Where does Ovie now rank all time?

[895]

In terms of accomplishments Ovechkin is pretty much as close to Hull as you can get. Less Art Ross but more Hart.

I really have no idea what to make of Hull's WHA career. I don't think it does much for his legacy. Ovechkin going to the KHL and lighting it up there doesn't do much for me either.

Ovechkin probably still has at least one more goal scoring title left in him. That would put him above Hull in goal scoring titles, raw goals and adjusted goals.

Wouldn't that be enough to not only make him the greatest goal scorer but also the greatest winger outside of Howe?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Really, the only thing Bobby Hull has over Ovechkin at this point is longevity, and even that isn't by that much.

I think I'd rank Ovechkin over Jagr at this point. Similar quality peaks, but Ovechkin's longevity as an elite player is actually quite a bit longer than Jagr's at this point, and Ovechkin has the signature playoff run (not to mention leadership) that always alluded Jagr. Jagr, of course, beats everyone but Howe in terms of longevity as a productive player, but that just isn't as important to me.

 

[Wings4Life]

Ovechkin is greater than Crosby (or has an excellent case at least). He's a top 10 player of all time now without a doubt.

How many players with at least 16 major individual NHL awards are there outside the top 10 players of all time?

 

[The Panther]

How many players with at least 16 major individual NHL awards are there outside the top 10 players of all time?

Probably at least a few, given that the Conn Smythe didn't exist until 1965 and the Richard trophy didn't exist until 1999.

Ovechkin is obviously up there in the top-20 somewhere, but top-10 might still be a stretch. For me, he doesn't really have the elite skill-level of a lot of similarly accomplished players. (I'm talking when measured against the greatest players of all time, mind. Obviously I know Ovechkin has elite skill. Okay? Okay.)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ovechkin is greater than Crosby (or has an excellent case at least). He's a top 10 player of all time now without a doubt.

How many players with at least 16 major individual NHL awards are there outside the top 10 players of all time?

The "top 10" is becoming awfully crowded. First, you have the big 4.

My next tier would be (in no particular order): Beliveau, Hull, Richard, Crosby, Ovechkin, Morenz, Harvey, Bourque, Roy... and one could certainly argue a couple more names there. So top 10 easily becomes top 13/top 15 when you look at everyone who is in that next tier after the big 4.

__________________

Edit: I realize after posting this that it does feel a little strange to have Ovechkin and Crosby in the same tier, when I think Crosby has been just a tiny bit better over the course of their careers. And yet, I don't really know if I should have Bobby Hull a tier over Ovechkin.... Hmmm...

 

[The Panther]

1st AST: 7 for both
2nd AST: 1 for Jagr, 4 for Ovy. Advantage Ovy
Hart: 1 for Jagr, 3 for Ovy. Advantage Ovy
Art Ross: 5 for Jagr, 1 for Ovy. Advantage Jagr
Rockets: 0 for Jagr, 7 for Ovy. Advantage Ovy
Team success while being the top guy: advantage Ovy
Playoffs: advantage Ovy
International: advantage Jagr

Ovy is also ahead of physicality, leadership, and the excitement factor. Jagr was no slouch here, but Ovy is among the best that ever was.

Their primes are actually not too dissimilar, as they were both the force of nature, unstoppable. But to me Ovy is now starting to pull ahead.

That's fine if you want to blindly trophy-count, but I don't think that's the way to do it. Is a Richard trophy equal to an Art Ross win? To me, it's not. But just overall, I see Jagr as a much more individually elite player than Ovechkin. Not as good as shooting the puck, to be sure, but better in skill/ability at pretty much everything else. I just cannot see Ovechkin scoring 123 points at age 33 and leading the scoring race (until the last two games) as Jagr did. I don't think he has that kind of elite talent, in general.

But whatever, they're both amazing. The thing that continues to amaze me most about Ovechkin is how he takes a licking and keeps on ticking. Nothing can stop him, physically -- he's The Juggernaut of hockey. At this point, I'm convinced he'll never have a serious injury no matter what.

 

[JackSlater]

About the same as before, though he benefits from having a very strong playoff run. Certainly in strong contention for a top ten spot. I'm glad that Washington beat Las Vegas.

 

[Michael Farkas]

You'd have to seriously subject yourself to trophy counting to make a good case for Ovechkin over Crosby...let's talk about Jagr first and see where we get...

Like TDMM said, not everyone can be a top-10 player of all time. We're also going to attempt to judge this in this BuzzFeed era, knee-jerkiest "OMG this is best/worst thing ever" way...which will taint opinions...

Ovechkin was third or fourth on my Conn Smythe ballot...which isn't a knock on him, this was his best playoffs ever because he wasn't running around like a chicken with its head cut off...but top-10 player? I'm not sure I'm there yet and I think it's pretty easy to keep him out of that conversation even still...

 

[895]

You'd have to seriously subject yourself to trophy counting to make a good case for Ovechkin over Crosby...let's talk about Jagr first and see where we get...

Like TDMM said, not everyone can be a top-10 player of all time. We're also going to attempt to judge this in this BuzzFeed era, knee-jerkiest "OMG this is best/worst thing ever" way...which will taint opinions...

Ovechkin was third or fourth on my Conn Smythe ballot...which isn't a knock on him, this was his best playoffs ever because he wasn't running around like a chicken with its head cut off...but top-10 player? I'm not sure I'm there yet and I think it's pretty easy to keep him out of that conversation even still...

I have Ovechkin at 2. Surely you're not putting Fleury and Holtby above him?

 

[Sentinel]

That's fine if you want to blindly trophy-count, but I don't think that's the way to do it. Is a Richard trophy equal to an Art Ross win? To me, it's not. But just overall, I see Jagr as a much more individually elite player than Ovechkin. Not as good as shooting the puck, to be sure, but better in skill/ability at pretty much everything else. I just cannot see Ovechkin scoring 123 points at age 33 and leading the scoring race (until the last two games) as Jagr did. I don't think he has that kind of elite talent, in general.

But whatever, they're both amazing. The thing that continues to amaze me most about Ovechkin is how he takes a licking and keeps on ticking. Nothing can stop him, physically -- he's The Juggernaut of hockey. At this point, I'm convinced he'll never have a serious injury no matter what.

So you prefer point-counting to trophy-counting. Well, I don't. There is a reason AR winners arent automatically MVPs.

Also you seem to confuse late (Brett Hull) Ovechkin with early Ovechkin (Bobby Hull), a much faster, more diverse player.

The fact that Ovechkin barely missed any time over 13 years is pretty darn unprecedented and benefitted his team tremendously. Every Caps opponent builds their game strategy around containing him. His mere presence in the lineup allowed freedom to his teammates that they otherwise wouldn't have.

And, again: unlike Hull, Yzerman, Crosby, and Jagr, Ovechkin never had the benefit of playing with another generational talent.

 

[Troubadour]

Really, the only thing Bobby Hull has over Ovechkin at this point is longevity, and even that isn't by that much.

I think I'd rank Ovechkin over Jagr at this point. Similar quality peaks, but Ovechkin's longevity as an elite player is actually quite a bit longer than Jagr's at this point, and Ovechkin has the signature playoff run (not to mention leadership) that always alluded Jagr. Jagr, of course, beats everyone but Howe in terms of longevity as a productive player, but that just isn't as important to me.

If Ovechkin was "elite" during all those years he was another Peter Bondra (but worse) in terms of production, then Jagr was probably still elite in his early forties, and he was elite even during his lost years with the Caps.

So no. Wrong you are as far as the bolded goes.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Fleury has been at the top of the list steadfastly until about three days ago. I weight towards the final rounds, but Fleury was immaculate through three rounds and was put into an impossible spot really in the Final. The question is whether he's 3 or 4 with Ovechkin. Holtby took his spot at the top. Timely, plus goaltending since coming in.

I'm assuming he doesn't have the save pct. or some nonsense and that's why he's not getting any credit...but he's been the biggest impact player on the Capitals and it was by a fair margin until Kuznetsov muddied the water with such a strong Final.

This Smythe is a career achievement award for Ovechkin...it's not a "weak" one, per se...but I think he's in the next tier below Holtby and Kuznetsov certainly, who put a small gap between themselves and the rest of the pack...

 

[Canadiens1958]

In terms of accomplishments Ovechkin is pretty much as close to Hull as you can get. Less Art Ross but more Hart.

I really have no idea what to make of Hull's WHA career. I don't think it does much for his legacy. Ovechkin going to the KHL and lighting it up there doesn't do much for me either.

Ovechkin probably still has at least one more goal scoring title left in him. That would put him above Hull in goal scoring titles, raw goals and adjusted goals.

Wouldn't that be enough to not only make him the greatest goal scorer but also the greatest winger outside of Howe?

Congratulations to Conn Smythe winner Alexander Ovechkin and the 2018 Washington Capitals on winning the SC,their first. But let's not get carried away.

Bobby Hull in the NHL in a comparable number of games clearly showed that he was much better than Ovi at ES. Hull scored 439 ES goals to Ovi scoring 374 ES goals. 65 ES goal difference. Given that Ovi averages just under 30 ES goals a season, slightly more than two seasons will be required for him to catch-up. Also Hull regularly played on the PK scoring 19 SH goals to Ovi's 4(3 in his rookie season). Hull had a more complete and diversified game.

Ovi:
Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Hull:
Bobby Hull Stats | Hockey-Reference.com


This is before looking at quality of competition and linemates where Bobby Hull had a much higher degree of difficulty to overcome.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Personally, I would sooner do a re-evaluation of the true worth (in isolation) of finishing 1st in Goals in an individual season than putting Alex Ovechkin at 32-years-old over Jaromir Jagr’s career.

That stretch where he scored 50 goals for 3-straight years (2014-2016) and won three Rocket Richard Trophies and was a sub-point-per-game player didn’t do a whole lot for me. In 2016, Kane finished 4 goals back while having triple the assists. There are balanced offensive players playing better offensive hockey, whereas Ovechkin is able to get big bold numbers in the Goals column on the back of his hockey cards from being singularly focused as a trigger man.

5 of the last 6 Rocket Richard Trophies, but in that six-season overlap, he’s outscored on a per-game level by six other players. It would be seven, but Benn didn’t breakout until 2013-14, so he’s marginally behind Ovechkin.

Compare that to the six-season stretch where Bobby Hull won 5 of 6 goal scoring titles while also being the best overall per-game scorer because he was more well-rounded offensively.

Hell, compare Ovechkin’s first six seasons (only two Rocket Richard Trophies) to the last six (five Rocket Richard Trophies).

 

[ImporterExporter]

You have to put a huge emphasis on trophy counting and ignore international successes as well to put Ovechkin over Crosby because of 1 Cup. Crosby is the most decorated active player in the league when you look at the overall scope of a player. Team success, individual success. Sid's been an elite goal scorer in the league, an elite playmaker. Member of the quadruple gold club. And honestly, nobody can say with a straight face that the individual trophy case, which does favor 8, would be in his favor if Sid didn't miss a shitload of time to freak/deliberate injuries smack dab in the middle of his prime. Them's the breaks sometimes, but you need to accept context IMO.

This certainly moves Ovechkin into the top 20ish area for me. OK Smythe. Not great, not weak. He was the soul of the team, no doubt about it and he scored some big goals for Washington. If you put emphasis on the later rounds, Kuzy was the better player but he wasn't going to win the Smythe unless he won the scoring race by double digits. Similiar to Crosby in 16 who won despite being 3 points behind Kessel.

I'll take Ovechkin over Jagr at this point. But he's not past Hull or Crosby. He certainily has a much better chance now that he's tasted a championship, so we'll have to see how the next few years unfold before guys like 87 and 8 get into their twilight years.

 

[Laineux]

If Ovechkin was "elite" during all those years he was another Peter Bondra (but worse) in terms of production, then Jagr was probably still elite in his early forties, and he was elite even during his lost years with the Caps.

Hmm? What do you mean? Peter Bondra doesn't have a single top 10 point finish - what do you mean by Ovechkin being a "worse" Peter Bondra?

 

[Wings4Life]

Probably at least a few, given that the Conn Smythe didn't exist until 1965 and the Richard trophy didn't exist until 1999.

So, zero?

Some awards didn't exist in the old days sure, but there were also far less teams in the league, less competition, and half the world wasn't involved until 1990 or so.

 

[Sentinel]

Congratulations to Conn Smythe winner Alexander Ovechkin and the 2018 Washington Capitals on winning the SC,their first. But let's not get carried away.

Bobby Hull in the NHL in a comparable number of games clearly showed that he was much better than Ovi at ES. Hull scored 439 ES goals to Ovi scoring 374 ES goals. 65 ES goal difference. Given that Ovi averages just under 30 ES goals a season, slightly more than two seasons will be required for him to catch-up. Also Hull regularly played on the PK scoring 19 SH goals to Ovi's 4(3 in his rookie season). Hull had a more complete and diversified game.

Ovi:
Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Hull:
Bobby Hull Stats | Hockey-Reference.com


This is before looking at quality of competition and linemates where Bobby Hull had a much higher degree of difficulty to overcome.

So ES goals are somehow more valuable than PPG? Says who?
And if you look at the quality of competition, you may look at the quality of teammates. Ovechkin didn't have what Hull, Jagr, Crosby, Yzerman, and Esposito had: a generational talent on their team, routinely beating them for the Hart Trophies. And as far as "competition" goes, Ovechkin doesn't have the late 60s expansion teams to feast upon. The parity in today's League is much bigger than in Hull's days.

Right now Ovy is above Hull based on both teammates and competition. If Ovy wins another Rocket, there is no argument for Hull anymore.

 

[Sentinel]

You have to put a huge emphasis on trophy counting and ignore international successes as well to put Ovechkin over Crosby because of 1 Cup. Crosby is the most decorated active player in the league when you look at the overall scope of a player. Team success, individual success. Sid's been an elite goal scorer in the league, an elite playmaker. Member of the quadruple gold club. And honestly, nobody can say with a straight face that the individual trophy case, which does favor 8, would be in his favor if Sid didn't miss a ****load of time to freak/deliberate injuries smack dab in the middle of his prime. Them's the breaks sometimes, but you need to accept context IMO.

This certainly moves Ovechkin into the top 20ish area for me. OK Smythe. Not great, not weak. He was the soul of the team, no doubt about it and he scored some big goals for Washington. If you put emphasis on the later rounds, Kuzy was the better player but he wasn't going to win the Smythe unless he won the scoring race by double digits. Similiar to Crosby in 16 who won despite being 3 points behind Kessel.

I'll take Ovechkin over Jagr at this point. But he's not past Hull or Crosby. He certainily has a much better chance now that he's tasted a championship, so we'll have to see how the next few years unfold before guys like 87 and 8 get into their twilight years.

I rank them as follows now:

Crosby
Ovechkin / Jagr
Hull

I do want to mention that health and actual games played are a factor in my evaluation of players. Crosby didn't help his team by sitting out (well, he kinda did, because Malkin played better without him in the lineup, but you know what I mean). Ovechkin gets extra bonus for being healthy. He is behind Crosby based on the number of deep runs and certainly on international success, but the gap is much smaller than before.

 

[Michael Farkas]

So, zero?

Some awards didn't exist in the old days sure, but there were also far less teams in the league, less competition, and half the world wasn't involved until 1990 or so.

Oh, one of these people...yawn/sigh...

 

[ImporterExporter]

I rank them as follows now:

Crosby
Ovechkin / Jagr
Hull

I do want to mention that health and actual games played are a factor in my evaluation of players. Crosby didn't help his team by sitting out (well, he kinda did, because Malkin played better without him in the lineup, but you know what I mean). Ovechkin gets extra bonus for being healthy. He is behind Crosby based on the number of deep runs and certainly on international success, but the gap is much smaller than before.

Agreed all around. I do think people have to completely ignore Hull's time in the WHA to put Ovechkin over him. Hull played in a ridiculously deep era for top end talent and both are 1A/1B in terms of goal scoring. Hull was a pretty strong playoff performer (slightly better than Ovechkin overall IMO). Both enjoy strong longevity and durability.

I'd go (of those guys)

Hull/Crosby
Ovechkin
Jagr

But Ovechkin certainly closed the gap on the 2 guys above him. Put 8 around 20 all time for me. Another strong playoff run/title and you can then strongly argue him over Sid/Hull. Going to be interesting to see how next year plays out. You know Crosby is going to want to come back with a vengence after seeing Washington win it all. If he stays healthy I suspect a very strong run from 87 given how the playoffs went this year plus the added rest he's getting now.

 

[K Fleur]

Like Crosby the past two seasons Ovechkin has answered any question as to if he belongs in the tier of players immediately after the big 4. The Hull, Beliveau, Richard, Roy, Bourque, Jagr etc tier. Clearly above the Sakic, Yzerman etc. tier

Where he ranks among them is hard because they are all amazing. I imagine it comes down to personal preference for many people.

 

[seventieslord]

That's correct. Ovy also has the physical presence, the leadership, and the *it* factor. It was a no-brainer, really.

I guess just like 2009 was a no-brainer, eh?

 

[Canadiens1958]

So ES goals are somehow more valuable than PPG? Says who?
And if you look at the quality of competition, you may look at the quality of teammates. Ovechkin didn't have what Hull, Jagr, Crosby, Yzerman, and Esposito had: a generational talent on their team, routinely beating them for the Hart Trophies. And as far as "competition" goes, Ovechkin doesn't have the late 60s expansion teams to feast upon. The parity in today's League is much bigger than in Hull's days.

Right now Ovy is above Hull based on both teammates and competition. If Ovy wins another Rocket, there is no argument for Hull anymore.

No one claimed that ES goals were more valuable than PP goals. However teams not talking penalties would have an easier time defending Ovechkin than BobbyHull. So ES performance has always been more important than PP performance and Hull has a big edge.

Bobby Hull won his first Art Ross and led the NHL in goals during the 1959-60 season playing with two rookies - Bill Hay and Murray Balfour,facing future HHOF goaltenders in app 80% of the games and at two future HHOF defencemen per team in most games.

Ovechkin has never played a full NHL season with two rookies, faces future HHOF goaltenders perhaps 30 out of 82 games, and future HHOF defenceman, maybe 1 per team every three games.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I guess just like 2009 was a no-brainer, eh?

Heh, I'd say Ovechkin in 2018 was very similar to Crosby in 2009. Ive always called Crosby in 2009 as one of the best performances not to win the Smythe.

The difference to me is that I juat thought 2009 Malkin was just even more dominant than 2018 Kuznetsov.