Where do you rank Messier on an all-time list?

[JackSlater]

Even if you want to equate it to the playoffs, is it more impressive than Messier's actual Conn Smythe or his excellent playoff performances in 1990 or 1994?

I mean, I know what the Summit Series meant politically. But in terms of "raising one's game," does it add more to a player's "greatness" than a legendary playoff run would?

I personally wouldn't usually put much stock into performance at international events, but that's mainly because there are usually a bunch of games against weak nations which distort numbers and also because the teams rarely have time to gel. There is also the issue of players being punished for playing on deep teams. Those weren't really issues in the summit series though, so I would consider Esposito's performance, in what was an event bigger than the Stanley Cup finals, equal to many of the best Conn Smythe performances. It's certainly over Messier's Conn Smythe... which really belongs to Gretzky anyway.

 

[mm11]

How does the 2nd ranked scorer of all time end up getting ranked 20+ ????? The hate on for one of the all time greats here is laughable

man i agree, moose IMO is top 10-15

what a leader and player. never seen a better leader ever

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Cold War exhibition games had an intensity level I have rarely seen in even game 7 of Stanley Cup finals, and tournaments were a whole other level. Highly doubt I will ever see games like that again. It was like the Avs vs. The Wings in the late 90s - pure hatred, with the best players in the world - but times 10 with the political and worldview implications. It wasn't personal like the Avs and Wings were, but you got the feeling it was a mono y mono duel instead of a nuclear holocaust.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

man i agree, moose IMO is top 10-15

what a leader and player. never seen a better leader ever

Messier won a whole 2 Cups as a captain, and you are kidding yourself if you think he was the 'leader' of the Oilers over Gretzky. Does two Cup wins as a captain even put Messier in the top 10?

Anyone have a handy list?

 

[Cake or Death]

I'm kind of baffled at some notable double standards in this thread. Messier's regular season career scoring minimized because he had a long career? Yet you repeatedly see guys like Bourque praised for longevity. Messier's career numbers minimized because he played in the high scoring 80s and 90s. But this is never a knock against any other player (Gretzky, Bossy, Bourque, etc). Someone mentioning the press stole Messier a Hart from Bourque the same season the players voted Mess the Pearson. His leadership is called into question, yet he is the only professional athlete to have ever captained two different teams to championships. Really not sure what the deal is.

I understand Mess didn't have the individual single season scoring titles running rampant. But when you play most of your career with Gretzky and Lemieux in the league, the entire league is at best fighting for 2nd or 3rd in scoring. I also never saw Messier as a guy who cared about numbers. NEVER. The guy was always all about winning.

If things are to be taken away from Messier, give the guy credit where it's due. He had amazing longevity and, between playoffs and regular season, played a disgusting amount of games. He won a Cup after Gretz was gone, and then did something I never thought I'd see, helped the NYR end a 54 year Cup drought. He's 6 career goals from 700 and 7 career assists from 1200, and 2nd all time in points and games played. His playoff numbers are beastly: 2nd all time in points and top 5 in playoff ppg. Second all time in SHGs. 6 Cups. I'll respect anyone right to rank anyone anywhere they want. But some of the posts in here do feel a bit double-standardish to me for reasons stated. Some of his dirty play will always bother me, but the bottom line is, the guy's had a killer career and at the end of the day he got results.

 

[Cake or Death]

Messier won a whole 2 Cups as a captain, and you are kidding yourself if you think he was the 'leader' of the Oilers over Gretzky. Does two Cup wins as a captain even put Messier in the top 10?

No, it puts him in the unique position as the only pro athlete to ever captain two different teams to championships.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

No, it puts him in the unique position as the only pro athlete to ever captain two different teams to championships.

Which is trivial - as most of the great leaders spend the majority of their career with one team.

 

[SidGenoMario]

yeah guys i agree, mess is number 2 in scoring

mess > howe >>>> orr

 

[seventieslord]

I personally wouldn't usually put much stock into performance at international events, but that's mainly because there are usually a bunch of games against weak nations which distort numbers and also because the teams rarely have time to gel. There is also the issue of players being punished for playing on deep teams. Those weren't really issues in the summit series though, so I would consider Esposito's performance, in what was an event bigger than the Stanley Cup finals, equal to many of the best Conn Smythe performances. It's certainly over Messier's Conn Smythe... which really belongs to Gretzky anyway.

Don't be so sure. Here are some things said about Messier around that time:

Originally Posted by Grant Fuhr, 1984
That's part of the game. Mess runs over people. Sometimes, people don't get up. That's life. That's what happens when you stand on the train tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Z. Klein: Messier: The Unauthorized Biography
The Oilers were further buoyed by the sight of Messier leveling the normally unmoveable Islander captain. "Mark hit Denis Potvin on the goal line just to the right of their net," Coffey remembered. "and at that time when you hit Denis Potvin you just went down. We were all, 'Wow, yeah, yeah.' It really brought our emotion up. We said, 'Hey, we can play with these guys.' Because up to that point the Islanders were so superior."

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Glory Barons
It was Mark Messier, not Gretzky, who was awarded the Smythe trophy as playoff MVP. Gretzky produced the most assists and points, but in the trench warfare of the series against Calgary and especially the Islanders, it was Messier's physical play that carried the Oilers forward... the weakness of Gretzky's style was revealed in the heay traffic of an aggressive physical game. Unlike Messier, he could not fight his way through and still contribute to scoring... and when abused, he rather than retaliating the way Messier could, he had to turn his on-ice bodyguard or take dives... Messier's Conn Smythe was not a repudiation of Gretzky's skills, but an indication that the Oilers might be able to win without Gretzky, and that they could lose if Messier was not completely effective.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Francis' playoff numbers might have been a bit better if he spent his first 12 years in Edmonton.

Not saying he was as good as Messier, but those numbers are pretty misleading.

Francis did outscore Jagr in 4 of his first 5 seasons in Pittsburgh in the playoffs. And you know he was playing a much better all around game as well.

I agree here and once again asked TDMMwho responded to look at their offensive stats and the guys they played with ect.

I already posted earlier that Messier has a huge advantage over most players in his playoff performances and that he was always considered more of a star than Francis was but in reality Francis was every bit as good, and one could make the case better than messier on the offensive side of things and even if you side with Messier offensively the gap isn't that large.

 

[Hardyvan123]

man i agree, moose IMO is top 10-15

what a leader and player. never seen a better leader ever

Did you miss his 3 years in Vancouver?

someone else mentioned that maybe it wasn't the right situation or that he didn't have the skilled players around him to be as good a leader in Vancouver and frankly I think this is a cope out.

A good leader is a good leader period and Messier's reputation was inflated by playing on those great Edmonton teams with Wayne and company.

Don't get me wrong Messier is one of the all time greats in the 20-30 range for me but some people really over rate him IMO and can't separate the great opportunities he had, ie playing in Edmonton, and Gretzky for his 1st 9 NHL seasons.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Don't be so sure. Here are some things said about Messier around that time:

Originally Posted by Grant Fuhr, 1984
That's part of the game. Mess runs over people. Sometimes, people don't get up. That's life. That's what happens when you stand on the train tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Z. Klein: Messier: The Unauthorized Biography
The Oilers were further buoyed by the sight of Messier leveling the normally unmoveable Islander captain. "Mark hit Denis Potvin on the goal line just to the right of their net," Coffey remembered. "and at that time when you hit Denis Potvin you just went down. We were all, 'Wow, yeah, yeah.' It really brought our emotion up. We said, 'Hey, we can play with these guys.' Because up to that point the Islanders were so superior."

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Glory Barons
It was Mark Messier, not Gretzky, who was awarded the Smythe trophy as playoff MVP. Gretzky produced the most assists and points, but in the trench warfare of the series against Calgary and especially the Islanders, it was Messier's physical play that carried the Oilers forward... the weakness of Gretzky's style was revealed in the heay traffic of an aggressive physical game. Unlike Messier, he could not fight his way through and still contribute to scoring... and when abused, he rather than retaliating the way Messier could, he had to turn his on-ice bodyguard or take dives... Messier's Conn Smythe was not a repudiation of Gretzky's skills, but an indication that the Oilers might be able to win without Gretzky, and that they could lose if Messier was not completely effective.

Despite all that, Gretzky handily outproduced Messier in every single series.

 

[seventieslord]

Despite all that, Gretzky handily outproduced Messier in every single series.

I missed the part where outproduction automatically equals more valuable.

 

[sr edler]

No, it puts him in the unique position as the only pro athlete to ever captain two different teams to championships.

two different teams theoretically yes, but glenn anderson, esa tikkanen, adam graves, kevin lowe and craig mactavish were already with him on the 1990 edmonton oilers cup winning team

 

[jkrx]

I missed the part where outproduction automatically equals more valuable.

It's not automatically more valuable but you don't win games on physical play and penalty box visits alone. Someone needs to score those PP-goals and take advantage of the fear Messier put in the other team.

 

[nik jr]

two different teams theoretically yes, but glenn anderson, esa tikkanen, adam graves, kevin lowe and craig mactavish were already with him on the 1990 edmonton oilers cup winning team

and beukeboom

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm on a personal internet crusade to stop people from looking at goals and assists as separate entities.

Seriously though, all it does is make the less balanced player look better.

I watched the majority of the careers of these guys, and frankly, Messier was a true superstar, while Francis was considered a level below the true superstars for his long, excellent career.

I'm actually starting to warm up to the use of points-per-game stats (so long as you also look at overall points) because it was true that prime Messier played like a psychopath, causing him to miss about 10 games per year in the regular season, while always showing up for the playoffs.

I still give higher value to goals.

I'm sure that still influences my player rankings, though not as much as before being exposed to the History site.

 

[pluppe]

I'm kind of baffled at some notable double standards in this thread. Messier's regular season career scoring minimized because he had a long career? Yet you repeatedly see guys like Bourque praised for longevity.

Bourque was an all star his last season. Messier was largely irrelevant his last 7.

Messier's career numbers minimized because he played in the high scoring 80s and 90s. But this is never a knock against any other player (Gretzky, Bossy, Bourque, etc).

because they dominated against their peers. Messier performs pretty averagely in top-10 placements. (he was very very good but when compared against other all time greats it should be a knock. like someone said, Ron Francis is 4:th.)

Someone mentioning the press stole Messier a Hart from Bourque the same season the players voted Mess the Pearson.

the Pearson is extremely forward biased.

His leadership is called into question, yet he is the only professional athlete to have ever captained two different teams to championships. Really not sure what the deal is.

I´m sure this has happened in soccer for example. I can dig around for you if you want too.

I understand Mess didn't have the individual single season scoring titles running rampant. But when you play most of your career with Gretzky and Lemieux in the league, the entire league is at best fighting for 2nd or 3rd in scoring.

then he should have some more top-5s to compete with the absolute best.

I also never saw Messier as a guy who cared about numbers. NEVER. The guy was always all about winning.

Vancouver.

f things are to be taken away from Messier, give the guy credit where it's due. He had amazing longevity and, between playoffs and regular season, played a disgusting amount of games. He won a Cup after Gretz was gone, and then did something I never thought I'd see, helped the NYR end a 54 year Cup drought. He's 6 career goals from 700 and 7 career assists from 1200, and 2nd all time in points and games played. His playoff numbers are beastly: 2nd all time in points and top 5 in playoff ppg. Second all time in SHGs. 6 Cups. I'll respect anyone right to rank anyone anywhere they want. But some of the posts in here do feel a bit double-standardish to me for reasons stated. Some of his dirty play will always bother me, but the bottom line is, the guy's had a killer career and at the end of the day he got results.

I agree about this as he did have an amazing career. just think you overlook some of the knocks against him. thats understandable as you seem to be a Rangers fan. we are all biased. but I think there are reasons for reason.

for me he could be anywhere between 18 and 27 depending on how much you value playoffs.

 

[JackSlater]

Don't be so sure. Here are some things said about Messier around that time:

Originally Posted by Grant Fuhr, 1984
That's part of the game. Mess runs over people. Sometimes, people don't get up. That's life. That's what happens when you stand on the train tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Z. Klein: Messier: The Unauthorized Biography
The Oilers were further buoyed by the sight of Messier leveling the normally unmoveable Islander captain. "Mark hit Denis Potvin on the goal line just to the right of their net," Coffey remembered. "and at that time when you hit Denis Potvin you just went down. We were all, 'Wow, yeah, yeah.' It really brought our emotion up. We said, 'Hey, we can play with these guys.' Because up to that point the Islanders were so superior."

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Glory Barons
It was Mark Messier, not Gretzky, who was awarded the Smythe trophy as playoff MVP. Gretzky produced the most assists and points, but in the trench warfare of the series against Calgary and especially the Islanders, it was Messier's physical play that carried the Oilers forward... the weakness of Gretzky's style was revealed in the heay traffic of an aggressive physical game. Unlike Messier, he could not fight his way through and still contribute to scoring... and when abused, he rather than retaliating the way Messier could, he had to turn his on-ice bodyguard or take dives... Messier's Conn Smythe was not a repudiation of Gretzky's skills, but an indication that the Oilers might be able to win without Gretzky, and that they could lose if Messier was not completely effective.

I'm not doubting that Messier was crucial for the Oilers, I just strongly suspect Gretzky fatigue on the part of the voters. The numbers obviously go to Gretzky, but I also had the chance to watch the 1983 and 1984 finals a few months ago and nothing I saw in 84 made me think that Messier was more valuable to the Oilers in that series. Clearly Messier was important psychologically to the Oilers, but Gretzky's on ice impact was bigger by a fair margin. It seems to me that the voters were looking for any sort of intangible reason to give the award to someone other than Gretzky, since all tangible evidence pointed to him as being the most valuable.

 

[Big Phil]

On the side note of Messier's Conn Smythe in 1984 I too am a person who would have given the award to Gretzky. You can't overlook what he did and even in that playoff run Gretzky did what he always did, he outscored everyone else by such a margin that no other extra intangible could make up for it. In the clinching Game 5 vs. the Isles Gretzky scored twice in the first period and assisted on another in the 2nd period. For all intents and purposes, that game was over before it started. I can see why the voters were desperate for someone else to win something after all Gretzky won everything for 4-5 years up until then. I can see why Mess might be taken, but I'd have sided with Gretzky.

Look, top 10 voters SPEAK UP. Let's ignore stuff about comparing Mess to Francis. This is not a fair fight for Francis. Compare Mess to the big boys. One poster claimed he was top 5. 16% of you rate him top 10. Explain yourselves. He is competing directly with Hull, Richard, Beliveau, Morenz, etc. I want too see a case on why you think he rates with those guys.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I missed the part where outproduction automatically equals more valuable.

Are you implying that Mess was more valuable to the Oilers in nay sense at any time?

Put another way if the Oilers were to play without either of them during their 4 cup years which one would they miss more?

 

[Hardyvan123]

On the side note of Messier's Conn Smythe in 1984 I too am a person who would have given the award to Gretzky. You can't overlook what he did and even in that playoff run Gretzky did what he always did, he outscored everyone else by such a margin that no other extra intangible could make up for it. In the clinching Game 5 vs. the Isles Gretzky scored twice in the first period and assisted on another in the 2nd period. For all intents and purposes, that game was over before it started. I can see why the voters were desperate for someone else to win something after all Gretzky won everything for 4-5 years up until then. I can see why Mess might be taken, but I'd have sided with Gretzky.

Look, top 10 voters SPEAK UP. Let's ignore stuff about comparing Mess to Francis. This is not a fair fight for Francis. Compare Mess to the big boys. One poster claimed he was top 5. 16% of you rate him top 10. Explain yourselves. He is competing directly with Hull, Richard, Beliveau, Morenz, etc. I want too see a case on why you think he rates with those guys.

I don't have him in the top 10. more 20-30 but I'll bet the top 10 guys are countign stat guys and don't put things into context IMO.

 

[Cake or Death]

I agree about this as he did have an amazing career. just think you overlook some of the knocks against him. thats understandable as you seem to be a Rangers fan. we are all biased. but I think there are reasons for reason.

for me he could be anywhere between 18 and 27 depending on how much you value playoffs.

It isn't about overlooking knocks or bias, I am simply seeing some double standards that stood out to me and acknowledging them. I've never really sat down and tried to make an all-time list, because I would get way too involved in the process and it doesn't seem to be a very good use of time. But my own personal valuation of Messier all-time, just off the top of my head, would probably place him in the 20-35 range. I don't need to knock Messier to do that, I simply feel I can think of at least 20-25 who, IMO, I'd place ahead of him. If some Messier fanboy comes in here and says he is top 10, I am again not gonna knock Messier, because I am simply not going to waste my time entertaining a response to something that, in my personal opinion, is ridiculous and doesn't justify a response.

I am probably one of the most objective and least biased people you'll ever meet. Someone who never took his fandom too seriously unless it was the team he was playing on, and a Ranger fan who had no problem driving to Long Island or Hartford to see the Islanders and Whalers play. If a Ranger fan in the 80s was fanatical to the extent that they couldn't go and watch Trottier, Bossy, Potvin and Co, they missed an amazing thing. I feel blessed that I got to go see that Islanders team live so many times ... truly amazing hockey. If a NYR fan has a problem with this, I will direct them to the autographed paintings of Gretzky, Howe, and Trottier hanging in my bedroom and will readily thank them for their two cents, but remind them I can't even buy a piece of gum with it.

 

[pluppe]

It isn't about overlooking knocks or bias, I am simply seeing some double standards that stood out to me and acknowledging them. I've never really sat down and tried to make an all-time list, because I would get way too involved in the process and it doesn't seem to be a very good use of time. But my own personal valuation of Messier all-time, just off the top of my head, would probably place him in the 20-35 range. I don't need to knock Messier to do that, I simply feel I can think of at least 20-25 who, IMO, I'd place ahead of him. If some Messier fanboy comes in here and says he is top 10, I am again not gonna knock Messier, because I am simply not going to waste my time entertaining a response to something that, in my personal opinion, is ridiculous and doesn't justify a response.

I am probably one of the most objective and least biased people you'll ever meet. Someone who never took his fandom too seriously unless it was the team he was playing on, and a Ranger fan who had no problem driving to Long Island or Hartford to see the Islanders and Whalers play. If a Ranger fan in the 80s was fanatical to the extent that they couldn't go and watch Trottier, Bossy, Potvin and Co, they missed an amazing thing. I feel blessed that I got to go see that Islanders team live so many times ... truly amazing hockey. If a NYR fan has a problem with this, I will direct them to the autographed paintings of Gretzky, Howe, and Trottier hanging in my bedroom and will readily thank them for their two cents, but remind them I can't even buy a piece of gum with it.

thanks for clearing that up. my critiques against your statements still stands though. if you post on a topic where he is compared against the greats critisism must be allowed. sure you can say that you don´t like the idea of this but then perhaps you shouldn´t post. at least in a thread where Messier is more overrated than underrated.

but mostly I think we agree. great great player.

 

[Cake or Death]

thanks for clearing that up. my critiques against your statements still stands though. if you post on a topic where he is compared against the greats critisism must be allowed. sure you can say that you don´t like the idea of this but then perhaps you shouldn´t post. at least in a thread where Messier is more overrated than underrated.

but mostly I think we agree. great great player.

In the final analysis, we seem to be ranking him about the same. I am not a person who focuses as much on stats as others: I tend to look at impact and results, as well. I think Bryan Trottier is a good example of what I mean. Four Cups with the NYI. But I elevated my overall view of Trottier in his seasons with Pitt. The year before Trottier hit Pitt, they didn't make the playoffs. Is it coincidence that the season he arrives they make the playoffs and win the Cup? I am obviously not suggesting Trottier was the sole or major cause for Pitt's success. But winning sure does seem to follow Trottier around. And for me, I think there's something to be said for that. An Art Ross is nice, but if you ask Ovechkin I think he'd rather hoist the Cup, because isn't that the whole point? And when I look at guys like Mess and Trots, winning did seem to oddly follow them around. I mean after Gretzky left, who really thought Edmonton would win another Cup? I thought the power in the Campbell shifted dead to Calgary. And who thought the Rangers would win a Cup ever? lol

I reckon you're right though, if we're arriving at about the same destination on Messier, maybe there isn't much point in me debating about how we got there. Point taken.