Where does Ovie now rank all time?

McKappa

philip bruhberg
Oct 16, 2011
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Edmonton
He's won just about every regular season award he could win, now he finally wins it all with a Conn Smythe, silencing all his doubters. Where does the GOAT of our generation rank amongst the all time greats?
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
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He's won just about every regular season award he could win, now he finally wins it all with a Conn Smythe, silencing all his doubters. Where does the GOAT of our generation rank amongst the all time greats?

Two things:
  • How can you be the greatest of all-time of a generation?
  • He’s not.
Just inside the top-20. It came up in the main boards, but I don’t see him ahead of Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux, Roy, Beliveau, Richard, Hull, Morenz, Crosby, Harvey, Plante, Messier, Bourque, Shore, Jagr, Nighbor, or Sawchuk. It’s good company though.
 
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solidmotion

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Jun 5, 2012
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Two things:
  • How can you be the greatest of all-time of a generation?
  • He’s not.
Just inside the top-20. It came up in the main boards, but I don’t see him ahead of Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux, Roy, Beliveau, Richard, Hull, Morenz, Crosby, Harvey, Plante, Messier, Bourque, Shore, Jagr, Nighbor, or Sawchuk. It’s good company though.

i don't know about this. i mean for instance, what makes hull clearly above ovechkin? i'm not saying he isn't, but there has to be a discussion—tied for richards, ovechkin now with a cup and smythe... at some point this becomes a debate, and it might be now. same goes for ovechkin vs jagr, i think. i don't know if i'm saying he's top 10 or anything, but maybe top 15.

(i will say that, having not paid really close attention for a few years, ovechkin no longer really looks as great as he did back when he was the force of nature he was for the first few years of his career. way more perimeter play, almost every goal is from the circle or the slot, not a primary puck carrier. so if that's a metric of greatness then i guess he's declined a bit. and maybe jagr and hull are still above him. and fwiw i thought kuznetsov was better these playoffs. but the results are obviously there.)
 

Sentinel

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Kuznetsov should have gotten that Smythe. He’s the one driving that line, driving the play, setting up guys all over the ice.
Ovechkin was the heart, the soul, and the leadership of this team. Kuznetsov will have his chances, but this CS was clearly Ovy's.

I think Ovechkin is now ahead of Jagr, Bourque, and Lidstrom, and in the Hull's category. I mean: seriously, what has Hull done that Ovechkin hasn't? I'll tell you: he hasn't had another Hart winner on his team. Bourque never won the Hart (he was close though) and never came close to the Conn Smythe. Ovy is also a much better RS performer than Richard.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
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Kuznetsov should have gotten that Smythe. He’s the one driving that line, driving the play, setting up guys all over the ice.

I would have gone with him (would have gone with Kessel over Crosby as well), but Ovechkin was still damn good and instrumental in the Cup win. Didn't think he could have a playoffs this good at this stage of his career.
 
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Troubadour

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Feb 23, 2018
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Yeah. He had five fewer points, but he was the captain, the heart and soul, and he did have more goals. He's typically seen as a greater difference maker. Right?

The cursed part is, if Ovechkin played like Kuznetsov and Kuznetsov played like Ovechkin this PS, Ovechkin would still win the Smythe; except no fans would be complaining Kuznetsov deserved it more.

Journalists simply give themselves (and some fans) a story. Me, I don't like it. I really do think it should go to the truly best player out there.
 

Aladyyn

they praying for the death of a rockstar
Apr 6, 2015
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Two things:
  • How can you be the greatest of all-time of a generation?
  • He’s not.
Just inside the top-20. It came up in the main boards, but I don’t see him ahead of Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux, Roy, Beliveau, Richard, Hull, Morenz, Crosby, Harvey, Plante, Messier, Bourque, Shore, Jagr, Nighbor, or Sawchuk. It’s good company though.
What does Hull have over Ovechkin outside of being Canadian?
 

The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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I think Ovechkin is now ahead of Jagr, Bourque, and Lidstrom, and in the Hull's category.
Wow, I don't see it. Ovechkin's Stanley Cup or no Stanley Cup, I'd have him (now) ahead of Hull, but with Jagr, Bourque, and Lidstrom ALL ahead of Ovechkin.

I don't see peak/prime Ovechkin as being at Jagr's level. Ovechkin might now have a playoff performance that rivals Jagr's best, but other than that Jagr is ahead of him quite easily, I think.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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What does Hull have over Ovechkin outside of being Canadian?

actually, their stats are remarkably similar. eerily similar.

10366045491153
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]
10036075151122
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]

seven goal scoring titles each

three art rosses and a hart vs three harts and an art ross

10 AST1s and 2 AST2s vs 7 AST1s and 3 AST2s (plus maybe another this season)*

* i don't count the extraneous AST2 from 2013, but given how big the league is, i think their AST accomplishments are very close even though hull has all those extra first teams

their playoff stats:

1196267129
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]
1206056116
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]

but what does hull have over ovechkin? a whole other career as the best player in the WHA.
 

unknown33

Registered User
Dec 8, 2009
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[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]
but what does hull have over ovechkin? a whole other career as the best player in the WHA.
Hull is usually ranked close to the top 5, while it looks like Ovi might struggle to make the top 20 for some. Really makes you think.


edit: what hull might have over ovechkin is goal scoring dominance in % over his peers. I recall him having the best seasons ever, can't find the thread where it was posted though. On the other hand you could argue about size of competition he faced when he accomplished it.
 
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Laineux

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Aug 1, 2011
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actually, their stats are remarkably similar. eerily similar.

10366045491153
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]
10036075151122
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]
seven goal scoring titles each

three art rosses and a hart vs three harts and an art ross

10 AST1s and 2 AST2s vs 7 AST1s and 3 AST2s (plus maybe another this season)*

* i don't count the extraneous AST2 from 2013, but given how big the league is, i think their AST accomplishments are very close even though hull has all those extra first teams

their playoff stats:

1196267129
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]
1206056116
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]
but what does hull have over ovechkin? a whole other career as the best player in the WHA.
I think it would be fair to account for the increase in international competition - if Ovechkin had been born in Hull's time, well he wouldn't have competed for any of those awards with Hull.

Comparing how Ovechkin does against only Canadian competition in the league is a good start.
 

Sensinitis

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Aug 5, 2012
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I would have gone with him (would have gone with Kessel over Crosby as well), but Ovechkin was still damn good and instrumental in the Cup win. Didn't think he could have a playoffs this good at this stage of his career.

man. how do you guys think? I can't even...

Kessel vs kuznetsov is so different. Kessel was literally on the 3rd line. when you have malkin and Crosby as primary threats, it's a different thing to put up points then if you are kuznetsov the team's 1C playing the top matchups and everything.
 
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SovietWings

Registered User
Feb 1, 2017
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Pardubice
Well it could be argued that Ovechkin is both - he is ahead of Hull but there is still Hull ahead of him.
But now, with Cup and Conn Smythe, maybe he is already ahead of two Hulls...:naughty:
 
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Sensinitis

Registered User
Aug 5, 2012
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Ovechkin was the heart, the soul, and the leadership of this team. Kuznetsov will have his chances, but this CS was clearly Ovy's.

I think Ovechkin is now ahead of Jagr, Bourque, and Lidstrom, and in the Hull's category. I mean: seriously, what has Hull done that Ovechkin hasn't? I'll tell you: he hasn't had another Hart winner on his team. Bourque never won the Hart (he was close though) and never came close to the Conn Smythe. Ovy is also a much better RS performer than Richard.

this is pretty much what is being spread on the main boards, and it's just painful to think about.

it's not even lazy thinking...it's purely emotional - the image of ovechkin winning the cup and wearing the C and with all the years of him not winning - that image creates a nice emotion that makes people say "he was the heart and soul, he deserved it".

that's not logic, not rationality, not objective whatsoever. that's just dumb. it's using an emotion to make a judgment and I mean, it's like most people here never learned how to write a dissertation and have arguments and claims that are actually supported with objective evidence.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
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I think we can all agree Ovechkin had a great run that was meaningful to his legacy.Even if Kuznetsov won it, Ovechkin would have been the 2nd choice, so it was still a "Smythe-worthy run", which is what matters when re-evaluating his legacy.

His ranking doesn't necessarily change because it's hard to rise once you're already so high.He might have passed some players, maybe not.At least his legacy has no gigantic hole in it anymore.

I'm very happy for him.
 
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BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
Hey I'm not against heart-and-soul arguments.I think being the heart-and-soul guy is a real thing, hard to define sure but you know it when you see it.Was Ovechkin that guy? I don't know but then I missed too many games to comment.

But being the heart-and-soul guy does not mean you should win the Smythe automatically, though it can help your case.

Guess my point is that it's not as empty as some would say.
 
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Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
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Wow, I don't see it. Ovechkin's Stanley Cup or no Stanley Cup, I'd have him (now) ahead of Hull, but with Jagr, Bourque, and Lidstrom ALL ahead of Ovechkin.

I don't see peak/prime Ovechkin as being at Jagr's level. Ovechkin might now have a playoff performance that rivals Jagr's best, but other than that Jagr is ahead of him quite easily, I think.

1st AST: 7 for both
2nd AST: 1 for Jagr, 4 for Ovy. Advantage Ovy
Hart: 1 for Jagr, 3 for Ovy. Advantage Ovy
Art Ross: 5 for Jagr, 1 for Ovy. Advantage Jagr
Rockets: 0 for Jagr, 7 for Ovy. Advantage Ovy
Team success while being the top guy: advantage Ovy
Playoffs: advantage Ovy
International: advantage Jagr

Ovy is also ahead of physicality, leadership, and the excitement factor. Jagr was no slouch here, but Ovy is among the best that ever was.

Their primes are actually not too dissimilar, as they were both the force of nature, unstoppable. But to me Ovy is now starting to pull ahead.

Yeah. He had five fewer points, but he was the captain, the heart and soul, and he did have more goals. He's typically seen as a greater difference maker. Right?
That's correct. Ovy also has the physical presence, the leadership, and the *it* factor. It was a no-brainer, really.
 

Plural

Registered User
Mar 10, 2011
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I have to digest the thought for a while. Still high one the win!

But I'd wager the quickest way to say where he ranks is top-20 but not top-10. Still has a chance to get to the top-10 and I think he will do it.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
9,711
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Brampton, ON
man. how do you guys think? I can't even...

Kessel vs kuznetsov is so different. Kessel was literally on the 3rd line. when you have malkin and Crosby as primary threats, it's a different thing to put up points then if you are kuznetsov the team's 1C playing the top matchups and everything.

I meant I would have given the Conn Smythe to both Kessel and Kuznenstov, not that Kuznetsov's performance was similar to Kessel's in 2016.

In any event, this is a disputable Smythe, but it's not a weak one like the 2016 one.
 

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