Where do you rank Messier on an all-time list?

[hockeyauthority]

So there are 12 people who have voted him 1-10? I just can't see it. Fortunately almost everyone else on this board agrees with me. Messier is a guy you need to look further into in order to vote for him properly. Looking at the stats sheet is useless and only the stat sheet is useless.

Yes, he has more points than Howe and everyone else not named Gretzky in NHL history. What the uneducated viewer will see is that Messier played in a high scoring era which explains the high point totals. Hey he did fine in that department, its just that there are some who did it much better. I mean Ron Francis has more points all time than Dionne and Esposito. Anyone care to explain Francis as the better scorer? He wasn't, but he has the longevity over the two of them so isn't it obvious that he'll get the points.

In reality it is a shame Messier hung around for so long when the game clearly passed him by. Now does that hurt what he did before? No, but because of that he ends up passing Howe on the all-time scoring list. We all know Messier is not Gordie Howe under any circumstance but it's stuff like this that contribute to people ranking him higher than he truly deserves to be. Howe had a 100 point season as a 40 year old. At that age Messier was a liability to his team.

By the way does anyone else think Ted Lindsay is a guy that can be ranked ahead of Messier? A good argument for sure

 

[seventieslord]

Are you implying that Mess was more valuable to the Oilers in nay sense at any time?

Put another way if the Oilers were to play without either of them during their 4 cup years which one would they miss more?

That's two different questions, really. If you're talking about that whole 5-year period that they won those five cups, of course Gretzky was more valuable. If you're talking about those 1984 playoffs and finals in particular, why is it so hard to believe that one player could be more valuable than Gretzky, especially against the physical Islanders who had an aura of invincibility?

 

[Hardyvan123]

That's two different questions, really. If you're talking about that whole 5-year period that they won those five cups, of course Gretzky was more valuable. If you're talking about those 1984 playoffs and finals in particular, why is it so hard to believe that one player could be more valuable than Gretzky, especially against the physical Islanders who had an aura of invincibility?

If it's the 2nd point then I'd agree that Mess could have been more valuable to the Oilers for that small stretch of games in the finals, not sure he was the better player during the whole playoffs than Gretzky though.

 

[Moridin]

Outside the top 25 probably, just on centers I have a hard time getting him in the top 10.

 

[oil4life97]

On the side note of Messier's Conn Smythe in 1984 I too am a person who would have given the award to Gretzky. You can't overlook what he did and even in that playoff run Gretzky did what he always did, he outscored everyone else by such a margin that no other extra intangible could make up for it. In the clinching Game 5 vs. the Isles Gretzky scored twice in the first period and assisted on another in the 2nd period. For all intents and purposes, that game was over before it started. I can see why the voters were desperate for someone else to win something after all Gretzky won everything for 4-5 years up until then. I can see why Mess might be taken, but I'd have sided with Gretzky.

Look, top 10 voters SPEAK UP. Let's ignore stuff about comparing Mess to Francis. This is not a fair fight for Francis. Compare Mess to the big boys. One poster claimed he was top 5. 16% of you rate him top 10. Explain yourselves. He is competing directly with Hull, Richard, Beliveau, Morenz, etc. I want too see a case on why you think he rates with those guys.

I rank Mess somewhere in the 8-10 range. Why do I rank him so high compared to others with more top 10 finishes? Messier was not only a great offensive player he had other parts of his game that cannot be equalled by Hull, Morenz etc.

Just ask guys like Joel Otto Jim Peplinski and other tough guys from the 80's and 90's what it was like play against Messier? He would score a goal one shift, next shift he would carve out someones face with his fist. This is a part of Messiers game that seems to be forgotten by many and these people want to only compare top ten finishes of other players to discredit Messier. Many people credit Messier to be one of the best leaders of all time. He is the only player in any pro sport to captain two seperate franchises to a championship.

So we have a guy here that played hard nosed hockey, willing to fight, be an offensive catalyst, and an awesome leader, score the 2nd most points ever in the NHL, play the 2nd most games ever in the NHL, 6 stanley cups, Conn Smythe trophy, Hart Trophy, and is deserving of 20+ rank of all time. I dont think so.

I may be a bit of a homer ranking him 8-10, maybe more realisticly 10-12 but there is no way he is not included in the top 15 players all time in my books. When I was about 12 years old I had the pleasure of playing street hockey with Messier, Chris Joseph, Bill Ranford, and others. Of all the players who were there Messier was the most interactive with us young kids. After an hour or so playing street hockey with these guys we were invited to Scona Cycle to get pictures taken, autographs, posters, etc. Messier did not leave until every kid that wanted his/her picture/poster signed had them signed. So this talk of Messier being a jerk doesn't bode well with me.

 

[sr edler]

what makes a lot of people look at him differently is that he played on those edmonton oilers teams in the 80s, look at the 84-85 playoffs for example, he was fifth in scoring on his own team, and a defenseman like charlie huddy scored a ppg behind him

jari kurri was also a playoff monster, with a very good defensive game, so i guess he's up there too, 10-15?

 

[Starchild74]

Everyone talks about Messier's number being helped by playing for the Oilers or playing in the 80's and early 90's. Then people mention that his point totals weren't that great. Well pick one which is it. Messier was never about numbers. Even though Messier ended up number 2 overall in points it is not what makes him so great. So many people on here seem to really undervalue Messier.

Since Messier came into the game in 1979 only 2 players are better then him. Gretzky and Lemieux.

Compare to other players in his era. Jagr was an offensive player but one dimensional. He won a bunch of Art Ross trophies but did he ever lead the Penguins to the Cup?

Raymond Bourque the best defenceman in the last 40 years. Would you really pick Bourque over Messier. Bourque was the best at his position but had to leave Boston to win a cup. As great as Bourque was in the regular season and yes good in the playoffs. Bourque was beaten alot in the playoffs. When Bourque had to go against the best players in the NHL in the playoffs in his prime guys like Lemieux, Gretzky, Messier, he always ended up on the short end of the stick and was out performed by these guys

Steve Yzerman probably the only guy in the last 40 years that can compare to Messier. He had better offensive seasons then Messier and was one of the best leaders in the game. It is just that Messier did so much more the Yzerman. He scored the bigger goals, handed out the bigger hits, and when he was counted on the most he rarely ever let his team down.

Comparing forwards to goalies is too hard because players do things in a game that goalies can't do. Goalies do two things really. They either make the save or let in a goal

One thing I am tired of his people talking about his Vancoucer days. Back then Vancouver was an aweful team. I suppose this is all Messier's fault. It is Messier's fault that the goaltending was horrible, It was his fault the defence was bad and of course it was his fault that he was injured as well.

How many times in a game did you see Messier come down the wing and snap a shot past the goalie. He might not have been the best goal scorer but it seemed like he was able to score some big goals. All New York fans will remember that it was he who scored the Stanley Cup winning goal ending a 54 year old slump.

Gretzky was the captain and the leader of the Oilers no question but Messier was the heart and sould of the team. Messier took it upon himself many of times to go out and change the complexion of the game whether it by scoring or by giving a hit or even at times hurting someone to make a point.

Messier went to New York and pretty much almost guaranteed a cup in New York. In his third season he did this. Everyone knows his heroics in game 6 of the Conference final. It might be legend but he did do these things. I have never heard of Bobby Orr, or Gordie Howe or any of the other greats, make statements like he did and then go out an do it. He had the whole city on his shoulders. Yet he still performed at a high level

If you just want to rank pure skill then yes Messier would probably not be in the top 30 of all time and guys like Kovalev would. When you are talking about ranking players it is more then just top ten finishes, or goals and assists. It is more about awards it is about a player. Messier played hard every night and even though his last few years he was not at the elite level that he was when he was younger. Unlike what some have said he wasn't a liability on the ice.

If Mark Messier stayed in the league to pass Gordie How and get number 2 all time then so what it is still an accomplishement. If it was so easy to do then how come more people couldn't do it. How many seasons did take Howe to get to his totals? What Messier did was very very remarkable because as some have said on here. Their are 25 other players that were better then him. His leadership wasn't that great considering he couldn't take a horrible team in Vancouver to the finals. He was only great becasue he played for the Oilers and that inflated his stats.

The truth his for a guy who is not given his due he is number 2 all time in points in the regular season and playoffs. Guys who are comparible to him like Trottier or Yzerman aren't that close to him. Not even Lemieux in his prime or Gretzky would have been able to take the Canucks in those years into the playoffs they were that aweful. His stats are probably deflated becasue of playing on the second line of the Oilers. Gretzky was known to be double or tripled shifted at times. Their were times when Gretzky played the whole powerplay and Messier at times never left the bench on the powerplay

Is Mark Messier in the top 10 I will not say but I do know he is at least in the top 15 and of all the players I have seen play at least 100 games Mark Messier is the 4th best player I have even seen behind Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux. With Esposito, Trottier, Yzerman, and Clarke right there with him.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Vancouver was an awfull team when Mess played here but he divided the locker room and had to be the man and forced Linden out of Vancouver as well. He hardly showed much leadership.

Stan Smyl was captain of some pretty bad Vancouver teams but led by example rather than just expected respect and dividing the room.

Messier was the wrong fit here, and I thought so at the time as well, but some of his leadership reputation got tarnished by that experience and deservedly so IMO.

As for his stats his lack of a truly dominant peak is what hurts him IMO and other players just had better peaks and I would take Bourque, Lidstrom, Stevie Y and even Jagr over him.

 

[SidGenoMario]

So far in this topic people are saying Messier is good because he:

-Could hit
-Could fight
-Was interactive with fans

I'm sorry, but intangibles can only move you so far. Messier was overshadowed offensively by many, many people. Was his defense good enough to make up for that difference in offense? That's the thing you should be debating.

 

[Big Phil]

Everyone talks about Messier's number being helped by playing for the Oilers or playing in the 80's and early 90's. Then people mention that his point totals weren't that great. Well pick one which is it. Messier was never about numbers. Even though Messier ended up number 2 overall in points it is not what makes him so great. So many people on here seem to really undervalue Messier.

I don't think anyone on these boards undervalues Mess. This is the History of Hockey board, the smartest people I have come across on the internet. It is just that people on this board realize the game has been played for such a long, long time and so many greats have come through. Sure Messier was more than just numbers, and I realize that looking just at top 10 finishes is not the whole story. But others had some intangibles too. Beliveau, Mikita both played well without the puck. Beliveau probably was the best captain of all-time. Hull was more noticeable and the play revolved around him more than it would Messier when he was on the ice, it isn't just the points they put up.

I think in a way Messier falls into a numbers game. He WAS a great one, no one should ever deny that, and his career is one of the best ever but there are some careers and players who did it better and made their mark on the league even bigger.

Compare to other players in his era. Jagr was an offensive player but one dimensional. He won a bunch of Art Ross trophies but did he ever lead the Penguins to the Cup?

Something tells me Messier wouldn't lead a team to the Cup whose 2nd best player was Martin Straka. No Jagr never won a cup without Mario. But that is a small part of the whole picture. Jagr was a great playoff performer who took mediocre teams further than they deserved to go. Maybe he didn't have the superb defensive game, but he falls into the category a few notches behind Lemieux and Gretzky in that he was such a shift disturber on the ice and so utterly dominant in the defensive end that your job was to stop Jagr and that was your focus, if you did that.

Peak wise Jagr beats Messier. Mess has 1990 as his best year. Not too shabby but I'll take Jagr in 1996 or even better 1999. Just a more dominant season.

Raymond Bourque the best defenceman in the last 40 years. Would you really pick Bourque over Messier. Bourque was the best at his position but had to leave Boston to win a cup. As great as Bourque was in the regular season and yes good in the playoffs. Bourque was beaten alot in the playoffs. When Bourque had to go against the best players in the NHL in the playoffs in his prime guys like Lemieux, Gretzky, Messier, he always ended up on the short end of the stick and was out performed by these guys

I personally would pick Bourque over Messier all-time. Bourque was a first team all-star his last season and his first season. Not to nitpick, but there were years in the 1980s where Bourque outscored Messier. As for having to "leave Boston to win a Cup" come on. Are we really going down that route? No one can blame Bourque for Boston's failures and especially at the time of his trade they weren't even trying to win and they knew it. So what the only times Bourque made the final he lost to the Oilers. 1988 with Gretzky in his peak and 1990 with a still very formidable Oilers team. I'm not sure I would consider Messier to have "outperformed" Bourque in the 1990 final either. Bourque as always did his part. He had two goals in Game 1 of that classic overtime duel in the final.

But in general, I could easily make a case for Bourque > Messier

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I rank Mess somewhere in the 8-10 range. Why do I rank him so high compared to others with more top 10 finishes? Messier was not only a great offensive player he had other parts of his game that cannot be equalled by Hull, Morenz etc.

Just ask guys like Joel Otto Jim Peplinski and other tough guys from the 80's and 90's what it was like play against Messier? He would score a goal one shift, next shift he would carve out someones face with his fist. This is a part of Messiers game that seems to be forgotten by many and these people want to only compare top ten finishes of other players to discredit Messier. Many people credit Messier to be one of the best leaders of all time. He is the only player in any pro sport to captain two seperate franchises to a championship.

So we have a guy here that played hard nosed hockey, willing to fight, be an offensive catalyst, and an awesome leader, score the 2nd most points ever in the NHL, play the 2nd most games ever in the NHL, 6 stanley cups, Conn Smythe trophy, Hart Trophy, and is deserving of 20+ rank of all time. I dont think so.

I may be a bit of a homer ranking him 8-10, maybe more realisticly 10-12 but there is no way he is not included in the top 15 players all time in my books. When I was about 12 years old I had the pleasure of playing street hockey with Messier, Chris Joseph, Bill Ranford, and others. Of all the players who were there Messier was the most interactive with us young kids. After an hour or so playing street hockey with these guys we were invited to Scona Cycle to get pictures taken, autographs, posters, etc. Messier did not leave until every kid that wanted his/her picture/poster signed had them signed. So this talk of Messier being a jerk doesn't bode well with me.

Messier as a feared fighter is a myth.

From 84/85 - 87/88, 4 prime years in Edmonton, Messier had five fights, according to HockeyFights.com. His opponents: Scott Arniel, Marc Bergevin, Jill Nill, Mike McPhee and Gary Roberts. Not exactly the heavyweight contenders of the day.

On YouTube you can see Messier fight Marty McSorley a couple times. He takes a beating both times.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Definitely some good pro-Messier posts this page - he was an all-around force who was not just about the numbers. But what fails to be brought up is any real context. Most of the players in the Top 50 were not like Marcel Dionne, someone who was all about regular season points, but were loaded with intangibles, leadership and defensive play as well... Yet have much higher peaks than Messier, which I highly value. In order to place Messier in the Top 10, you need to directly compare him to forwards like Hull, Beliveau Richard and Morenz, goalies like Hasek, Plante and Roy and defenseman like Harvey, Shore and Bourque. To get in the Top 20 you need to directly compare him to Guys like Mikita, Potvin, Lidstrom, LaFleur, Esposito and Clarke.

Trottier, a man of infinite intangibles and a higher peak is only 26 on this forum. Sakic and Yzerman are only 32nd and 36th respectively. They were certainly players who brought more than just numbers as well. Yet their peak and prime numbers still happen to be much better than Messier's.

 

[seventieslord]

Messier fought Jim Nill's wife?

 

[seventieslord]

As I thought it would, this thread has all the crazies on both sides of the debate.

We need a rally to restore sanity!

 

[oil4life97]

Peak wise Jagr beats Messier. Mess has 1990 as his best year. Not too shabby but I'll take Jagr in 1996 or even better 1999. Just a more dominant season.

A more dominant season than Messiers 90 season? Leading scorer(130pts) and Captain of the Stanley Cup Champs. Mess also Won the Hart Trophy that season as well. I guess we should should also value guys like Joe Thornton (who has yet to show up in the playoffs) for his great dominating regular seasons. I really do fail to see your logic here in picking Jagr over Mess. Jagr has a grand total of one better season then Mess (149 I think).

 

[oil4life97]

So far in this topic people are saying Messier is good because he:

-Could hit
-Could fight
-Was interactive with fans

I'm sorry, but intangibles can only move you so far. Messier was overshadowed offensively by many, many people. Was his defense good enough to make up for that difference in offense? That's the thing you should be debating.

HE IS THE #2 REGULAR SEASON SCORING LEADER AND #2 PLAYOFF SCORING LEADER OF ALL TIME. SO MANY PEOPLE CLAIM BECAUSE HE PLAYED IN EDMONTON WITH GRETZ HIS STATS ARE FLAWED, WHEN THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT THEY ARE DEFLATED. RARELY WERE MESS AND GRETZ ON THE ICE TOGETHER. HIS BEST SEASON SCORING WISE CAME IN 90 AFTER GRETZ WAS GONE. HE WAS #2 CENTRE IN EDMONTON UNTIL GRETZ WAS TRADED.

HIS PLAYOFF STATS ARE: GP 236 #3 ALL TIME
GOALS 109 #2 ALL TIME
ASSISTS 186 #2 ALL TIME
POINTS 295 #2 ALL TIME

THE LAST TIME I CHECKED THE PLAYOFFS ARE THE REASON WHY THEY HAVE THE REGULAR SEASON. HOW MANY PLAYERS HAVE OVERSHADOWED MESSIERS OFFENCE IN THE PLAYOFFS???????????

 

[oil4life97]

What the uneducated viewer will see is that Messier played in a high scoring era which explains the high point totals.

The uneducated viewers will also not see that Mess played second fiddle to Gretz until 88/89 when Gretz was traded. What happened after? Messier has his best offensive season at 130 pts in 89/90. If Mess plays first line minutes from 80/81 to 87/88, you don't think he has more points?

 

[Hardyvan123]

The uneducated viewers will also not see that Mess played second fiddle to Gretz until 88/89 when Gretz was traded. What happened after? Messier has his best offensive season at 130 pts in 89/90. If Mess plays first line minutes from 80/81 to 87/88, you don't think he has more points?

One season spike to 129 to place 2nd in the NHL then only 2 more times in the top 10 in points in a season at 5th and 10th.

His 129 points comes out to 108 points adjusted which is his peak and he has 2 more 95 adjusted point seasons.

His overall totals have both to do more with longevity and playoffs is more of a team stat, although Messier definitely was a driving force in his team playoff performances.

 

[zeus3007*]

How does the 2nd ranked scorer of all time end up getting ranked 20+ ????? The hate on for one of the all time greats here is laughable

Especially considering that was is almost the perfectly balanced player, physical, defensively sound, powerful anywhere on the ice, and a great leader. Messier is top ten of all time to me.

 

[zeus3007*]

Definitely some good pro-Messier posts this page - he was an all-around force who was not just about the numbers. But what fails to be brought up is any real context. Most of the players in the Top 50 were not like Marcel Dionne, someone who was all about regular season points, but were loaded with intangibles, leadership and defensive play as well... Yet have much higher peaks than Messier, which I highly value. In order to place Messier in the Top 10, you need to directly compare him to forwards like Hull, Beliveau Richard and Morenz, goalies like Hasek, Plante and Roy and defenseman like Harvey, Shore and Bourque. To get in the Top 20 you need to directly compare him to Guys like Mikita, Potvin, Lidstrom, LaFleur, Esposito and Clarke.

Trottier, a man of infinite intangibles and a higher peak is only 26 on this forum. Sakic and Yzerman are only 32nd and 36th respectively. They were certainly players who brought more than just numbers as well. Yet their peak and prime numbers still happen to be much better than Messier's.

You have put too much emphasis on peak season. You need to look at longevity as well. Messier is second overall in all time points for a reason.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

You have put too much emphasis on peak season. You need to look at longevity as well. Messier is second overall in all time points for a reason.

I wonder why. He played for 24 seasons, 14 of which were the highest scoring in NHL history by far.

 

[HangFromRafts]

Definitely some good pro-Messier posts this page - he was an all-around force who was not just about the numbers. But what fails to be brought up is any real context. Most of the players in the Top 50 were not like Marcel Dionne, someone who was all about regular season points, but were loaded with intangibles, leadership and defensive play as well... Yet have much higher peaks than Messier, which I highly value. In order to place Messier in the Top 10, you need to directly compare him to forwards like Hull, Beliveau Richard and Morenz, goalies like Hasek, Plante and Roy and defenseman like Harvey, Shore and Bourque. To get in the Top 20 you need to directly compare him to Guys like Mikita, Potvin, Lidstrom, LaFleur, Esposito and Clarke.

Trottier, a man of infinite intangibles and a higher peak is only 26 on this forum. Sakic and Yzerman are only 32nd and 36th respectively. They were certainly players who brought more than just numbers as well. Yet their peak and prime numbers still happen to be much better than Messier's.

This is a sound post.
Quite honestly, all most of what I've read up til this post is that "Moose is a top-ten player, just look at how many pts he has, cups he has, etc." Rabbins has just given you more than 10 guys for you to directly compare Messier to. Who (if any, and there probably aren't) would you guys remove from the top-10 and replace w/ Messier. Mess was a great player and brought a lot to the table, but being top 25 all time is nothing to sneeze at.

So who? Who from the top 10 is being removed to make way for Mess?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is a sound post.
Quite honestly, all most of what I've read up til this post is that "Moose is a top-ten player, just look at how many pts he has, cups he has, etc." Rabbins has just given you more than 10 guys for you to directly compare Messier to. Who (if any, and there probably aren't) would you guys remove from the top-10 and replace w/ Messier. Mess was a great player and brought a lot to the table, but being top 25 all time is nothing to sneeze at.

So who? Who from the top 10 is being removed to make way for Mess?

I have Messier 19th, ahead of Lafleur, Esposito, and Clarke but behind the Top 18 on the last HOH Top 100.

If you value forwards a lot higher than defensemen, I can see him being ranked ahead of Potvin or Kelly. Then there are some goalies ahead of him. Then Mikita, who has similar longevity but better regular season stats than Messier. If you really ignore regular season stats and just focus on playoffs, I can see Messier ahead of Mikita.

But that still isn't enough to push him into the top 10. You'd really have to have Messier ahead of Bourque, Shore, and Morenz to do that, as well as every goalie, and I just don't think that's justifiable.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

You have put too much emphasis on peak season. You need to look at longevity as well. Messier is second overall in all time points for a reason.

20 of the Top 30 career point leaders enjoyed a prime in the 80s - some context is definitely appropriate. I don't ignore career points, but typically value them more when a player was at his best and a major contributor to his team.

 

[JackSlater]

A comparison of Messier's top ten scoring finishes with those of his historic competition (who played in the NHL) among forwards.

Messier: 2, 3, 5, 5, 7, 10

Gretzky: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4

Lemieux: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8

Mikita: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4

Hull: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9

Richard: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,

Howe: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 9

Beliveau: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 8, 8, 9

Jagr: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9

Lafleur: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4

Lindsay: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 7, 9

Clarke: 2, 2, 5, 6, 8, 8, 10

Bossy: 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6,

Trottier: 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 10

Morenz: 1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 10

Yzerman: 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10

Sakic: 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8, 10

Esposito: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 7, 9

The vast majority of these players are far ahead of Messier offensively. I would say his results are comparable with only Trottier, Clarke and Yzerman. Interestingly, each of those players was better than Messier defensively over the course of their careers. Leadership and grittiness are well and good, but it isn't going to make up the gap for Messier in most cases, and plenty of those listed players were great leaders and gritty anyway. As most of the players listed above were also tremendous in the playoffs, there is little reason to rate Messier above many of them for that reason either.

Factor in defencemen including Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Shore, Lidstrom and Potvin, along with goaltenders like Hasek, Roy, Plante and Sawchuk, and the idea of putting Messier in the top 10 is honestly laughable. I can't see Messier legitimately being ranked any higher than 22, with only Sakic, Yzerman, Trottier, Bossy and Plante or Sawchuk being potentially behind Messier among those players I've mentioned.