Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
That's a solid comparison. Ovechkin deserves a lot of recognition for what he did in these playoffs...just like Crosby in 2009. But there was someone better in each case...
Hmm? What do you mean? Peter Bondra doesn't have a single top 10 point finish - what do you mean by Ovechkin being a "worse" Peter Bondra?
Is anyone else violently against the idea of Ovechkin over Jagr at this point?
I mean, Jagr finished 2-7 goals back from the league leader, what, six times? While putting up huge assist numbers.
32-38 to Bondra’s 34-9
47-48 to Tkachuk’s 52-34
44-83 to Selanne’s 47-60
52-69 to Bure’s 59-33
54-69 to Cheechoo’s 56-37
And then one where he was directly behind Mario Lemieux. If he wanted something similar to Ovechkin’s Rocket Richard trophy case at the detriment of his overall performance, I’m pretty sure he could have it.
I meant those seasons Ovechkin failed to score at a PPG rate. That's four out of his last eight. You should heed I was replying to a poster who claimed Ovi has been an elite level for "quite a bit of time longer than Jagr by now" which I consider totally incorrect.
Is anyone else violently against the idea of Ovechkin over Jagr at this point?
I mean, Jagr finished 2-7 goals back from the league leader, what, six times? While putting up huge assist numbers.
32-38 to Bondra’s 34-9
47-48 to Tkachuk’s 52-34
44-83 to Selanne’s 47-60
52-69 to Bure’s 59-33
54-69 to Cheechoo’s 56-37
And then one where he was directly behind Mario Lemieux. If he wanted something similar to Ovechkin’s Rocket Richard trophy case at the detriment of his overall performance, I’m pretty sure he could have it.
If you are down to "never having played with rookies," you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Again, where is Stan Mikita on the Capitals? Glenn Hall? Pierre Pilote? Come on now!No one claimed that ES goals were more valuable than PP goals. However teams not talking penalties would have an easier time defending Ovechkin than BobbyHull. So ES performance has always been more important than PP performance and Hull has a big edge.
Bobby Hull won his first Art Ross and led the NHL in goals during the 1959-60 season playing with two rookies - Bill Hay and Murray Balfour,facing future HHOF goaltenders in app 80% of the games and at two future HHOF defencemen per team in most games.
Ovechkin has never played a full NHL season with two rookies, faces future HHOF goaltenders perhaps 30 out of 82 games, and future HHOF defenceman, maybe 1 per team every three games.
Not sure what you mean. If you mean "Crosby should've won in 2009," then no, because Malkin had a historic run, easily the best of the 21st Century, and Crosby was shut down in the Finals by Zetterberg. Kuznetsov was impressive indeed, but not quite on Malkin's level, and no opponent shut Ovechkin down in any series.I guess just like 2009 was a no-brainer, eh?
How many Harts did Bondra win in the Bondra years?Me, but it all depends on whether we compare ability or career achievements (or both).
Jagr had a broader offensive skill set and he was way more creative. And I honestly don't think Ovi made up for that by pulling off a dozen of 50+25 types of years. The Bondra years. (I understand people claim goals to be more valuable and harder to get / score, but then again, if assists are so easy to get by, how come Ovi tends to have so few?)
Yet I'm not sure how much these charts have to do with actual ability. So I stay away from getting deeper.
If you are down to "never having played with rookies," you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Again, where is Stan Mikita on the Capitals? Glenn Hall? Pierre Pilote? Come on now!
I meant those seasons Ovechkin failed to score at a PPG rate. That's four out of his last eight. You should heed I was replying to a poster who claimed Ovi has been an elite level for "quite a bit of time longer than Jagr by now" which I consider totally incorrect.
How many Harts did Bondra win in the Bondra years?
Right next to Jagr, and still clearly behind Crosby seems to be a good call.
I think the natural comparisons for Ovechkin are Richard and Bobby Hull. Both are pretty firmly inside top10 all-time, the order depends on the weight people place on playoffs.
So those who value playoffs a lot should probably start comparing Ovechkin with Bobby Hull, now that an argument can be made that Ovechkin's best Cup run was better, he was more important for winning the Cup (as compared to 22-year-old Hull), etc. Since regular seasons are close enough, and Ovechkin can overtake Hull as a better goal-scorer with some reasonable longevity, Ovechkin > Bobby Hull after all is said and done seems a good possibility.
Those who value playoffs less should probably consider Ovechkin vs. Richard case. Yes, Richard's PO record is still much greater, but Ovechkin is starting to pull away in RS. More Hart consideration (not to mention the fact that Richard won Hart only once and Ovechkin did it 3 times), more goal-scoring titles, etc. So with Ovechkin having got his Cup and signature PO run, Ovechkin > Richard is quite possible even now, not to mention in 2-3 years.
To sum up, if Richard is your #5 and Bobby Hull is your #10, Ovechkin > Bobby Hull seems a possibility, if not now, then in a few years for sure.
If Bobby Hull is your #5 and Richard is your #10, Ovechkin > Richard is pretty defensible.
Which makes Ovechkin borderline top10 at the moment with good chance of solidifying his case by the end of his career.
Here is some additional analysis of Ovechkin vs. Bobby Hull and Ovechkin vs. Richard I did a few months ago for another thread (before Ovechkin won his 7th goal-scoring title and Conn Smythe):
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/143236413/
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/143244239/
Outside of this season that saw a sizable increase in scoring, ppg was roughly top 5 in points in all those years. Given that Jagr has 7 top5 finishes himself, that's a high watermark.
Let's look at their Hart voting records
Ovechkin 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6
Jagr 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 6
Add to that the fact that Ovechkin will get something for this year and would have got something for 13/14 if his team was better, and the gap in the number of elite seasons starts to open up.
Some more population based nonsensensical argument.Please read and try to understand the point raised by Bill James in the attached.
Shakespeare and Verlander | Articles | Bill James Online
Basically the point is that the population size, provenance or whatever coloration you wish to introduce does not matter.
What matters is what a given society which to develope at the elite athletic, academic, artistic, scientific or any endeavour,
In the fifties and sixties the NHL wanted complete hockey players on dynasty teams to attract eyeballs and profit.
Today the NHL wants parity and entertainment to attract eyeballs and profit.
The size of the league,world population or provenance of the players does not matter.
No, he would not have. Benn placed 12th in 14/15 on a non-playoff team while having a better season.
How many Harts did Bondra win in the Bondra years?
Benn was nominated for Lindsay in 14/15 and definitely deserved better in Hart voting if not for the silly tendency of snubbing players on non-playoff teams.
Ovechkin in 13/14 was not nominated for Lindsay, but if Lindsay votes were public, he would definitely be top10. Which is where he should have been in Hart voting too if had the vote been on the quality of the player's season only.
What matters is what a given society which to develope at the elite athletic, academic, artistic, scientific or any endeavour,
In the fifties and sixties the NHL wanted complete hockey players on dynasty teams to attract eyeballs and profit.
Today the NHL wants parity and entertainment to attract eyeballs and profit.
Ovechkin is greater than Crosby (or has an excellent case at least). He's a top 10 player of all time now without a doubt.
How many players with at least 16 major individual NHL awards are there outside the top 10 players of all time?