Where does Scott Niedermayer rank?

[Classic Devil]

Old bump but just listening to the radio right now in Vancouver.

One writer Ben Kuzma just said Neidermayer has to be top 5..if he didn't play in New Jersey he'd have a million points

Which is why Rafalski out-scored him 3 out of the 5 seasons they were both in NJ, of course.

The truth is Niedermayer was great but not HoF until the 2003 playoffs. He'd have moments of brilliance prior to that, but he didn't become an all-time-great on the ice until the 2003 playoffs.

 

[Slapshooter]

Having a hard time to rank Niedermayer. I always felt he was overrated, but his overall performance and a consistent semi-elite career cannot be overlooked either. Just don't know.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

Forgot about this topic..didn't see the plenty of new posts.

let me go through it first.

 

[Brooklanders*]

There is nothing wrong with Zubov's career, he was just never at the Norris-level in his career. Very consistent performer though. In 1994 he has 89 points and isn't even an all-star. Leetch was on the Rangers, but not Zubov. Other than that, his career value is similar to Gonchar. Both good in the postseason, both contributed well, but neither was close to the Norris, not even once. He's above a Desjardins but below Niedermayer for sure. Didn't control the game at the same level.

When was Scott Norris worthy? And he had some impressive years with Pittsburg. I take Scott over zubov but not by a lot even though Sergei was a better offensive player.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Basically there is a reason Niedermayer had that gap in his career where he was 31 before he won a Norris. Yes, he wouldn't win it anyway with Lidstrom and Pronger in the way. But it isn't as if the guy was close either. He had a 2nd team all-star in 1998. Then nothing until 2004.

Well if only others could have his "nothing till 04 career" eh?, playing on a WCup and Olympics for the best hockey nation in the world.

Playing top minutes for one of the best teams in the league for well over half of that time period as well (pre 04 even)

Then the most controversial Conn Smythe trophy ever

what about Joe Nieuwendyk or Claude Lemiuex?

But he left you thirsting for more all the time. You always asked yourself "why can't he do that more?"

Funny but I think this is what holds him back as people judge him not only on what he was but what he wasn't.

Other than 1998 when he had 57 points, he was basically at best a 40 point defenseman - mostly in the 30s - and he didn't round out his defensive game early on either. Then he explodes in the 2003 playoffs, wins the Norris in 2004, wins the World Cup in 2004, and had two more elite seasons after that and another Cup. We just all seemed to forget about his foibles before that. Then after 2007 he didn't do anything noteworthy. We are basically talking about a defenseman who has 4-5 elite seasons at the most. Yes, he frustrated you to no end. He had 0 goals and 6 assists during the Devils march to the Cup final. Niedermayer could do that to you all the time. There was always the underlying feeling that he didn't use his speed or ever reach his potential. I still don't think he did.

Think of it this way. Look at the disapointment Jay Bouwmeester has been. Excellent skater, 6'4", good size, long stride. But hey, everyone knows that but him. He's been awful in his career compared to what he "could" have done. In a way, that was Niedermayer pre-2003. If you are the best skater on the ice at all times you should showcase it, you know, like Coffey or Orr did. So yeah, he's in the HHOF someday because he did a lot of good things, won a lot, etc. and it overshadows the "what if" discussion about him.

In what way is Nieds like JayBo? Bad comp IMO except that they both played top minutes.

Also while I agree that Nieds might have been more offensive, don't you think that playing for New Jersey stifled him a bit and sure he wasn't Orr or Coffey but who else was?

From 92-10 when he played he was 1st in scoring for Canadian Dmen (for an 06 comp) in scoring and 4th overall in the regular season.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

In the playoffs he was 2nd after Pronger and 4th overall http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

So sure he could have been better but some context is important as well.

Sure some guys over rate him , he isn't top 5 by any stretch but our project really over rated and looked past alot of stuff with Pilot as well. The two guys sure are alot closer than we ranked him IMO.

 

[tjcurrie]

I myself dont like ranking pre-1950 era players, so I'll stay away from the Sprague Cleghorns of the hockey world. Just too hard to truly rank.

So I would probably stick him in my top 20.

 

[tjcurrie]

There is nothing wrong with Zubov's career, he was just never at the Norris-level in his career. Very consistent performer though. In 1994 he has 89 points and isn't even an all-star. Leetch was on the Rangers, but not Zubov. Other than that, his career value is similar to Gonchar. Both good in the postseason, both contributed well, but neither was close to the Norris, not even once. He's above a Desjardins but below Niedermayer for sure. Didn't control the game at the same level.

Whoa whoa whoa!

Zubov controlled games for sure. The guy was everything to the Stars in a lot of ways.

I put him ahead of Niedermayer in my rankings. There's nothing Niedermayer could do that Zubov couldn't, but Niedermayer was never on Zubov's level offensively. Zubov's certainly better than Gonchar too. Gonchar put up points, Zubov created offense/transition - there's a difference.

As far as voting, meh. I dont put a ton of stock in to that stuff. A lot of bias goes on there. It means something, but not as much as some on here think. Jarome Iginla will finish his career without a Hart trophy yet deserved at least the one. Look at us disagreeing here, along with others, the same thing happens in the voting. Different opinions and lots of times guys get overlooked.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

With Lidstrom's retirement they are bringing up defensemen again and once again the guys on the radio are trying to say Neids is in the top 5 or close to it..

I just can't see it.. I can't.. but that's just me.

 

[Ringmaster]

top 50 in my books

 

[Dreakmur]

top 50 in my books

Definately a top-50 defenseman. Probably top-40. Definately not top-30.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Definately a top-50 defenseman. Probably top-40. Definately not top-30.

He was ranked 33rd on the Top 60 defenseman project, so seems like there probably should be a case for him in the top 30 (even if I wouldn't necessarily agree with it).

 

[Hardyvan123]

With Lidstrom's retirement they are bringing up defensemen again and once again the guys on the radio are trying to say Neids is in the top 5 or close to it..

I just can't see it.. I can't.. but that's just me.

Are you listening to Team 1040 in Vancouver?

The guys on there are just talking off the cuff and really are championship counting as well.

 

[glovesave_35]

First and foremost, Sergei Zubov was more consistent and productive offensively than Scott Niedermayer. Zubov had a stretch of 13 years in which he scored at least 42 points (includes 36 points in 38 games during shortened 1994-1995 season), highlighted by leading the eventual Stanley Cup champion New York Rangers in points with 89. Niedermayer, comparatively, had nearly as many as many 30 point seasons as he did 40 point, and not nearly as many 50 point efforts.

Defensively Zubov was a horse, playing insane minutes, which at his peak was 28:50 in 77 GP during the 1999-2000 season. That's the best I can describe Sergei Zubov: a horse. He was Mr. Everything for the Dallas Stars on defense from the second he got there, as Dallas had one of the biggest single season turnarounds in NHL history (26-42-14 to 48-26-8).

It's hard to say bad things about Scott Niedermayer because he was a big part of those great New Jersey Devils teams and one of the better defensemen in the league his whole career. But as I mentioned before and you also pointed out, Niedermayer didn't really take the next step until around 2003-2004, over a decade into his career. To my eyes, Zubov had already been playing at that level since the mid-1990's.

It's nice to see a non-Stars fan defend Zubov in this comparison. I'm admittedly biased but I think at some point in the early 2000's the Scott Niedermayer hype machine went into overdrive.

There is nothing wrong with Zubov's career, he was just never at the Norris-level in his career. Very consistent performer though. In 1994 he has 89 points and isn't even an all-star. Leetch was on the Rangers, but not Zubov. Other than that, his career value is similar to Gonchar. Both good in the postseason, both contributed well, but neither was close to the Norris, not even once. He's above a Desjardins but below Niedermayer for sure. Didn't control the game at the same level.

I respect your opinion and was interested when I saw you chime in on this subject. However, the last sentence of your post leads me to the conclusion that you watched a disproportionate number of games of both players. Zubov controlled the game when he was on the ice more than 99% of players he played with or against in any given game. The select few who could dethrone him in that capacity were all time great players like Forsberg, Sakic, etc. Even then it was a 50/50 proposition with Zubov coming up big as often as those guys.

It's my personal opinion that if Zubov were a more approachable talkative guy he would be held in much higher regard as a player. He eschewed the media at every turn and his reputation took/is taking a hit because of that. His lack of Norris and post season All Star nomimations is testament to that moreso than his on-ice play.

Most Stars fans not of the Modano fanboy variety agree that Zubov was the Stars' best player during his tenure. I don't think you can sustain excellence as a team and organization for long periods of time without both a stud center and stud defenseman, and Zubov was pretty clearly a better defenseman than Modano was a center, and Modano was a helluva two-way stud center. There was a reason that Zubov was the first of the two to get a new contract with the team after the lockout. There is also a reason that the organization's highest level of sustained success directly coincides with Zubov's tenure as a Star.

Saying Zubov and Gonchar are pretty equivalent players smacks of ignorance to me. Gonchar has had a very nice career and has put up some good numbers. He was never even close to Zubov's level defensively. Offensively, Gonchar relied more heavily on physical skills like his shot from the point than Zubov, while the latter was a mind over matter type of player with a slick pair of hands. A more apt Russia/Russia comparison would be Zubov/Datsyuk. Those guys both control(ed) the game all over the ice and have next level hockey IQ.

 

[glovesave_35]

what about Joe Nieuwendyk or Claude Lemiuex?

11 goals and 6 GWG in one playoffs isn't in the same conversation as Niedermayer's career achievement award Conn Smythe. There were probably three players more worthy of the Conn Smythe that year than Niedermayer.

 

[Hardyvan123]

11 goals and 6 GWG in one playoffs isn't in the same conversation as Niedermayer's career achievement award Conn Smythe. There were probably three players more worthy of the Conn Smythe that year than Niedermayer.

sure Nieds might have had a bit of the career thing going on with his CS in 07 but come on he played 627 TOI in those playoffs and was over 29 mins per game.

I can see the argument that Pronger was in the mix but who are the other 2 guys?

In 99 when Joe won both Zubov and Modano had extremely strong and perhaps even better playoffs.

In 95 when Lemiuex won they where probably 5 guys, which includes Federov from Detroit that had better playoffs than he did.

 

[Epsilon]

sure Nieds might have had a bit of the career thing going on with his CS in 07 but come on he played 627 TOI in those playoffs and was over 29 mins per game.

I can see the argument that Pronger was in the mix but who are the other 2 guys?

In 99 when Joe won both Zubov and Modano had extremely strong and perhaps even better playoffs.

In 95 when Lemiuex won they where probably 5 guys, which includes Federov from Detroit that had better playoffs than he did.

Sammy Pahlsson and J.S. Giguere were both (IMO) more deserving of the Conn Smythe than Niedermayer. With Pahlsson it's hard for the voters to recognize a defensive forward (but he was absolutely dynamite that post-season), and as far as Giguere goes they may have figured he'd already won it once and his performance wasn't good enough for a repeat win.

 

[glovesave_35]

sure Nieds might have had a bit of the career thing going on with his CS in 07 but come on he played 627 TOI in those playoffs and was over 29 mins per game.

I can see the argument that Pronger was in the mix but who are the other 2 guys?

In 99 when Joe won both Zubov and Modano had extremely strong and perhaps even better playoffs.

In 95 when Lemiuex won they where probably 5 guys, which includes Federov from Detroit that had better playoffs than he did.

The fact that the Stars had three players more deserving of a Conn Smythe in '99 than the Ducks had in '07 doesn't mean Nieuwendyk shouldn't have won. His Conn Smythe was a stronger, more obvious choice than Niedermayer - so much so I'm suprised we're discussing it.

Sammy Pahlsson and J.S. Giguere were both (IMO) more deserving of the Conn Smythe than Niedermayer. With Pahlsson it's hard for the voters to recognize a defensive forward (but he was absolutely dynamite that post-season), and as far as Giguere goes they may have figured he'd already won it once and his performance wasn't good enough for a repeat win.

IMO the MVP of those playoffs was Pahlsson. It was a pretty weak postseason to be honest and that guy was arguably the single biggest reason for Anaheim even getting to the Finals.

 

[Plural]

THN had him ranked the 18th best defenseman. Pronger was 20th and Lidstrom was 5th.

Really? I'd say that sound a bit strange list.


EDIT: Ooops, did not realise that it was a bit old post.

 

[Emerald Duck]

11 goals and 6 GWG in one playoffs isn't in the same conversation as Niedermayer's career achievement award Conn Smythe. There were probably three players more worthy of the Conn Smythe that year than Niedermayer.

Pronger wasn't going to win the award based on his two different suspensions during the playoffs.

Giguere might have received some consideration but since he had already won the award he might have been held to a slightly higher standard.

Pahlsson had a great playoff run but he was a member of a shutdown line (Pahlsson, Moen and R. Niedermayer) that collectively dominated opponents. Since the Conn Smythe award goes to an individual and not a line, it would be tough to single out Pahlsson.

Niedermayer was as deserving of the trophy as anyone on the Ducks. He scored the series clinching goal over Vancouver in OT, scored an OT winner against Detroit (unfortunately for Detroit since they probably would have whacked Ottawa that year as well). His last minute goal against Detroit in game 5 set up Selanne's more famous OT winner and probably saved the series for Anaheim. Time and time again, when the team needed someone to come through for them in crunch time, it was Scotty.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

Oh Steve Simmons is saying Scott Neidermayer is the 9th best d-man of all time.

When I ask him why he simply replies with.

4 Stanley Cups. 2 Oly Gold medals. Mem Cup championship. Really.

 

[Epsilon]

Oh Steve Simmons is saying Scott Neidermayer is the 9th best d-man of all time.

When I ask him why he simply replies with.

4 Stanley Cups. 2 Oly Gold medals. Mem Cup championship. Really.

This is pretty much the cookie-cutter media overrating of Niedermayer being displayed by Simmons there. Team trophy counting taken to its most absurd levels.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Sammy Pahlsson and J.S. Giguere were both (IMO) more deserving of the Conn Smythe than Niedermayer. With Pahlsson it's hard for the voters to recognize a defensive forward (but he was absolutely dynamite that post-season), and as far as Giguere goes they may have figured he'd already won it once and his performance wasn't good enough for a repeat win.

Pahlsson was great that year but I doubt the voters are ever going to give the Conn Smythe to a 3rd line Center, although Butch Goring comes to mind but he scored quite well in the year he won.

Goalies are probably almost always the most deserving as they have more impact but he didn't stand out and when he didn't play his stand in, Ilya Bryzgalov, did just as well.

Nieds had a great career but tends to downgraded in the histroy section for some reason, maybe it's to counter balance Pierre LeBruns Mancrush on him I'm not sure.

It would be nice if the guys in the top Dman project at least compared the apples with apples in his finishes against Canadian competition but instead older guys only had to face Canadian competition for voting, in a much smaller league and guys like Nieds get unfair comps in Norris and all star voting.

The classic example is the easy treatment Pilote gets compared to Nieds and was something like 20 spots higher when the 2 should be really close in the rankings IMO.

And I had Pilote quite high but the more I look at him the less I like his high ranking, especially compared to a guy like Nieds.

 

[Kershaw]

Sammy Pahlsson and J.S. Giguere were both (IMO) more deserving of the Conn Smythe than Niedermayer. With Pahlsson it's hard for the voters to recognize a defensive forward (but he was absolutely dynamite that post-season), and as far as Giguere goes they may have figured he'd already won it once and his performance wasn't good enough for a repeat win.

Chris Pronger.

Neidermayer IMO will live in the shadow of Chris Pronger in my eyes....

05-06 Neidermayer was his best season and he rarely made mistakes, but he was still outmatched by Pronger in the WCF.

06-07 Pronger was the better player and team MVP, but his dirty elbow on McAmmod(sp) ruined his reputation for Conn Smythe.

 

[HanSolo]

Chris Pronger.

Neidermayer IMO will live in the shadow of Chris Pronger in my eyes....

05-06 Neidermayer was his best season and he rarely made mistakes, but he was still outmatched by Pronger in the WCF.

06-07 Pronger was the better player and team MVP, but his dirty elbow on McAmmod(sp) ruined his reputation for Conn Smythe.

Nope. Giguere. Hands down.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Pahlsson was great that year but I doubt the voters are ever going to give the Conn Smythe to a 3rd line Center, although Butch Goring comes to mind but he scored quite well in the year he won.

Goalies are probably almost always the most deserving as they have more impact but he didn't stand out and when he didn't play his stand in, Ilya Bryzgalov, did just as well.

Nieds had a great career but tends to downgraded in the histroy section for some reason, maybe it's to counter balance Pierre LeBruns Mancrush on him I'm not sure.

It would be nice if the guys in the top Dman project at least compared the apples with apples in his finishes against Canadian competition but instead older guys only had to face Canadian competition for voting, in a much smaller league and guys like Nieds get unfair comps in Norris and all star voting.

The classic example is the easy treatment Pilote gets compared to Nieds and was something like 20 spots higher when the 2 should be really close in the rankings IMO.

And I had Pilote quite high but the more I look at him the less I like his high ranking, especially compared to a guy like Nieds.

Just because you face more competition, doesn't mean it is necessiarily greater competition.

The talent pool hasn't expanded so much since the 50s that variation cannot outpace the growth in the talent pool (note that this is the growth in the talent pool. There are more NHL players because there are more NHL teams, doesn't mean the talent pool is 5x greater.)