Where does Crosby rank all time when he retires?

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Legit chance he breaks into the top 5 of points scored ever.

Anyone having him outside the top 10 will become laughable when it is all said and done.

 

[kevsh]

He's not quite in reach of the generally considered top 4 - for one, they each had extended periods where they were by far (way, way above the pack) the best player in the world - but it's getting tough to argue against the #5 spot.

So I have him #6-10 for now as a few of the others in that area were simply way before my time as an excuse not to get into direct comparisons for which I'm not quite qualified.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

He's not quite in reach of the generally considered top 4 - for one, they each had extended periods where they were by far (way, way above the pack) the best player in the world - but it's getting tough to argue against the #5 spot.

So I have him #6-10 for now as a few of the others in that area were simply way before my time as an excuse not to get into direct comparisons for which I'm not quite qualified.

Crosby was the leagues leading scorer on march 30, 2013 then broke his jaw. He was not passed in the scoring race until April 24, 2013. A full 25 days. 10 games for st louis to pass him. The season ended on the 28th. The following year he won the art ross by 17 points. Crosby was way way above the pack at his peak as well.

 

[kevsh]

Crosby was way way above the pack at his peak as well.

True, he separated himself for a few seasons but not the same way, or for as long, as guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr & Howe did, that's all.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

True, he separated himself for a few seasons but not the same way, or for as long, as guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr & Howe did, that's all.

Gretzky lemieux. Ill give you. Orr is a d man so ill leave him out. But howe? Played in his prime against strictly canadian players. Crosby plays in a much deeper era. I think this notion is gaining traction as well

 

[Regal]

Gretzky lemieux. Ill give you. Orr is a d man so ill leave him out. But howe? Played in his prime against strictly canadian players. Crosby plays in a much deeper era. I think this notion is gaining traction as well

Even if we say their advantage over the pack is similar due to competition though, which I think is a stretch, Howe still has full seasons at that level and the fuller overall career.

 

[DRW895]

Out of top 20 if you are not asking about points

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Even if we say their advantage over the pack is similar due to competition though, which I think is a stretch, Howe still has full seasons at that level and the fuller overall career.

Crosby has the most ppg+seasons of all time and consecutive. Maybe @Hockey Outsider if he has time or maybe he just knows lol can figure out crosbys scoring finishes even with his injuries against strictly canadian players top 10 finishes. I have a strong feeling its just as if not better. Crosby is also no slouch all around and routinley wins most complete player polls conducted by 600+ of the leagues players. Something that will greatly enhance his legacy in 50 years the same way all those articles and quotes about howes 2 way game help him now. As in many people claiming howe was also a great all around player never even seen or were alive in howes time.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Below McDavid

 

[bambamcam4ever]

True, he separated himself for a few seasons but not the same way, or for as long, as guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr & Howe did, that's all.

His ppg leads compared to other Canadian players was more impressive than Howe's

 

[Midnight Judges]

6th - behind Ovechkin probably.

Although it depends on the criteria. Ovechkin and Crosby may both be worth more than Lemieux and Orr in terms of total career value.

 

[hamzarocks]

6th - behind Ovechkin probably.

Although it depends on the criteria. Ovechkin and Crosby may both be worth more than Lemieux and Orr in terms of total career value.

Ovechkin with 900 goals is at best 8th at worst 11th

Way too many bad years after 2010 (2011, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2017), to be 5th he should have been top 5 player those years if he wanted to ahead of Crosby who himself is 6th to 8th at best

There is only 1 guy ever since 2006 who is at the level of the big 4

It isnt a capital or a penguin.

Only Mcdavid is on that level

 

[WalterLundy]

6th - behind Ovechkin probably.

Although it depends on the criteria. Ovechkin and Crosby may both be worth more than Lemieux and Orr in terms of total career value.

Care to elaborate on the career value thing and who your top 5 would be? I’m not saying you are wrong. Actually when you put it like that it is interesting to consider because of the shortened careers of Orr and Lemieux.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Care to elaborate on the career value thing and who your top 5 would be? I’m not saying you are wrong. Actually when you put it like that it is interesting to consider because of the shortened careers of Orr and Lemieux.

JMO but Howe and Gretzky don't really have any significant weaknesses on their resumes. I guess you could nitpick and say Gretzky wasn't physical.

Orr played half a career - 9 productive seasons, outside of which he was almost worthless. Lemieux played 915 regular season games - which is really not a lot.

A lot of people treat these missed games as if they are nothing. IMO they are not. The whole purpose of being a player is to contribute as much as possible to one's team and help them win. Hockey has a high randomness factor. Virtually any team can lose a game or even a series, and so being there to give your team additional playoff chances - that's important.

Clearly Orr was a better player than Ovechkin or Crosby, but was his per game value really more than double theirs? I think not.

Of course there is also this concept that concentrated value is worth more than accumulated value. I agree with this but I think people overrate concentrated value by a bit just like we tend to overrate individual impacts on team accomplishments.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin with 900 goals is at best 8th at worst 11th

Way too many bad years after 2010 (2011, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2017), to be 5th he should have been top 5 player those years if he wanted to ahead of Crosby who himself is 6th to 8th at best

There is only 1 guy ever since 2006 who is at the level of the big 4

It isnt a capital or a penguin.

Only Mcdavid is on that level

Mcdavid is most def not on that level. Has now been beaten 3 times healthy in his prime. All three times in ppg as well. Age 22, 23 and 27. Something improbable for gretzky and lemieux

 

[wetcoast]

JMO but Howe and Gretzky don't really have any significant weaknesses on their resumes. I guess you could nitpick and say Gretzky wasn't physical.

Orr played half a career - 9 productive seasons, outside of which he was almost worthless. Lemieux played 915 regular season games - which is really not a lot.

A lot of people treat these missed games as if they are nothing. IMO they are not. The whole purpose of being a player is to contribute as much as possible to one's team and help them win. Hockey has a high randomness factor. Virtually any team can lose a game or even a series, and so being there to give your team additional playoff chances - that's important.

Clearly Orr was a better player than Ovechkin or Crosby, but was his per game value really more than double theirs? I think not.

Of course there is also this concept that concentrated value is worth more than accumulated value. I agree with this but I think people overrate concentrated value by a bit just like we tend to overrate individual impacts on team accomplishments.

Agree with alot here as these are questions people should be asking when doing these types of rankings but to me Mario is the weak link in the Big 4 not Bobby Orr.

Orr literally tilted the ice 5 on 5 like no other player is history that we have records for, even in small sample bad Black Hawks teams post injury.

The case against Mario is 5 on 5 play and scoring some empty downhill point in blowout games but his strength is being the best PP player of all time and the best pure offensively skilled player as well.

Mcdavid is most def not on that level. Has now been beaten 3 times healthy in his prime. All three times in ppg as well. Age 22, 23 and 27. Something improbable for gretzky and lemieux

Sure but there are different league dynamics at play today that simply weren't around in the NHL in the 80 and even 90s.

The thing is that we can't accurately measure for those differences, it's a WAG (wild assed guess) situation and we can make cases for and against at best.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Agree with alot here as these are questions people should be asking when doing these types of rankings but to me Mario is the weak link in the Big 4 not Bobby Orr.

Orr literally tilted the ice 5 on 5 like no other player is history that we have records for, even in small sample bad Black Hawks teams post injury.

The case against Mario is 5 on 5 play and scoring some empty downhill point in blowout games but his strength is being the best PP player of all time and the best pure offensively skilled player as well.


Sure but there are different league dynamics at play today that simply weren't around in the NHL in the 80 and even 90s.

The thing is that we can't accurately measure for those differences, it's a WAG (wild assed guess) situation and we can make cases for and against at best.

Lemieux finished 2nd in ppg n 8th in scoring at 37 years old in 2003. A much rougher n lower scoring league. Im positive he would have no trouble winning art rosses with 74 gp in his prime today.

 

[wetcoast]

Lemieux finished 2nd in ppg n 8th in scoring at 37 years old in 2003. A much rougher n lower scoring league. Im positive he would have no trouble winning art rosses with 74 gp in his prime today.

Sure but would coaches tolerate his lack of 2 way play...sure to a certain extent but in todays NHL it's doubt full that he could dominate nor have the playoff success that he did with the non cap Pens in the early 90s.

Like I said it's hard to account for league dynamics and coahcing stlyes.

that year Mario was 4th in all star center voting and really does anyone doubt that a 33 year old Fedorov (who finished 5th) was not a better actual player still then just used in a different role.

 

[SquidNasty]

3rd. He's better than Orr, competition in the 60s/70s was laughable. Watched tons of his footage and the overall talent was just so weak.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Sure but would coaches tolerate his lack of 2 way play...sure to a certain extent but in todays NHL it's doubt full that he could dominate nor have the playoff success that he did with the non cap Pens in the early 90s.

Like I said it's hard to account for league dynamics and coahcing stlyes.

that year Mario was 4th in all star center voting and really does anyone doubt that a 33 year old Fedorov (who finished 5th) was not a better actual player still then just used in a different role.

The only top superstar scorer that has any type of 2 way game is Matthews. Mack mcdavid n kuch are not any better than Mario was

 

[wetcoast]

The only top superstar scorer that has any type of 2 way game is Matthews. Mack mcdavid n kuch are not any better than Mario was

McDavid's 2 way game is miles ahead of Mario and that's more Mario not being a very good 2 way player at all.

Mario was involved in his 2 way game much like Andrei Kuzmenko but of course he would get a longer leash due to his skill set but how long exactly?

 

[Three On Zero]

5th rather comfortably, league hasn’t seen a player like him since Lemieux

 

[HFpapi]

Whether he retires top-5 depends on when he retires and what McDavid does between now and then.

He's closer to top-5 than top-10 but I think it's likely that McDavid firmly surpasses him by the time Crosby retires. So top-10 but realistically 6th.

Spot on. I have Crosby 5th right now but if he plays 3 more seasons I have McDavid surpassing him by then so it's McDavid 5th and Crosby 6th and it will stay like that for a long time.

 

[heretik27]

5th rather comfortably, league hasn’t seen a player like him since Lemieux

Disagree, Hasek is comfortably 5th and was far more dominant over his peers than Crosby. I can't understand how a guy who only has 2 Art Ross's in nearly 2 decades of hockey is somehow considered the 5th best player of all time by some. Imo the media overhyped him and his injuries prevented him from ever achieving the lofty expectations that were set out for him. He's still a great player with an argument for top ten, but there's a lot of great players in the history of hockey.

 

[Three On Zero]

Disagree, Hasek is comfortably 5th and was far more dominant over his peers than Crosby. I can't understand how a guy who only has 2 Art Ross's in nearly 2 decades of hockey is somehow considered the 5th best player of all time by some. Imo the media overhyped him and his injuries prevented him from ever achieving the lofty expectations that were set out for him. He's still a great player with an argument for top ten, but there's a lot of great players in the history of hockey.

Because personal trophies don’t define how good a player is, Hasek was a dominant goaltender but he’s not the 5th best player