alfie leaving we needed some good news, win)
20. A 3rd and a 5th for Ales Hemsky. (Loss, more poor asset management)
21. Jason Spezza and Ludwig Karlsson for Alex Chiasson, Alexander Guptill, Nick Paul and a 2nd. (Tough to say, still too soon)

That gives us 11 wins, 7 losses, 2 even, and 1 that is still too soon to say (Not counting the 17 or so that we're very minor deals). I would say that Murray has Don very well with trading.

6 and 14 and 21 loss.

 

[BonkTastic]

6 and 14 and 21 loss.

OK, you lost me. You're going to have to elaborate.

 

[supsens]

OK, you lost me. You're going to have to elaborate.

who cares what heater is now, at the time of the trade he was the man and the who's who of scoring goals
Spezza we didn't get anything of value back
and the other is a thrown away draft pick knowing there was a risk means nothing, i can bet 10 000 on the flip of a coin and just because I knew the risk does not mean the loss isn't real

 

[BonkTastic]

who cares what heater is now, at the time of the trade he was the man and the who's who of scoring goals
Spezza we didn't get anything of value back
and the other is a thrown away draft pick knowing there was a risk means nothing, i can bet 10 000 on the flip of a coin and just because I knew the risk does not mean the loss isn't real

I was more referring to 6+14+21.

 

[supsens]

Number 6 number 14 and number 21 on his list?

 

[BonkTastic]

Number 6 number 14 and number 21 on his list?

OH, THAT.


Well, I'm dumb/ been drinking for a few hours already.

 

[supsens]

OH, THAT.


Well, I'm dumb/ been drinking for a few hours already.

sokay I'm dumb and i never drink

 

[Burrowsaurus]

We went wrong when we traded hossa and didn't draft kopitar.... the draft situation is totally hindsight on my part though. I was young at the time but I remember actually liking brian lee, having watched him in like 3 straight WJC's. And I don't remember the hype around kopitar going into the draft.

And then we probably started the rebuild 1-2 seasons too late. those seasons of us trying to get into the playoffs and giving the old guard a last chance to get the cup probably shouldn't have happened. losing volchenkov to free agency, redden... bad choices in my mind.. but then again, I say that because we are in a rough patch of our current rebuild, so it would have been nice to start it earlier and be out of it right now.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

We should've kept the Peacetower jersey. That's where we ultimately went wrong.

 

[Benjamin]

Im not a fan of Murray at all but I'd take him easily over Muckler.

 

[Busboy]

Muckler also let a franchise defenseman in Chara walk. He traded Hossa for Heatley and traded Havlat away for peanuts.

Imagine those three on The Senators when they played the Ducks.

Or imagine if Murray had made those moves. This board would crucify him.

Muckler did a fine job. There's some nostalgic romanticism going on it this thread though.

Murray has been good enough. The team has been above average league wide since he's taken over. We went through some unique challenges (Heatley, finances, Emery...) but the team still has seen growth in it's youth and prospects department.

 

[Minister of Offence]

Like a number of you on here, I too am becoming apathetic at the performance of this team over the last several years. As a fan it's difficult to tune in game after game, year after year and see the tires sputtering - a little forward and a little backwards with no real progress being made.

I like Bryan Murray and I think he has a great hockey mind, but I often think what a terrible decision this franchise made back seven years ago after it reached it's highest achievement in modern franchise history.

I cannot recall any other team in any major sport reaching the finals and then replacing their coach and general manager the following season. Why the hell would any team do this? We finally found a successful combination of personnel management and coaching - and then we changed everything the next season.

Bryan Murray was a great coach, he took this franchise further than any other coach had before. He had the right mix of experience, moxy, composure, and nurturing behind the bench. Muckler, for all his faults, did assemble a team worthy of reaching the Stanley Cup finals. We had the single best line in hockey, a speedy puck moving defense with one of the best shutdown pair in the game.

Muckler had, what I believe, is incredible clout and respect in the hockey world. He was able to attract players like Hasek to come to this franchise. He was able to go out, swing a deal, and get the players the team needed when they needed it. Not to mention he was a great negotiator. Remember when he almost had Redden, Chara, and Hossa all locked up to identical deals on salary and term? Redden and Chara were on board but Hossa nixed the deal (all part of the sour relationship and sign/trade afterwards).

The very next season after we went to the finals for the first time in franchise history, we changed GMs and coaches. In the front office we lost the legendary status and respect of Muckler, and turned into a house of nepotism and hardline tactics. Behind the bench we saw a revolving door of Jr level coaches totally destroy the chemistry of this one champion bound team.

Since then we broke up the best line in hockey, and sold them off for spare parts. Our defense became slow, young, and mistake prone. The on ice face of the franchise walked away to play his final year for another team. We have had a revolving door of goaltenders, only finally to be straightened out by a journeyman goaltender who's former team traded him for next to nothing just to move him out of town.

When we look at our team now what real improvements can we see from seven years ago when this horrible decision was made? We tout our prospects but which among them besides Karlsson has really worked? The book is still out on Zbad and Cowen. Silfverberg is gone. Stone, Prince, Puempel, Hoffman, - are these the guys that are going to be bona fide NHL players leading this team (any team) into the stanley cup?

I have been patient, and I know lots of other fanbases have suffered longer, but I am starting to really lose my hope and enthusiasm for this franchise while under the master plan of the Murray clan. I understand why everyone was high on the guy after '07 - but man, its been a long and dark ride under his hand ever since.

Any team, especially a small market, that goes through a period of bad draft/development will not survive. If that small market team has a 40-50 goal scorer want out, and decides to keep a dman that fell off the face of the earth instead of a perrennial Norris contender and one Of the games most feared players - it's much worse.

People focus too much on secondary issues. The team built up assets very poorly for a lengthy time while they contended after years of very successful drafting. And we also lost chara, redden, heatley for nothing.

Now we spend on a budget.

 

[Minister of Offence]

Why are the oilers so bad?

Small market team, drafted/developed absurdly bad though 2000s. Still hurts. Takes a while to fix that in markets that don't get free agent love.

The only reason we have certain players with value is draft. Goes to show how bad it is to go through a period without.

 

[jbeck5]

Whats the difference on this team if we have max payroll though? Maybe a Clarkson? Only things i think Murray did wrong were coaches and lack of a PMD which crippled the SCFs team.

Not having a Pmd crippled the 07 team? Redden,meszaros,corvo,and preissing were all pmd.

Only phillips and volchenkov were not.

Now our d is built the opposite way.

 

[Micklebot]

Im not a fan of Murray at all but I'd take him easily over Muckler.

I honestly can't believe there are people that still defend Muckler.

Anyhow, to answer the question of where the team went wrong, it really depends on what you think the teams goals are.

Obvious turning points:
Trading Havlat for scraps (not really a turning point, but what the heck)
Trading Hossa for Heatley (actually worked out short term)
Choosing Redden over Chara (bad, bad, bad... but seemed close to neutral at the time)
Drafting Lee over Kopitar/Staal/Bourdon (jebus what was wrong with him...)
Hiring Hartsberg/Clouston (team was already reeling, no coach was saving us with Elliot/Gerber/Leclaire in nets)
Trading Heatley for scraps
Not replacing Gonchar or Kuba (Honestly thing this one stalled what looked like a promising team)
Alfie Leaving the way he did
Trading Spezza for scraps

To me, the ones that had the most impact all have to do with the defense.

Redden over Chara is clearly a huge gaff in hindsight. Team is much better with a Norris calibur defender than Redden regressing.

Drafting Lee over Staal, Bourdon or Kopitar is just mind boggling. It was highly questionable at the time, and even more so now.

Not replacing Gonchar and Kuba really set us back. Methot is probably a good replacement for what Kuba offered (different strengths and weaknesses) but Gonchar left and we hoped Wiercioch was the answer. I know both Kuba and Gonchar regressed, but we should have at least tried to replace them with credible options. Let the young guys force their way up the lineup not be given spots. This issue is budget driven if you ask me.

All that said, it comes back to what expectations were. When we traded Havlat, we were a cup favourite. Same for the Hossa Heatley swap, Drafting Lee and choosing Redden over Chara.

Not replacing Kuba/Gonchar, trading Spezza and Alfie leaving were all during a rebuild. The expectation is and was to take a step back but allow the young players to grow. I think we over estimated how far along our young D corps was, and are paying the price both in on ice performance, and in thier development. We should have gone after a vet top 4 D imo to transition, but Idk what realistic options there really were.

We could have traded Spezza earlier; maybe we could have gotten a similar package to what Philly got for Richards had we traded him after his strong 11/12 season, but hindsight is 20/20, his back injury seems to have really affected his play.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

I would just like to point out that Murray has had a better trade history than MucMuckler, only including the bigger trades we end up with these.

1. Peter Schaefer for Shean Donovan. (I'd call this one a win for us, but not by much)
2. Patrick Eaves and Joe Corvo for Cory Stillman and Mike Commodore. (A small loss for us on this one)
3. Andrej Mezaros for Filip Kuba, Alexandre Picard and a 1st. (This one was pretty good for us, I'd say it's a win) Loss if you think we could have gotten pit to give the 3rd back and then have had mez offer sheeted and ended up with Hedman
4. Dean McAmmond and a 1st for chris Campoli and Mike Comrie. (And right back with another loss, gave up the 1st for basically Campoli)
5. Antoine Vermette for Pascal Leclaire and a 2nd. (I'd say even because we got Lehner with the pick, Leclaire had potential but couldn't stay healthy)Loss LeClaire was a negative and never had good numbers. Even before Ottawa LeClaire was bad. Lehner salvaged it. but i would rather of had Vermette right now instead of having lehner as back up. Its a loss until Lehner proves hes a starter
6. Dany Heatley and a 5th for Milan Michalek, Jonathan Cheechoo and a 2nd. (Still not sure what to call this, I'd say win because of Heatley's downfall)
7. Alexandre Picard and a 2nd for Matt Cullen (Loss, didn't retain our asset)
8. A 2nd for Andy Sutton (Loss, Same as the Cullen thing)
9. A 1st for David Rundblad (If you look at it as Tarasenko for Rundblad than its a loss, I'll say a slight loss because draft ranks are different for every team.)
10. Mike Fisher for a 1st and a 3rd. (Win, bonus points for getting him to Nashville)Left better deals on the table to get him to Nashville. Also ended up helping Legwand choose the sens over other teams because Fisher talked up Ottawa to Legs
11. Chris Kelly for a 2nd (Win, Kelly is and always was a 4th liner [Still love the guy though])
12. Brian Elliott for Craig Anderson (Big win on this one)
13. Chris Campoli for Ryan Poultny and a 2nd (Win, we managed to salvage a pick)
14. A 3rd for Nikita Filatov (We knew the risk in this trade so I'll say even)
15. David Rundblad and a 2nd for Kyle Turris (Win, Rundblad is a bust)
16. A 2nd for Ben Bishop (We went from no legit goalies to three very quickly, win)
17. Nick Foligno for Marc Methot (Win for both teams)
18. Ben Bishop for Cory Conacher and a 4th (Huge loss for us)
19. Jakob Silfverberg, Stefan Noesen, and a 1st for Bobby Ryan. (With Alfie leaving we needed some good news, win)
20. A 3rd and a 5th for Ales Hemsky. (Loss, more poor asset management)
21. Jason Spezza and Ludwig Karlsson for Alex Chiasson, Alexander Guptill, Nick Paul and a 2nd. (Tough to say, still too soon)

That gives us 11 wins, 7 losses, 2 even, and 1 that is still too soon to say (Not counting the 17 or so that we're very minor deals). I would say that Murray has Don very well with trading.

Revised

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Not having a Pmd crippled the 07 team? Redden,meszaros,corvo,and preissing were all pmd.

Only phillips and volchenkov were not.

Now our d is built the opposite way.

He traded Corvo for scrap, mez for a package of inferior players at the time(mez fell off from injuries but was VERY highly regarded) and Redden was falling off a cliff till he left as an FA. Preissing left as an FA. The 07 team was still capable but he quickly dismantled it. Not talking just about the 07 team im talking about why a team with good players fell off. We were known to have a terrible breakout for years. The goalies were left out to dry by the defense turning over the puck on the break out. Losing guys like you mentioned also left Murray trying to aquire a PMD for 5 years. Giving us crap players like Picard, Campoli, Lundin and Gilroy

 

[Micklebot]

Revised

Your revisions come from makebelieve land, the offersheet was never a realistic scenario. Playing "what if" is absurd. I guess it's a loss because we could have traded him to Pittsburgh for Crosby too. Had TBay actually wanted to offersheet him, they would have offered up their own first, and a comparable part to replace the 3rd.

Leclaire had one good year (9 shutouts, .919 sv%), and an injury history. he was a gamble that didn't work out, but clearly had high potential. Vermette was a 3rd liner at the time who never got it done when given an increased role. If you're going to increase his value based on his development after the trade, you need to account for Lehner's too. He's quite clearly one of the more promising young goalies in the league.

He traded Corvo for scrap, mez for a package of inferior players at the time(mez fell off from injuries but was VERY highly regarded) and Redden was falling off a cliff till he left as an FA. Preissing left as an FA. The 07 team was still capable but he quickly dismantled it. Not talking just about the 07 team im talking about why a team with good players fell off. We were known to have a terrible breakout for years. The goalies were left out to dry by the defense turning over the puck on the break out. Losing guys like you mentioned also left Murray trying to aquire a PMD for 5 years. Giving us crap players like Picard, Campoli, Lundin and Gilroy

Corvo (with Eaves) was traded for Stillman (and Commodore), who was very good for us. Shame we didn't re-sign him, but the trade wasn't bad in and of itself, particularly when you account for Corvo wanting out.

Mez was outperfomed by Kuba every year Kuba was here; maybe we got superior pieces, and mez was overvalued? Redden was signed by Muckler with a NTC that he refused to waive. How is this a Murray issue? Priessing was not a good player, he was carried by those around him.

The real problem was actually the terrible goalies; because of how bad Gerber, Leclaire, Auld, Emery and Elliot were, the team tried to cover up for them with defensive Dmen, and defensive systems (Hartsburg). Clouston could very well have still been here had we not had some of the worst goaltending in the league.

Murray gets accused of horrible coach hirings and not finding good PMD soon enough, but it all stems from the goaltending imo. Gerber should never have been a Sen. Elliot was aweful for us, and while Leclaire was at least an attempt to fix the problem, he cleary busted.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Your revisions come from makebelieve land, the offersheet was never a realistic scenario. Playing "what if" is absurd. I guess it's a loss because we could have traded him to Pittsburgh for Crosby too. Had TBay actually wanted to offersheet him, they would have offered up their own first, and a comparable part to replace the 3rd.

Leclaire had one good year (9 shutouts, .919 sv%), and an injury history. he was a gamble that didn't work out, but clearly had high potential. Vermette was a 3rd liner at the time who never got it done when given an increased role. If you're going to increase his value based on his development after the trade, you need to account for Lehner's too. He's quite clearly one of the more promising young goalies in the league.

Youre telling me a it was impossible to get a pitt to trade back a third even though both teams wanted him offersheeted. Would we have been a better team for the last 5 years with LeClaire+Lehner or Vermette. Would we be a better team now with Lehner or Vermette? It can be argued if Lehner becomes a number one and are Franchise goalie and supplants anderson its a win but Lehner has done barely anything for this team until then. Maybe they did offer their own first but for some reason Murray wanted an aging Kuba. The offersheet is more realistic then your scenario considering it was rumored in the media and discussed by gms. Leclaire also had 4 bad years too some in the AHL and a injury history before arriving. Why was LeClaire even drafted so high?

Bottom line LeClaire was a model of inconsistency which was made worse by his constant injury issues.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Revised

okay whats with people and the meszaros deal... I think I missed out on that particular rumour... what could we have gotten? and why?

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

okay whats with people and the meszaros deal... I think I missed out on that particular rumour... what could we have gotten? and why?

Tampa was going to offer sheet him but they did not have their 3rd round pick and were told by the NHL they couldnt use another teams 3rd which they had. Had they gotten pitt to trade back the third and then offer sheeted him we would have ended up With a young Hedman instead of an old Kuba, the 31 overall pick and the 61 overall pick. Murray worked out a deal which could only be deemed of him accepting what he thought was equivalent or possibly better then an offersheet. Kuba, Picard and a 3rd

It must be noted that Shero who owned Tampa's 3rd seemed reluctant to discuss with the media trading it back as he was against offersheets. Some in the media also though Tampa might just be posturing to force Ottawa to trade Mez too. Saying its a make belief scenario is laughable because it sure has hell was probably talked about by Murray at the time.

 

[OttawaSenators11]

Just spend money. Rather or not it works out - time would tell.

One thing is for sure, we aren't winning a damn thing without having a respectable payroll.