Where does Scott Niedermayer rank?

[william_adams]

Somewhere around 35th or so.

Was always very good, but prior to 2003 he was rarely great.

Also had the luxury of the the #2 defenseman on his own team for the great majority of his career (Stevens/Pronger).

Hmm. #2 defenseman eh? So from 1997-98, there was exactly one non-injury or non-retirement-interrupted season where he was out-minuted by Pronger or Stevens: in 08/09 he played a full one second less per game than Pronger.

Stevens never won a Norris, Pronger won the same as Nieds: one. Incidentally, the time he won it was when Stevens was forced into retirement halfway through the season.

And to Mr. FakeKidPoker:
If needs has always needed Pronger or Stevens, then how bout the reverse eh?? Even truer I'd say!

Not saying they weren't great players, but

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hmm. #2 defenseman eh? So from 1997-98, there was exactly one non-injury or non-retirement-interrupted season where he was out-minuted by Pronger or Stevens: in 08/09 he played a full one second less per game than Pronger.

I knew I'd see the day when Scott Niedermayer was called the Devil's #1 defenseman based on minutes. Sigh...

Niedermayer was able to play slightly more minutes than Scott Stevens because Stevens took all the tough minutes. Stevens was used on the PK more than any other defenseman since the 1970s (overpass posted the stast before), and he was strictly linematched against the opponent's top lines. Niedermayer played both special teams (Stevens didn't) and played as much of the game as possible against the opponent's lesser lines.

Anyone who paid more than a passing attention to hockey knows that Scott Stevens was the Devil's #1 defenseman pretty much until he was forced to retire.

Stevens never won a Norris, Pronger won the same as Nieds: one. Incidentally, the time he won it was when Stevens was forced into retirement halfway through the season.

But there is more to being a great defenseman than just winning the Norris. Stevens was a star for most of his career. Pronger was a star for pretty much all of his. Niedermayer was a star for really only 4 season.

And to Mr. FakeKidPoker:
If needs has always needed Pronger or Stevens, then how bout the reverse eh?? Even truer I'd say!

Not saying they weren't great players, but

Er, this might be true in Anaheim where Pronger and Niedermayer were basically co-#1s. But in NJ? Again, Stevens took all the toughest assignments - arguably the toughest assignments that any defenseman took since the league expanded in 1967.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Hmm. #2 defenseman eh? So from 1997-98, there was exactly one non-injury or non-retirement-interrupted season where he was out-minuted by Pronger or Stevens: in 08/09 he played a full one second less per game than Pronger.

Stevens never won a Norris, Pronger won the same as Nieds: one. Incidentally, the time he won it was when Stevens was forced into retirement halfway through the season.

And to Mr. FakeKidPoker:
If needs has always needed Pronger or Stevens, then how bout the reverse eh?? Even truer I'd say!

Not saying they weren't great players, but

Probably the main point people bring up when comparing Niedermayer and Pronger is that Niedermayer wasn't really an elite defenseman until the second half of his career (many consider the 2003 playoffs his coming out party), whereas Pronger has been in that class for most of his career.

 

[william_adams]

I knew I'd see the day when Scott Niedermayer was called the Devil's #1 defenseman based on minutes. Sigh...

Niedermayer was able to play slightly more minutes than Scott Stevens because Stevens took all the tough minutes. Stevens was used on the PK more than any other defenseman since the 1970s (overpass posted the stast before), and he was strictly linematched against the opponent's top lines. Niedermayer played both special teams (Stevens didn't) and played as much of the game as possible against the opponent's lesser lines.

Anyone who paid more than a passing attention to hockey knows that Scott Stevens was the Devil's #1 defenseman pretty much until he was forced to retire.



But there is more to being a great defenseman than just winning the Norris. Stevens was a star for most of his career. Pronger was a star for pretty much all of his. Niedermayer was a star for really only 4 season.



Er, this might be true in Anaheim where Pronger and Niedermayer were basically co-#1s. But in NJ? Again, Stevens took all the toughest assignments - arguably the toughest assignments that any defenseman took since the league expanded in 1967.

Interesting arguments. It's tough to argue with a devils fan who watched them play together a ton more than me. I have Stevens as the 3rd and Pronger as the 4th best defencemen of the post Bourque era, but you've given me pause when it comes to Stevens.

It is interesting to note though that NEITHER Stevens nor Pronger ever won anything without Niedermayer.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It is interesting to note though that NEITHER Stevens nor Pronger ever won anything without Niedermayer.

I guess it's interesting, but I don't think it means much in terms of who the better player was.

Messier won without Gretzky, but Gretzky never won without Messier, but only an insane person would rank Mess over Gretz.

 

[begbeee]

I guess it's interesting, but I don't think it means much in terms of who the better player was.

Messier won without Gretzky, but Gretzky never won without Messier, but only an insane person would rank Mess over Gretz.

That´s why he has a label of the leader and captain. (Not sure if irony or not.)

I have to agree that it works both ways especially with Pronger. I dont believe Nieds was essential for Stevens´ winning. But someone had to show Pronger how to win after all those years. I wouldnt call Pronger a choker, but he definetly got his label of playoff warrior just after his first season with Nieds.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

That´s why he has a label of the leader and captain. (Not sure if irony or not.)

I have to agree that it works both ways especially with Pronger. I dont believe Nieds was essential for Stevens´ winning. But someone had to show Pronger how to win after all those years. I wouldnt call Pronger a choker, but he definetly got his label of playoff warrior just after his first season with Nieds.

Wrong again.

What happened in the playoffs the year before Pronger showed up in Anaheim?

Pronger put on a Conn Smythe worthy performance leading the 8th seeded Oilers to the 7th game of the Stanley Cup Finals.

2006 Conference Finals, Pronger's Oilers smoked Niedermayer's favored Ducks, 4 games to 1.

The Ducks then made the big trade for Pronger, who then won the Cup in 2007.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Boy, is there ever some collective amnesia following Niedermayer around. Some of the statements in his favor are pretty much the opposite of fact.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

Boy, is there ever some collective amnesia following Niedermayer around. Some of the statements in his favor are pretty much the opposite of fact.

Go on

 

[canucks4ever]

IMO, Gary Suter, Doug Wilson and Sergie Zubov were more consistent than him. Niedermayer has 4 great years, but the rest of his career isn't really worth mentioning.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Go on

See: statements in this thread which were debunked.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I am not a good one to ask about Niedermayer, as my eyeball test and gut method of evaluating shortchanged him. That said, I always thought there was something missing form his game, a verve an intensity maybe. But looking back it was simply the fact that he played a very cotrolled game and he played mostly. for an even more controlled Devils team. I would put him in the 4os somewhere.

This is a great description of Niedermayer for most of his career. A "so many tools but no toolbox" type of guy... until he put it all together in the 2003 playoffs.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

Old bump but just listening to the radio right now in Vancouver.

One writer Ben Kuzma just said Neidermayer has to be top 5..if he didn't play in New Jersey he'd have a million points

 

[tombombadil]

ben kuzma. he writes for the Province, ya? That's the worst damned paper around here, and I barely recognize his name, but i'm pretty sure I've shaken my head at what he's said before. If i'm not wrong he said Bieksa was better than Seabrook, and that Wellwood could play the same role as Sami Pahlsson.

 

[tony d]

Niedermayer was good but it seemed like he needed someone else with him on his pairing to make him better. He's somewhere between 35 and 40 for me on my all-time defenseman list.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Old bump but just listening to the radio right now in Vancouver.

One writer Ben Kuzma just said Neidermayer has to be top 5..if he didn't play in New Jersey he'd have a million points

Yes I heard that too and while I like Nieds this was a total exaggeration IMO.

 

[shadow1]

Top 40 for sure, but no way top-20.

Scott Neidermayer had a great career overall, but the finish was better than the start. At the end of his career he was a consensus top-5 defenseman, but for the majority of it he was not even considered the best defenseman on his own team (Scott Stevens, as if I even need to say it), nor was he as good as guys like Sergei Zubov or Brian Leetch.

I'm relatively young, so going on the guys I've seen play, I can say definitively that Chris Pronger, Niklas Lidstrom, Chris Chelios, Brian Leetch, Rob Blake, Sergei Zubov, Ray Bourque, Al MacInnis, Scott Stevens, and Paul Coffey were better than him.

My $0.02.

 

[kmad]

^ I'd challenge Blake and Zubov from that list.

 

[PearJuice*]

Top 40 for sure, but no way top-20.

Scott Neidermayer had a great career overall, but the finish was better than the start. At the end of his career he was a consensus top-5 defenseman, but for the majority of it he was not even considered the best defenseman on his own team (Scott Stevens, as if I even need to say it), nor was he as good as guys like Sergei Zubov or Brian Leetch.

I'm relatively young, so going on the guys I've seen play, I can say definitively that Chris Pronger, Niklas Lidstrom, Chris Chelios, Brian Leetch, Rob Blake, Sergei Zubov, Ray Bourque, Al MacInnis, Scott Stevens, and Paul Coffey were better than him.

My $0.02.

I agree with every word of this.

 

[Big Phil]

Go on

Basically there is a reason Niedermayer had that gap in his career where he was 31 before he won a Norris. Yes, he wouldn't win it anyway with Lidstrom and Pronger in the way. But it isn't as if the guy was close either. He had a 2nd team all-star in 1998. Then nothing until 2004. Followed up with two first team all-stars after that. Then the most controversial Conn Smythe trophy ever and then that ill-advised "retirment" following the 2007 season. He was never the same after he came back. Then he's done for good in 2010.

Look, the guy was a winner no doubt about it but he teased fans for so long and since it pre-dated the lockout we tend to forget it. The end to end rush in the 1995 final was brilliant. As was the end to end rush against Sweden in the 1996 World Cup. But he left you thirsting for more all the time. You always asked yourself "why can't he do that more?"

Other than 1998 when he had 57 points, he was basically at best a 40 point defenseman - mostly in the 30s - and he didn't round out his defensive game early on either. Then he explodes in the 2003 playoffs, wins the Norris in 2004, wins the World Cup in 2004, and had two more elite seasons after that and another Cup. We just all seemed to forget about his foibles before that. Then after 2007 he didn't do anything noteworthy. We are basically talking about a defenseman who has 4-5 elite seasons at the most. Yes, he frustrated you to no end. He had 0 goals and 6 assists during the Devils march to the Cup final. Niedermayer could do that to you all the time. There was always the underlying feeling that he didn't use his speed or ever reach his potential. I still don't think he did.

Think of it this way. Look at the disapointment Jay Bouwmeester has been. Excellent skater, 6'4", good size, long stride. But hey, everyone knows that but him. He's been awful in his career compared to what he "could" have done. In a way, that was Niedermayer pre-2003. If you are the best skater on the ice at all times you should showcase it, you know, like Coffey or Orr did. So yeah, he's in the HHOF someday because he did a lot of good things, won a lot, etc. and it overshadows the "what if" discussion about him.

But does anyone remember when Niedermayer announced his "retirement" in 2007 and Pierre McGuire conceded he was a top 10 d-man? I cringed. I'd have to look back, but I am pretty sure Robinson was rated behind him on that list. He had Niedermayer at #7 and he was trying to make a case for it! Bottom line, he is at best a top 25 d-man and that might be pushing it. He is clearly behind the usual top 10 and without a doubt behind the normal names that pop up 20-25 like Horton, MacInnis, Stevens, Pronger, Howe, etc.

 

[jkrx]

ben kuzma. he writes for the Province, ya? That's the worst damned paper around here, and I barely recognize his name, but i'm pretty sure I've shaken my head at what he's said before. If i'm not wrong he said Bieksa was better than Seabrook, and that Wellwood could play the same role as Sami Pahlsson.

The writer is not completely off. When Niedermeyer broke into the NHL he was marvelous. I seem to recall an incident in '95 when Niedermeyer did an amazing coast-to-coast and scored, rumour has it that he was yelled at by Lemaire for taking a big risk and after that he had to be more conservative. Hockey from this era has tons of stories like that from offensively gifted d-men that got told to just dump the puck of the plexiglas.

 

[shadow1]

^ I'd challenge Blake and Zubov from that list.

I could understand Rob Blake, as he's arguably the "worst" defenseman on that list. But Sergei Zubov? For me, he's a head and shoulders above Scott Neidermayer.

 

[Big Phil]

I could understand Rob Blake, as he's arguably the "worst" defenseman on that list. But Sergei Zubov? For me, he's a head and shoulders above Scott Neidermayer.

I'd like to see an argument on how Zubov tops Niedermayer. Blake? Yeah there are legions of people that would take him over Niedermayer. Not Zubov though. Heck, my post completely bashed Niedermayer but even I wouldn't put him below Zubov, a guy rarely anyone promotes for the HHOF

 

[shadow1]

I'd like to see an argument on how Zubov tops Niedermayer. Blake? Yeah there are legions of people that would take him over Niedermayer. Not Zubov though. Heck, my post completely bashed Niedermayer but even I wouldn't put him below Zubov, a guy rarely anyone promotes for the HHOF

First and foremost, Sergei Zubov was more consistent and productive offensively than Scott Niedermayer. Zubov had a stretch of 13 years in which he scored at least 42 points (includes 36 points in 38 games during shortened 1994-1995 season), highlighted by leading the eventual Stanley Cup champion New York Rangers in points with 89. Niedermayer, comparatively, had nearly as many as many 30 point seasons as he did 40 point, and not nearly as many 50 point efforts.

Defensively Zubov was a horse, playing insane minutes, which at his peak was 28:50 in 77 GP during the 1999-2000 season. That's the best I can describe Sergei Zubov: a horse. He was Mr. Everything for the Dallas Stars on defense from the second he got there, as Dallas had one of the biggest single season turnarounds in NHL history (26-42-14 to 48-26-8).

It's hard to say bad things about Scott Niedermayer because he was a big part of those great New Jersey Devils teams and one of the better defensemen in the league his whole career. But as I mentioned before and you also pointed out, Niedermayer didn't really take the next step until around 2003-2004, over a decade into his career. To my eyes, Zubov had already been playing at that level since the mid-1990's.

 

[Big Phil]

First and foremost, Sergei Zubov was more consistent and productive offensively than Scott Niedermayer. Zubov had a stretch of 13 years in which he scored at least 42 points (includes 36 points in 38 games during shortened 1994-1995 season), highlighted by leading the eventual Stanley Cup champion New York Rangers in points with 89. Niedermayer, comparatively, had nearly as many as many 30 point seasons as he did 40 point, and not nearly as many 50 point efforts.

Defensively Zubov was a horse, playing insane minutes, which at his peak was 28:50 in 77 GP during the 1999-2000 season.

That's the best I can describe Sergei Zubov. He was Mr. Everything for the Dallas Stars on defense from the second he got there, as Dallas had one of the biggest single season turnarounds in NHL history (26-42-14 to 48-26-8).

It's hard to say bad things about Scott Niedermayer because he was a big part of those great New Jersey Devils teams and one of the better defensemen in the league his whole career.

But as I mentioned before and you also pointed out, Niedermayer didn't really take the next step until around 2003-2004, over a decade into his career. To my eyes, Zubov had already been playing at that level since the mid-1990's.

There is nothing wrong with Zubov's career, he was just never at the Norris-level in his career. Very consistent performer though. In 1994 he has 89 points and isn't even an all-star. Leetch was on the Rangers, but not Zubov. Other than that, his career value is similar to Gonchar. Both good in the postseason, both contributed well, but neither was close to the Norris, not even once. He's above a Desjardins but below Niedermayer for sure. Didn't control the game at the same level.