Where does Scott Niedermayer rank?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by FakeKidPoker*, Aug 18, 2011.

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  1. With the all time defenseman.

    Niedermayer to me has always been a good defenseman but I always felt him to be very overrated though that may just be because of the market I live in where I am not kidding some media will try and peg him into a top 5 defenseman of all time and the best D-man of his generation.

    Now don't get me wrong I like the guy but depending on the generation I might not even have him top 3 of it and I have him nowhere near top 10 all time D-man.
     
  2. Epsilon

    Epsilon #basta

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    Somewhere in the 21-35 range just going off the top of my head. Clearly at best 3rd in his era, and I actually think he might be closer to Blake/Chara at #4/5 than he is to Pronger at #2; it's certainly debatable. A few weeks ago some HOH neophyte was actually trying to argue that he should be ranked ahead of Lidstrom, which was amusing to say the least. He's a clear candidate for the title of "most overrated player in NHL history" at least from the perspective of "average" fans and the media.
     
  3. Pear Juice

    Pear Juice Registered User

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    Somewhere about 21-30 I'd assume. At least he's not in my top 20.
     
  4. begbeee

    begbeee Registered User

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    He is praised for his winning reputation. If someone put the emphasizis on team accomplishments, he could easily overrates him.
     
  5. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    I agree with those who are saying the 20-30 range... once it gets that low I have a harder time estimating.
     
  6. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    I don't see room for him in the Top 25, he's somewhere in the 26-35 range.
     
  7. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    Where was he in TSN's remodelled top 100? Wasn't he in the top 20? If he was, then it was certainly high, since I believe that Pronger was No. 20, and nobody should have Niedermayer ahead of Pronger.

    I'd have Niedermayer somewhere in the 30-40 range. Obviously you love the fact that he was a winner, and such a magnificent player. Skill, creativity, skating and will-to-win were world-class. But once you get out of the top 20, you're looking at guys like Pronger and Gadsby, who should be ahead of Niedermayer.

    His career north of 30 is remarkable. Prior to January 1, 2003, there wouldn't have been any discussions of him for the HHOF. But sometime in 2003, the light went on, and he became the superstar defenceman that he was expected to be. His accomplishments from January 1, 2003, until the end of the 2007 playoffs are incredible.

    Obviously, the peril we have to avoid is overrating him because he just finished his career, and underrating him because we watched him play his entire career. It is a tough, double-edged sword.
     
  8. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    assuming we count niedermayer's generation as after leetch and before chara, i'd put him either 3rd or 4th. definitely no higher than 3rd, but also definitely no lower than 4th.

    blake has taken a beating in the blake/murphy thread, with people talking about him like he was phaneuf or jovanovski, but for the first half of their careers, there was no question that blake was better than niedermayer. in the second halves of their careers, there was no question that niedermayer was better. but i think the gap between them from the 90s to 2003 is larger than the gap from 2003 until they retired.

    as recently as the early 2000s, there was a very good case that zubov was higher than niedermayer in an all-time sense. pre-peak, niedermayer might be ahead of a guy like ozolinsh, but i don't know that you could even argue he was ahead of hatcher or gonchar yet. it's been said before, but niedermayer's late peak has really coloured his reputation and has artificially inflated his stock.

    all-time, i don't have a list of d-men. but i think niedermayer is behind all of the big six of the previous generation, just barely behind leetch. maybe even with howe, very slightly above blake, and solidly above murphy. fetisov is another 80s guy that niedermayer would be behind.

    hard to compare with 70s guys, because while i know their careers intellectually, i didn't experience them, follow their arcs, etc. obviously nieds is behind potvin, robinson, and park. but it's hard to gauge him relative to salming, savard, or lapointe. salming gets extra points for being a trailblazer, i think.

    among guys later than him, it's impossible to say. but i think the one guy who's been around long enough to consider, chara, is solidly behind niedermayer at this point. but he may have a lot of career ahead of him.
     
  9. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    Just to lay it out there a little more, here are the players I consider FOR SURE above Nieds:

    Orr
    Shore
    Bourque
    Harvey
    Potvin
    Kelly
    Lidstrom
    Fetisov
    Robinson
    Chelios
    Coffey
    Park
    MacInnis
    Pilote
    Cleghorn
    Horton
    Pronger
    Stevens
    Savard
    Salming
    Leetch

    That's 21 where, speaking honestly, I won't even take an argument seriously. There may be more early-era guys to add there, I'll defer to the experts here on that. But no possibility he's higher than #22 in my books.
     
  10. gifted88

    gifted88 Dante the poet

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    top 30 Dman of all-time in my books.
     
  11. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    This is true and the frustrating thing is that some guys who count cups don't do this with Nieds. At least be consistent.

    21-35 range sounds about right but if one includes international and junior play he might rank a bit higher but he should never be higher than 15th on anyones list IMO.

    The 08 season where he sat out and came back partway and never really found his stride hurts his legacy a bit as it did Sundin as well IMO.
     
  12. begbeee

    begbeee Registered User

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    Shouldnt we get him credit where credit is due? He was able to step-up when his team needed him the most (Stevens retirement).
     
  13. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Basically this. Brian Leetch, Chris Pronger, and Borje Salming are usually between 20-25 and I don't see much argument for Niedermayer to be ranked in their class.

    I think even late 20s is a bit of a stretch for him: 30-35 sounds right.
     
  14. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    In the regular season.

    In the 2004 playoffs, the Flyers manhandled the Devils without Stevens in the lineup.
     
  15. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    Add Clancy, Clapper, Gadsby, Vasiliev, Seibert and he's out of the Top 25 even if you disagree with one of those. Arguments can be made for Howe, Langway, and Lapointe as well.
     
  16. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    that's true. classic waiting his turn, and then running with the torch when the time came. reminiscent of the succession of habs' hall of famers back in the day.

    but by the same sword, niedermayer might also lose points for not playing out his career. to cite his most obvious historical comparison (in my opinion), blake is older and retired later. niedermayer waited his turn, took on more and more responsibility in new jersey when stevens was near the end, became their best player and led them to a cup, then won the norris after stevens was gone. but he seemed content with his legacy after those two years. along with marty, he was supposed to lead the devils for the rest of the decade and beyond.

    it disappointed me because i was a big niedermayer fan, back to his first WJC when he was a tantalizing 17 year old bit part on the blueline behind brisebois and slaney. i'd been waiting more than ten years for the niedermayer of 2003 to emerge, and when it did i wanted him to really put his stamp on the game. i wanted 2003 to now to become the niedermayer era.

    seems that wasn't what niedermayer wanted. i don't fault him for it on a character level, and i'd probably have loved him for it if he'd come to vancouver, won a cup, then rode of into the okanagan sunset. but if we're talking about his place on the list of greatest defencemen of all time, i think he had his shot to be a top twenty-five guy and didn't take it (not saying he would have been a top twenty-five guy but that he could have made an argument, of which he now has none). instead, he stuck around for long enough to accomplish what he wanted to and then hung them up.
     
  17. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    Part of the problem for Nieds is that during the earlier part of his career he had to deal with the clutch and grab environment in the NHL which he wasn't suited for as much as a guy like Pronger.

    Also playing in Stevens shadow and Lemaire's system really favored a guy like Stevens put him behind the eight-ball in some guys minds and created a perception that he wasn't really that good and the stuff he did in his 30's couldn't wipe out that perception.

    Fetisov is the flip side of that coin were he had a great start to his career, maybe partly to being part of that 5 man unit and system, and didn't play all that great in his 30's in the NHL but his initial perception is what lingered.

    Nieds also retired while still being able to be better than average Dman in the NHL for family reasons and conceivably could have played longer. Not sure if any of this factors into how he is evaluated but it does cross my mind and that's why I could see him as high as 15th on some lists and in the lower 30's and beyond on other lists.
     
  18. begbeee

    begbeee Registered User

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    To be honest I like him a lot and I tend to overrate him, but man he was such a sexy guy in terms of hockey. Maybe the best skater in the league, won everything everywhere on every level..
    It´s easy to like him and overrate him. He had a potential to make a bigger impact on an all-time list, but I wouldnt call him any dissapointment either.
     
  19. Kyle McMahon

    Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    I'd probably only have him slightly ahead of Blake now that it's all said and done for both of them. And both would probably come in around 35th on my list. I find it pretty unbelievable that semi-repuatable sources (THN, TSN) regularly have him well within their top 20 and ahead of Stevens.
     
  20. tombombadil

    tombombadil Registered User

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    ya. Niedermayer and Nieuwendyke. Must be those Dutch names, too
     
  21. WarriorOfGandhi

    WarriorOfGandhi Was saying Boo-urns

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    Where does his beard rank amongst all-time defensemen?

    [​IMG]

    1) Bourque
    2) Niedermayer
    3) Commodore
    4) Daneyko
    5) Mara
    6) Chara
    7) Potvin
    8) Schneider
    9) Sharks-era Boyle
    10) Smith

    thoughts?
     
  22. ESH

    ESH Registered User

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    THN had him ranked the 18th best defenseman. Pronger was 20th and Lidstrom was 5th.
     
  23. william_adams

    william_adams Registered User

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    I consider him 2nd best of his era.

    How do people consider Pronger better?? Pronged never won anything as an adult without Scott Nieds by his side.

    Canada was terrible in the 2006 Olympics without him.

    He definitely played better when with either Stevens or Pronger, but that cuts both ways.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2011
  24. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    Somewhere around 35th or so.

    Was always very good, but prior to 2003 he was rarely great.

    Also had the luxury of the the #2 defenseman on his own team for the great majority of his career (Stevens/Pronger).
     
  25. Pronger has taken teams on his backs to SCF while Neids always needed a Stevens or Pronger beside him to win.

    add in a Norris and a Hart trophy.. its pretty easy.
     

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