When did Datsyuk get demoted to the 4th line?

[Henkka]

At least Cleary has scored 5+2=7 so far. I really can't remember where and when did he score those 5 goals, but he really has five goals (!).

Abdelkader still doesn't have one. He is the bigger problem on that line, Akader fits only to defensive lines.

Cleary can be with Pavel until Bert will comes back, but they should found another skilled winger for Dats.

I would be ok with these when Sammy comes back:

Mule - Zeta - Sammy
Cleary - Dats - Brunner

Not anything near perfect, but some sense.

 

[ricky0034]

we have like the deepest team ever

4 regulars out at forward and Tatar barely plays and there isn't even any room for Nyquist at all

I think the only question left to ask at this point is whether the SCF will take the Wings 4 games to win or if it'll take 5

 

[we like our team*]

i think the other team will forfeit to save themselves from embarrassment

 

[we like our team*]

playing datsyuk with cleary and abdelkader

 

[Brick Top]

Who brought up Stamkos/Melrose?
What the hell is OWN?

Nice try, Bob-O, on playing clueless (something you do quite well Shots fired, baby!!), but I'm pretty sure your DVR is maxed out on OWN programs and specials. I know mine is.

 

[Brick Top]

Pretty big assumption that what Tatar brings to the first line will outweigh what he gives us on the third line. Yeah, playing with Dats, but also against Hossa, Toews, Kane, etc. every night. Datsyuk is still going to have to carry that line whether it's Cleary-Gator next to him, or Tatar-Cleary/Gator.

Meanwhile, we take the only real weapon we have out of the bottom6, allowing teams to load up even more against our top 6.

Seems obvious that a minimum, he'd bring a scoring touch that is decidedly lacking in the current Abby/Cleary duo. Pavel would still be the best player on the line with or without Tatar, but then again we don't have a wing player in the same talent area code as Datsyuk, so I don't think that matters.

I'm not sure the opposition is really having to load up against either of our top 6 lines right now. Z's line can disappear for long stretches of each game, and Datsyuk's line is a line only b/c it's a 3 forward unit, but every other team knows what we know- just focus on 13 and trust that even if Pavel creates a chance for his wings, it's a moral victory for the line if Abby or Cleary avoid turning the puck over right away, let alone manage to get a shot off. And at this point, Datsyuk is choosing to flip passes to himself instead of involving his linemates, so the threat level is almost non-existent.

Tatar would make Pavel's line more dangerous and since that line gets plenty more IT than the 3rd, it's worth it IMO to make that trade off. Or, and this will blow everyone's mind... call up Gus to play with Datsyuk, which would let Tatar play on the 3rd line still and have at least one scoring winger on the top 3 lines.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

With injuries I don't mind Cleary playing with Pavel as long as the other winger can produce. I've been on Cleary nonstop all year, but he hasn't been THAT bad the past few games, just below-average. He at least knows where to be and when (who knows if he can actually get there though) unlike Abby who has no offensive awareness at all.

 

[Winger98]

Seems obvious that a minimum, he'd bring a scoring touch that is decidedly lacking in the current Abby/Cleary duo. Pavel would still be the best player on the line with or without Tatar, but then again we don't have a wing player in the same talent area code as Datsyuk, so I don't think that matters.

I'm not sure the opposition is really having to load up against either of our top 6 lines right now. Z's line can disappear for long stretches of each game, and Datsyuk's line is a line only b/c it's a 3 forward unit, but every other team knows what we know- just focus on 13 and trust that even if Pavel creates a chance for his wings, it's a moral victory for the line if Abby or Cleary avoid turning the puck over right away, let alone manage to get a shot off. And at this point, Datsyuk is choosing to flip passes to himself instead of involving his linemates, so the threat level is almost non-existent.

Tatar would make Pavel's line more dangerous and since that line gets plenty more IT than the 3rd, it's worth it IMO to make that trade off. Or, and this will blow everyone's mind... call up Gus to play with Datsyuk, which would let Tatar play on the 3rd line still and have at least one scoring winger on the top 3 lines.

Tatar would bring more skill, but I'm not sold that translates into more effectiveness. Same with Nyquist. A big part of it is that they're rookies, and rookies just don't typically produce much. Datsyuk, Franzen, Flip, and Hudler all put up around 10-14 goals in their rookie seasons (Z, as always it seems, was the big outlier at 22 - and he was a Calder finalist). I think expectations for the kid are just out of line with what he'd actually bring to Datsyuk's line. Put the lack of depth with the lack of experience with the insanely hard match-ups, and it's a recipe for mediocrity.

And this isn't to say I like the Abs-Dats-Cleary thing. It's ugly to watch, but it effectively nullifies the other team's top line and Datsyuk makes it dangerous. Meanwhile, Tatar makes our third line dangerous. I think the bit about Z's line disappearing, as well as our horrible PP, is what's really killing. It's obviously our most skilled line, but they're not consistently producing.

If Tatar gets bumped up to Dats' line, I won't complain, and I'll hope for the best. At the same time, I expect what we see from it now - some flashes of dangerousness (and maybe a goal, if we're a bit lucky), but a lot of Datsyuk carrying things and that line not screwing up. But I think our "third" line would be noticeably worse.

I just wish this team would get healthy and we can start seeing some better hockey.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Tatar would bring more skill, but I'm not sold that translates into more effectiveness. Same with Nyquist. A big part of it is that they're rookies, and rookies just don't typically produce much. Datsyuk, Franzen, Flip, and Hudler all put up around 10-14 goals in their rookie seasons (Z, as always it seems, was the big outlier at 22 - and he was a Calder finalist). I think expectations for the kid are just out of line with what he'd actually bring to Datsyuk's line. Put the lack of depth with the lack of experience with the insanely hard match-ups, and it's a recipe for mediocrity.

And this isn't to say I like the Abs-Dats-Cleary thing. It's ugly to watch, but it effectively nullifies the other team's top line and Datsyuk makes it dangerous. Meanwhile, Tatar makes our third line dangerous. I think the bit about Z's line disappearing, as well as our horrible PP, is what's really killing. It's obviously our most skilled line, but they're not consistently producing.

If Tatar gets bumped up to Dats' line, I won't complain, and I'll hope for the best. At the same time, I expect what we see from it now - some flashes of dangerousness (and maybe a goal, if we're a bit lucky), but a lot of Datsyuk carrying things and that line not screwing up. But I think our "third" line would be noticeably worse.

I just wish this team would get healthy and we can start seeing some better hockey.

So the obvious solution would be to call up Nyquist to play alongside Datsyuk, wouldn't it?

That way you can add a skilled forward for Datsyuk's line and demote Gator to the 4th line, all while not sacrificing your third-line.

 

[ScottyBowman]

It's not often you can say one of the worst lines in hockey is the one with Datsyuk on it.

Hats off to Babcock for doing the impossible.

I'm just trying to figure out what Abdelkader adds to the Red Wings. He can't fight, he can't score, he can't pass, he sucks along the boards... If you break down his stats, he averages 6 goals per 82 game season and does not bring the intangibles of a Kris Draper or Maltby. We are better off bringing back Stacey Roest.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

I'm just trying to figure out what Abdelkader adds to the Red Wings. He can't fight, he can't score, he can't pass, he sucks along the boards... If you break down his stats, he averages 6 goals per 82 game season and does not bring the intangibles of a Kris Draper or Maltby. We are better off bringing back Stacey Roest.

I think he's fine playing wing on the 4th line. He works hard out there, brings some energy, and is a pretty good forechecker. He's not anything special but that's your typical fourth liner. Gator is kind of a poor man's Tootoo if you think about it.

 

[Winger98]

So the obvious solution would be to call up Nyquist to play alongside Datsyuk, wouldn't it?

That way you can add a skilled forward for Datsyuk's line and demote Gator to the 4th line, all while not sacrificing your third-line.

not really when he'd still be an inexperienced rookie over his head, stuck in match-ups he won't be able to consistently handle. If the expectation was for Tatar or Nyquist to shoulder any sort of significant weight this season, they should have been up last season.

Something else that would help would be having a third line that could handle more of the defensive burden that is being put on Datsyuk. Until then, if you're calling up Nyquist, I think you'd have better luck if you put him with Tatar on the third line. At least then they'd probably be a consistent threat while Dats continued to be the shut down line.

 

[BinCookin]

Ok we all notice Abby being useless offensively with Datsyuk.

Is it possible he backchecks well and positions himself better than we would expect Nyq or Tatar too??

Babcock may be using Datsyuks line as a shut down role?
(As winger98 suggests?)

Is it possible he thinks if he makes a Tatar-Datsyuk-Nyquist line that they would score more BUT also give up more?? Thus the team would lose more games?

Lets think outside the box here.

Maybe Z's line is providing offence
D's line is the shut down line vs other teams top line
Tatar's line gets put out vs other teams 3/4th lines when Babcock gets the right chance. Allowing Tatar/Anderson to look good out there.
Its possible they are doing so well because they are never up against the other teams "good checking" line. Is is possible Babcock gives Tatar less time because he is trying to optimize the "sneaky" scoring threat in his line up (the 3rd line). Maybe the 4 th line gets more icetime because they go out and face other team's 3rd lines. And he uses tatar's line to embarass other teams 4th lines???
Maybe Anderson and Tatar are the secret weapon, and Babcock doesnt want to say it, but they are "MORE EFFECTIVE" with less time, select time ? Its either that or he is an idiot? I would have to imagine my answer is "closer" to being right, or he just wants to play the rookies less because they are rookies, and will eventually lose the game no matter how good they have looked up till now

Tatar although maybe not a minus player must be making defensive mistakes. Maybe others are covering for him. Some one here really needs to watch the games more closely and check because quite frankly I just am not that good at hockey to analyze it.

 

[we like our team*]

abdelkader isn't any better defensively than our other forwards so i don't see the "shutdown line" logic

 

[BinCookin]

abdelkader isn't any better defensively than our other forwards so i don't see the "shutdown line" logic

You sure about that?

 

[we like our team*]

who's he clearly better than? brunner? that's about it.

 

[BinCookin]

who's he clearly better than? brunner? that's about it.

I am saying it simply to make you think.

Do you really analyze our players defensively besides the obviously flawed statistics of +/-.

Abby must be up there for some reason.
Maybe he positions himself well, maybe Babcock knows what he is going to get from Abby.
Maybe he is better defensively.

I don't have an answer for this... I always cheer for us to score.
I do not pay much attention to what lines are on the ice for us or the opponent.
I do not pay attention to match ups or the other teams style.
Either way I am just trying to make people think.

If I am way off someone should be able to tell me here. Like:

"Dats line is not being used as a shut down line... since "this" is their competition"

 

[we like our team*]

cool

 

[Sentinel]

As a "shutdown" forward, he surely did great a giving the puck away that lead to a critical goal against us the other day. Gator is a total waste.

 

[VM1138]

Keeping Tatar off a Datsyuk's line because he makes the third line dangerous makes sense, but to not even try him on Datsyuk's wing?

Let's accept that logic for a moment. Why not replace Abdelkader with Tootoo? Tootoo can score and handle himself well in difficult situations. I think we've all come around on Cleary for the moment, but there's no reason to keep trying Abdelkader up there.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

we have like the deepest team ever

4 regulars out at forward and Tatar barely plays and there isn't even any room for Nyquist at all

I think the only question left to ask at this point is whether the SCF will take the Wings 4 games to win or if it'll take 5

This is the astonishing "overripe" BS of the Red Wings.

This is why Mursak never got a chance. You can injuries. But Mursak scored 24 goals in his second year of AHL year hockey. In most organizations, with his speed and work ethic, he gets shot. Not Detroit.

With Nyquist, should have left college a year earlier. Should have come to GR a year earlier. Should already have a year in the NHL under his belt. And if he Tatar already their year under their belt, maybe they wouldn't have bothered signing Sammy or brining back bertuzzi.

What's good about that? Make it easier to Ferraro/Sheahan a shot next year.

 

[Vladdy84]

Make it easier to Ferraro/Sheahan a shot next year.

Watch Jarnkrok, Ferraro and Sheahan get no shot next year.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Ok we all notice Abby being useless offensively with Datsyuk.

Is it possible he backchecks well and positions himself better than we would expect Nyq or Tatar too??

Since when did Datsyuk need a shutdown Winger. This is a guy who might be the best plus minus among NHL forwards since the lockout- with linemates like Holmstrom.

Babcock may be using Datsyuks line as a shut down role?
(As winger98 suggests?)

Datsyuk shuts down other teams when he's on the attack...not when he's chasing guys around his own end.

Have people thrown out 11-years of history to make excuses for Coach Dumbass?

Is it possible he thinks if he makes a Tatar-Datsyuk-Nyquist line that they would score more BUT also give up more?? Thus the team would lose more games?

Nope. The best part of Datsyuk's defense is his offense.

Lets think outside the box here.

Maybe Z's line is providing offence

It's not.

D's line is the shut down line vs other teams top line

Already told you why this is wrong.

Tatar's line gets put out vs other teams 3/4th lines when Babcock gets the right chance. Allowing Tatar/Anderson to look good out there.

So you think it's better to sacrifice 15 minutes a night of Datsyuk's line in exchange for a better matchup for your fourth line?
L.O. ****ING.L.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Watch Jarnkrok, Ferraro and Sheahan get no shot next year.

They won't.
And if you ask me, there's probably not going to be room for Tatar/Nyquist AND Andersson.

And since Joakim has no waivers left, there's a possibility that either Tatar or Nyquist starts next season in GR.

We've got room for 14 forwards at the most
1. Datsyuk
2. Zetterberg
3. Flip or UFA
4. Franzen
5. Brunner
6. Abdelkader
7. Bertuzzi
8. Helm
9. Sammy
10. Tootoo
11. Eaves
12. Emmerton
------------------
We're at 12 already-Two spots left for Tatar, Andersson, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, and Ferraro.

If Flip leaves and we don't replace him... then yeah, we have room for all three.

That's assuming, of course, that Holland let's both Cleary and Miller walk.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

As a "shutdown" forward, he surely did great a giving the puck away that lead to a critical goal against us the other day. Gator is a total waste.

Yep.
And Dan Cleary, looking like a silly old man in overtime the other night when Hossa skated up behind him and stole the puck in the Detroit end...

How does a coach see that and still trust the guy?

MINDBOGGLING