Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
That's a solid comparison. Ovechkin deserves a lot of recognition for what he did in these playoffs...just like Crosby in 2009. But there was someone better in each case...
Where does Ovie now rank all time?
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BenchBrawl
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OK, I'll say it, I still rank Guy Lafleur ahead of him.I value playoffs a lot though, and I'm one of the few who rank Lafleur ahead of Jagr too.
As for Ovechkin vs. Jagr, extremely interesting.First impulse is to say Jagr was a better player; smarter, more versatile, and his real prime was probably longer.OTOH, Ovechkin now has a playoff run where he was the heart and soul of a championship team, Jagr has none.
Ovechkin vs. Hull? No clue.
I need to digest all of this.
To conclude, Crosby is still comfortably ahead of Ovy in my book.
As for Ovechkin vs. Jagr, extremely interesting.First impulse is to say Jagr was a better player; smarter, more versatile, and his real prime was probably longer.OTOH, Ovechkin now has a playoff run where he was the heart and soul of a championship team, Jagr has none.
Ovechkin vs. Hull? No clue.
I need to digest all of this.
To conclude, Crosby is still comfortably ahead of Ovy in my book.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Is anyone else violently against the idea of Ovechkin over Jagr at this point?
I mean, Jagr finished 2-7 goals back from the league leader, what, six times? While putting up huge assist numbers.
32-38 to Bondra’s 34-9
47-48 to Tkachuk’s 52-34
44-83 to Selanne’s 47-60
52-69 to Bure’s 59-33
54-69 to Cheechoo’s 56-37
And then one where he was directly behind Mario Lemieux. If he wanted something similar to Ovechkin’s Rocket Richard trophy case at the detriment of his overall performance, I’m pretty sure he could have it.
I mean, Jagr finished 2-7 goals back from the league leader, what, six times? While putting up huge assist numbers.
32-38 to Bondra’s 34-9
47-48 to Tkachuk’s 52-34
44-83 to Selanne’s 47-60
52-69 to Bure’s 59-33
54-69 to Cheechoo’s 56-37
And then one where he was directly behind Mario Lemieux. If he wanted something similar to Ovechkin’s Rocket Richard trophy case at the detriment of his overall performance, I’m pretty sure he could have it.
Troubadour
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I meant those seasons Ovechkin failed to score at a PPG rate. That's four out of his last eight. You should heed I was replying to a poster who claimed Ovi has been an elite level for "quite a bit of time longer than Jagr by now" which I consider totally incorrect.
I think it's debatable which player is the more effective offensive overall. OV has reached the very upper tier of goalscorers, Jagr reached the very upper tier of offensive players outside of the Big 4.
Jagr had a clear edge in playoff legacy prior to this year, OV now has the best playoff run between the two. Jagr could still hold the longevity edge for now.
Agree with your comment. There is a large difference in the quality of his Rocket seasons in terms of value.
Troubadour
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Me, but it all depends on whether we compare ability or career achievements (or both).
Jagr had a broader offensive skill set and he was way more creative. And I honestly don't think Ovi made up for that by pulling off a dozen of 50+25 types of years. The Bondra years. (I understand people claim goals to be more valuable and harder to get / score, but then again, if assists are so easy to get by, how come Ovi tends to have so few?)
Yet I'm not sure how much these charts have to do with actual ability. So I stay away from getting deeper.
Sentinel
Registered User
If you are down to "never having played with rookies," you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Again, where is Stan Mikita on the Capitals? Glenn Hall? Pierre Pilote? Come on now!
Sentinel
Registered User
Not sure what you mean. If you mean "Crosby should've won in 2009," then no, because Malkin had a historic run, easily the best of the 21st Century, and Crosby was shut down in the Finals by Zetterberg. Kuznetsov was impressive indeed, but not quite on Malkin's level, and no opponent shut Ovechkin down in any series.
Sentinel
Registered User
I think the natural comparisons for Ovechkin are Richard and Bobby Hull. Both are pretty firmly inside top10 all-time, the order depends on the weight people place on playoffs.
So those who value playoffs a lot should probably start comparing Ovechkin with Bobby Hull, now that an argument can be made that Ovechkin's best Cup run was better, he was more important for winning the Cup (as compared to 22-year-old Hull), etc. Since regular seasons are close enough, and Ovechkin can overtake Hull as a better goal-scorer with some reasonable longevity, Ovechkin > Bobby Hull after all is said and done seems a good possibility.
Those who value playoffs less should probably consider Ovechkin vs. Richard case. Yes, Richard's PO record is still much greater, but Ovechkin is starting to pull away in RS. More Hart consideration (not to mention the fact that Richard won Hart only once and Ovechkin did it 3 times), more goal-scoring titles, etc. So with Ovechkin having got his Cup and signature PO run, Ovechkin > Richard is quite possible even now, not to mention in 2-3 years.
To sum up, if Richard is your #5 and Bobby Hull is your #10, Ovechkin > Bobby Hull seems a possibility, if not now, then in a few years for sure.
If Bobby Hull is your #5 and Richard is your #10, Ovechkin > Richard is pretty defensible.
Which makes Ovechkin borderline top10 at the moment with good chance of solidifying his case by the end of his career.
Here is some additional analysis of Ovechkin vs. Bobby Hull and Ovechkin vs. Richard I did a few months ago for another thread (before Ovechkin won his 7th goal-scoring title and Conn Smythe):
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/143236413/
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/143244239/
So those who value playoffs a lot should probably start comparing Ovechkin with Bobby Hull, now that an argument can be made that Ovechkin's best Cup run was better, he was more important for winning the Cup (as compared to 22-year-old Hull), etc. Since regular seasons are close enough, and Ovechkin can overtake Hull as a better goal-scorer with some reasonable longevity, Ovechkin > Bobby Hull after all is said and done seems a good possibility.
Those who value playoffs less should probably consider Ovechkin vs. Richard case. Yes, Richard's PO record is still much greater, but Ovechkin is starting to pull away in RS. More Hart consideration (not to mention the fact that Richard won Hart only once and Ovechkin did it 3 times), more goal-scoring titles, etc. So with Ovechkin having got his Cup and signature PO run, Ovechkin > Richard is quite possible even now, not to mention in 2-3 years.
To sum up, if Richard is your #5 and Bobby Hull is your #10, Ovechkin > Bobby Hull seems a possibility, if not now, then in a few years for sure.
If Bobby Hull is your #5 and Richard is your #10, Ovechkin > Richard is pretty defensible.
Which makes Ovechkin borderline top10 at the moment with good chance of solidifying his case by the end of his career.
Here is some additional analysis of Ovechkin vs. Bobby Hull and Ovechkin vs. Richard I did a few months ago for another thread (before Ovechkin won his 7th goal-scoring title and Conn Smythe):
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/143236413/
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/143244239/
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Where are they on the opposition that Ovechkin faces? Hull faced greater talents on the Canadiens, Leafs, Wings alone. 42 out of 70 games.
Trusted players play with rookies all the time be it Crosby and others down to Hull,Beliveau,Howe and many others.
Outside of this season that saw a sizable increase in scoring, ppg was roughly top 5 in points in all those years. Given that Jagr has 7 top5 finishes himself, that's a high watermark.
Let's look at their Hart voting records
Ovechkin 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6
Jagr 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 6
Add to that the fact that Ovechkin will get something for this year and would have got something for 13/14 if his team was better, and the gap in the number of elite seasons starts to open up.
Troubadour
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Well, Ovi won no Hart in his Bondra years either; that's why I dubbed them the "Bondra years".
Those years a player scores fifty goals but does little else otherwise. I understand Ovi's fans will go "look how many times he scored fifty goals!", but the other people may go "look how many players looked and played better in those years!"
Anyway, I originally tackled the opinion Ovi has been elite longer than Jagr was; not necessarily the notion he sits higher on the all-time list.
BayStreetBully
Registered User
I’d have to think about it more, but on its face, I can see a discussion in comparing Ovechkin to anyone outside of Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe.
As mentioned above, I can begin to see an argument for Ovechkin above Richard and Hull level, and vice versa. His cup and Smythe last night changes the entire discussion.
As mentioned above, I can begin to see an argument for Ovechkin above Richard and Hull level, and vice versa. His cup and Smythe last night changes the entire discussion.
Plural
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Seems fitting for a guy who had the worst 50 goal season in the history of the NHL.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Some more population based nonsensensical argument.Please read and try to understand the point raised by Bill James in the attached.
Shakespeare and Verlander | Articles | Bill James Online
Basically the point is that the population size, provenance or whatever coloration you wish to introduce does not matter.
What matters is what a given society which to develope at the elite athletic, academic, artistic, scientific or any endeavour,
In the fifties and sixties the NHL wanted complete hockey players on dynasty teams to attract eyeballs and profit.
Today the NHL wants parity and entertainment to attract eyeballs and profit.
The size of the league,world population or provenance of the players does not matter.
No, he would not have. Benn placed 12th in 14/15 on a non-playoff team while having a better season. OV was a -35 that year.
OV loses at least one, maybe two of those Harts to Hasek.
BayStreetBully
Registered User
Population matters somewhat, it’s just a matter of to what degree. I place very little importance (but still some), but there’s no right or wrong.
You can also begin to compare the three even without the population argument.
Benn was nominated for Lindsay in 14/15 and definitely deserved better in Hart voting if not for the silly tendency of snubbing players on non-playoff teams.
Ovechkin in 13/14 was not nominated for Lindsay, but if Lindsay votes were public, he would definitely be top10. Which is where he should have been in Hart voting too if had the vote been on the quality of the player's season only.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Even is this were true, how much does a 10th place in Lindsay voting add to OV's legacy? Especially since you are a big proponent of putting little value on a players' 8th or 9th best season.
What does it have to do with the fact that top10 in a six-team league is an average first-liner?
Guys like Hall and MacKinnon would have never had the career seasons they had this year in a six-team league, because they would have started the season buried on the third line and 2nd PP unit.
Which is why leads over peers, be it #1 over #2 or #2 over #10 were wider in the 60s.
If we are to compare Richard vs. Ovechkin or any other pair from these eras, we have to account for that.
edog37
Registered User
I sense bitterness over 2009.....
Ovechkin is not greater than Crosby by any means. Sid has been to 4 Finals, won 3 & 2 Conn Smythes. His team has beaten Ovechkin 3 times in the playoffs over the course of their respective careers. Though with this win, I could reasonably place Ovechkin top 15....
