Nathaniel Skywalker
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2013
- 13,827
- 5,400
Lol oh 18 year old crosby who had one of the greatest rookie season of all time. Gotcha
Where does Crosby rank all time when he retires?
- Thread starter SeanMoneyHands
- Start date
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Sure both things can be true but it would be nice to see someone make the argument right?
I've participated in the HOH sections rankings in the past and often read there to get information, opinions and insight and the original poster made a very good point in how hard it use, using a realistic hockey argument, to leave Crosby outside the top 10 at this point.
This has come up with Crosby being compared to Beliveau and those having Jean usually indicate around the SC differences or some weak era type of arguments as crosby pretty much has him beat by any other metric.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
Beliveau and Crosby have basically identical Hart records.
Beliveau: 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,3,4
Crosby: 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,4,4
Nearly identical point finishes:
Beliveau: 1,2,2,3,3,3,3,4
Crosby: 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5
2 Smythes for Crosby to 1 for Beliveau with the caveat that the Smythe didn't exist for 6 of Beliveau's Cups. Plus nearly identical career playoff PPGs with 1.08 for Beliveau to 1.11 for Crosby.
Crosby's Hart and point finishes are significantly superior to Beliveau's when you compare them to their respective peers.
This should give Crosby an edge.
Sure there is an argument there that they are close but the difference is in off years Crosby was a much better performer than Jean was.
I'm on my phone so I can't do a year by year breakdown but it's been done before.
For sure top10, borderline top5.
McDavid is destined to take the 5th spot eventually.. and actually make it top5, rather than top4.
McDavid is destined to take the 5th spot eventually.. and actually make it top5, rather than top4.
banks
Only got 5/16
- Aug 29, 2019
- 3,441
- 4,974
I rank him 5th.
I don't mind when others put him lower. Some people value the goaltending position enough to put Roy or Hasek at 5, or they think Ovie or McDavid get the 5th spot over Sid. Fine enough when people deep dive in history to say someone else goes ahead, too.
But it's pretty unreasonable to put him outside the top 10. You're just trying to come up with names to push him out at that point.
I don't mind when others put him lower. Some people value the goaltending position enough to put Roy or Hasek at 5, or they think Ovie or McDavid get the 5th spot over Sid. Fine enough when people deep dive in history to say someone else goes ahead, too.
But it's pretty unreasonable to put him outside the top 10. You're just trying to come up with names to push him out at that point.
gritdash60
Registered User
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Crosby
Then at the 5th is a crapshoot between Orr, Lidström, Jagr and others.
Orr is so overrated, having 6 good seasons in the NHL does not compare to the actual greats who do it for around 20years. Was he good? yeah possibly the best defender ever but it was too short of a stint to call him top5. I pick Lidström over Orr any day of the week.
And i hate to do it because hes Swedish.
Lemieux
Howe
Crosby
Then at the 5th is a crapshoot between Orr, Lidström, Jagr and others.
Orr is so overrated, having 6 good seasons in the NHL does not compare to the actual greats who do it for around 20years. Was he good? yeah possibly the best defender ever but it was too short of a stint to call him top5. I pick Lidström over Orr any day of the week.
And i hate to do it because hes Swedish.
More accurately, Lidstrom finished ahead of Crosby when he was a rookie, and when he was injured. That's it.
Right now I think he's finishing 6th or 7th.
However, a long career and cracking fifth all time in points could get him into Top 5.
However, a long career and cracking fifth all time in points could get him into Top 5.
gritdash60
Registered User
I dont care about the top5 as much as some people here do, but Lidström is over Orr and its not even close.
7 Norris trophies and 4 cups, and you think this dude is better than him? LOL
7 Norris trophies and 4 cups, and you think this dude is better than him? LOL
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
- 55,744
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To clarify MY opinion: there isn't a strong argument to leave Crosby outside the Top 10, so anyone doing so much have an agenda outside valid reasoning (ie. dislike of Crosby) or basing it on something that isn't generally what one would consider "strong hockey knowledge" based argument (ie. who has more Cups, who has the highest singular peak season, who scored more goals in a particular season, etc.).
As I said, goalies are tricky because of the nature of it being an entirely different entity, but I don't see a strong argument for any of those position players you listed for being superior to Crosby, not when you factor in trophy case, Hart/Ross finishes, longevity of what he's done and his all-time rank in the various statistical categories.
"Orr retired having scored 270 goals and 645 assists for 915 points in 657 games, adding 953 penalty minutes. At the time of his retirement, he was the leading defenceman in league history in goals, assists and points, tenth overall in assists and 19th in points."
and "Twice he won the Art Ross Trophy for leading the league in scoring (that's twice more than any defenseman in the game's history). No defenseman besides Orr has ever led the league in assists; he did it five times. Not only was the first defenseman to record 100 assists in a season, he was the first player to do so".
so because of advances in medical care Orr isn't worthy?
also Orr had 8 Norris wins
gritdash60
Registered User
I am aware of Orr's accolades, and i still think Lidström is superior player.
Crosby has two top goal finishes, one top assist finish - in a league without Gretzky or Lemieux. If he's top-5, the gap between top 4 and him is not nonexistent. He's above Messier, but below the big 4. The amount of the variables between players make it really hard to determine if he is top-5 (one could argue McDavid above him already, but it's slightly early IMO) or top-10 or just slightly out. He has not been head and shoulders above his current comparables ever, but been just a little above or close enough for long enough time to really matter.
Ehh and I won't make strong arguement for anyone in the next tier, just as I won't about Crosby, just picking up some points for him... okay, maybe...
Lidström - more Norrises
Hasek - more Vezinas
McDavid - more young
Jagr - more hair
Henri Richard - more cups
Roy - more angry
Ovechkin - idk underrated playmaker
Bourque - more NHL teams retired his number
Malkin - more debate about them belonging in top100
Olli Jokinen - more memes
Oh and Orr is greater than Lidström, don't be silly, coming from a big Lidström fan.
Ehh and I won't make strong arguement for anyone in the next tier, just as I won't about Crosby, just picking up some points for him... okay, maybe...
Lidström - more Norrises
Hasek - more Vezinas
McDavid - more young
Jagr - more hair
Henri Richard - more cups
Roy - more angry
Ovechkin - idk underrated playmaker
Bourque - more NHL teams retired his number
Malkin - more debate about them belonging in top100
Olli Jokinen - more memes
Oh and Orr is greater than Lidström, don't be silly, coming from a big Lidström fan.
Perhaps a superior career when factoring in longevity and consistency. A superior player? The analysis suggests otherwise. Orr's peak is only surpassed by Super Mario and the Great One. No one else comes close.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
Voight
#winning
So first of all its 9 seasons - his rookie year where he was a Norris nominee and 2nd AST + followed by his 8 straight Norris wins.
Short career or not, he did more in 9 seasons than any other defensemen and accomplished more than every player with the exception of Gretzky & Howe. Orr won 8 Norris, 3 Hart trophies (that he won consecutively, he and Gretzky are the only players to have done that) and 2 Art Ross' all before he turned 27.
And Crosby has more Rosses, Harts, Lindsays and Smythes than some players you rated above him.
edog37
Registered User
4th GOAT
Lemieux, Orr, Gretzky, Crosby, Howe
There’s your list in order
Lemieux, Orr, Gretzky, Crosby, Howe
There’s your list in order
Don'tcry4mejanhrdina
Registered User
Lidstrom better than Orr? And it not even being close? Wow. He might not even be better than Bourque if you're going by length of career/consistency. Lidstrom was remarkably consistent but Bourque was even more so throughout his 22 year career.
TheGuiminator
I’ll be damned King, I’ll be damned
- Oct 23, 2018
- 2,002
- 1,722
You can make a case anywhere between 5th and 10th
As far as i'm concern, i'm not quite comfortable putting him at 5th since this spot belongs to McDavid (once he wins Cup and a Smythe).. I guess you can have Crosby temporarly at 5th but that would be a distant 5th.. That being said, 6 or 7 would be more appropriate.
In order to have Crosby convincingly at 5th, he'll have to win another major award and keep his PPG streak intact.
As far as i'm concern, i'm not quite comfortable putting him at 5th since this spot belongs to McDavid (once he wins Cup and a Smythe).. I guess you can have Crosby temporarly at 5th but that would be a distant 5th.. That being said, 6 or 7 would be more appropriate.
In order to have Crosby convincingly at 5th, he'll have to win another major award and keep his PPG streak intact.
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 14,751
- 3,671
Top 5 but McDavid will surpass him in about two months with a 40 point playoff leading Oilers to a Cup.
