When did Crosby stop being the best player in the world?

[Regal]

Fair enough but would argue that Crosby in 16/17 was a return to form after two seasons (one really) that were outliers. He was clearly affected in 14/15 by illness after looking like he was going win another easy Art Ross.

By your thinking, would still argue that 17/18 makes more sense if we limit the discussion strictly to regular season offensive production but even then, how much do we penalize Crosby for having a two Cup hangover.

I agree there were good reasons to believe that Crosby's previous 2 were outliers (the success after Sullivan was hired being a big one as well), and believing that his more polished game and experience made him the player you would want in the playoffs. But I think it was also fair to wonder if the other two season were signs that he couldn't be expected to stay at that top level all the time, and so McDavid would be the better bet over a full season. Often part of aging isn't so much a decrease in that top level but in being able to bring that every night, and declines aren't usually a steady slope but some some spikes on the way down, which we've actually seen with a weaker '18 followed by another strong '19. I think people were pretty split on who was going to be better coming into the '18 season, which was fair, and McDavid established himself during it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It basically boils down to...you haven't done it until you've done it. All we have to go on right now is one poor playoff run for McD relative to his skillset. Conversely, we have years and years of playoff excellence from Crosby, even though he's thrown up a dud round or two.

When judging Marcel Dionne's playoff legacy, one can easily argue that he was on a bad team and had a small sample size to go by. But the fact is that it's all we have to go on, and its underwhelming, so he's rarely placed in the same tier as comparable players who proved their playoff worth.

It’s true your right. But it will only be fair to judge him in the post season when he has more experience there. Only time will tell.

Mcdavid had 0.3 ppg lead over Crosby. I’ll post again

Crosby 116 points in 99 games
Mcdavid 109 points in 95 games

Why are you bulking games together? It’s unnecessary. Just go off of the season where Crosby had 11 less points and lost the Hart and Lindsay to McDavid, no need to move the goal posts.

2016-19 it says it on the image

2016-18 Crosby was good defensively but still overrated for many reasons. 2019 was obviously his exceptional year, same goes for McDavid....only on the opposite spectrum with this year.

Crosby is really the only player I’ve seen get the status as one of the best defensive stars in the league while barely playing the PK or being used more For a shut down role, which he isn’t used to for.

His 21 point in 12 game po looks good though. 1.75 ppg.

Guentzels looks good too...all with one more goal, he must be better than Crosby and McDavid.

 

[daver]

I agree there were good reasons to believe that Crosby's previous 2 were outliers (the success after Sullivan was hired being a big one as well), and believing that his more polished game and experience made him the player you would want in the playoffs. But I think it was also fair to wonder if the other two season were signs that he couldn't be expected to stay at that top level all the time, and so McDavid would be the better bet over a full season. Often part of aging isn't so much a decrease in that top level but in being able to bring that every night, and declines aren't usually a steady slope but some some spikes on the way down, which we've actually seen with a weaker '18 followed by another strong '19. I think people were pretty split on who was going to be better coming into the '18 season, which was fair, and McDavid established himself during it.

There certainly is room for speculation but as much as you can speculate in McDavid's favour you can also do it Crosby's favour.

Who knows how McDavid's 16/17 and 17/18 seasons play out if he played in two consecutive Cup finals like Crosby. Crosby's 08/09 and 09/10 seasons can be argued as being below his potential level of play because he learned quickly that positioning your team for deep playoff run is the ultimate goal. In 09/10 especially one could argue he sleepwalked thru the first half of the season (1.20 PPG) before turning it up in 2nd half (1.49). Not surprising that it took awhile to get going after two Cup runs. It was the same thing in 17/18, he had a 0.88 PPG in the first half, then a 1.29 PPG in the 2nd half and then dominated the playoffs.

If you want to point to last season as being on equal terms, that seems reasonable. But as many seem to feel, Crosby can still turn it up if needed. I would view OV in the same light.

Here is what don't have to speculate on. Crosby, at his peak, reached a higher offensive level than McDavid has. Thru their first five years, they have showed a similar regular season production when compared to their peers but as shown above, Crosby had two long Cup runs thrown in there which needs to be accounted for.

So how much can we speculate that he has regressed from his peak?

 

[Voight]

Crosby stans bringing up his Richard win from 2017, but when it comes to Ovechkin goal scoring doesn't matter and neither do all of his Richard's

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby stans bringing up his Richard win from 2017, but when it comes to Ovechkin goal scoring doesn't matter and neither do all of his Richard's

Because a lot of his Richards he was out of the top 10

 

[ck26]

You could make McDavid an average skater and he'd still be a top 15 player in the league.

Dylan Strome is not a top 15 player in the league.

2015 is my answer. Kane had an incredible Art Ross & Hart winning season the next year, where he won by a margin similar to Crosby in 2014.

(but lets not act like from 2005-2015 he was the best player every single year)

"Best player" isn't that fluid a title.

Yzerman, Messier and Hull won Harts/Pearsons in the late 80's / early 90's, because they (arguably) had better seasons, but none temporarily dethroned Gretzky/Lemieux as the best player in the world.
Daniel, Henrik and Corey Perry won them too ... they had a better season, but they weren't better than Crosby.

Since Jagr and Lidstrom declined and Crosby ascended in the mid-00's, Crosby has been best. If you want to argue Ovechkin or Malkin were better from 07-15 or so, fine, but it's a title that changes hands once or twice a decade, not every year.

 

[Voight]

Dylan Strome is not a top 15 player in the league.
"Best player" isn't that fluid a title.

Yzerman, Messier and Hull won Harts/Pearsons in the late 80's / early 90's, because they (arguably) had better seasons, but none temporarily dethroned Gretzky/Lemieux as the best player in the world.
Daniel, Henrik and Corey Perry won them too ... they had a better season, but they weren't better than Crosby.

Since Jagr and Lidstrom declined and Crosby ascended in the mid-00's, Crosby has been best. If you want to argue Ovechkin or Malkin were better from 07-15 or so, fine, but it's a title that changes hands once or twice a decade, not every year.

You simply cannot say Crosby was unilaterally the best player from say 2005-2015 for example. When in fact Ovechkin was the better player many of those seasons.

 

[Midnight Judges]

This whole discussion is laden with history revision. Ovie was better than Crosby for 4 of their first 5 seasons, and they've practically alternated since then.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

This whole discussion is laden with history revision. Ovie was better than Crosby for 4 of their first 5 seasons, and they've practically alternated since then.

Ovechkin hasn't been relevant in the best player in the world discussion since 2010.

 

[Voight]

Ovechkin hasn't been relevant in the best player in the world discussion since 2010.

Weird, in 2015 he lead the league in goals, 4th in points & was 2nd in Hart voting.

 

[blundluntman]

Arguably during the 16-17 season but he did win a Smythe and Rocket that year so it's hard to say. He wasn't the best player in the world by the start of the 17-18 season either though.

I guess during the 16-17 offseason lol

 

[GreatGonzo]

Because a lot of his Richards he was out of the top 10

He finished 18th in assists that year. The only reason he was in the top 10 was because of goals, so yes your going against your own argument that you always use against Ovechkin.

Dylan Strome is not a top 15 player in the league.
"Best player" isn't that fluid a title.

Yzerman, Messier and Hull won Harts/Pearsons in the late 80's / early 90's, because they (arguably) had better seasons, but none temporarily dethroned Gretzky/Lemieux as the best player in the world.
Daniel, Henrik and Corey Perry won them too ... they had a better season, but they weren't better than Crosby.

Since Jagr and Lidstrom declined and Crosby ascended in the mid-00's, Crosby has been best. If you want to argue Ovechkin or Malkin were better from 07-15 or so, fine, but it's a title that changes hands once or twice a decade, not every year.

Ovechkin has always had a better argument for being the best player in the league from ‘06-‘10. Crosby then separated himself, but ultimately injuries costed him the undisputed title, while Malkin then had a career year in between, but of course lacked the consistency. Crosby from 2013 and on then was consistency a top player with 2014 being another top year.

Ovechkin hasn't been relevant in the best player in the world discussion since 2010.

He won a Hart in 2013, was a finalist in 2015, was a Lindsay finalists twice, and won the smythe in 2018. Considering how the smythe is being used as a measurement of who is the best for Crosby, seems to me that your deliberately ignoring basic facts.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The only difference between Crosby's 2014 season and his 4 consecutive 30-ish goal / 80 something point seasons after that was an anomalous spike in arbitrary secondary assists. For the better part of this decade ('14 through '19), Crosby was a Jamie Benn caliber player but with less physicality and way less defensive responsibility, which isn't an insult.

 

[Rygu]

McDavid might be a notch above Crosby offensively but if I'm coaching a team at the start of the playoff I'll take Crosby.

 

[Trap Jesus]

McDavid might be a notch above Crosby offensively but if I'm coaching a team at the start of the playoff I'll take Crosby.

How big is this notch we're talking about?

1. McDavid 2019/20: 1.55 (49 games)
2. McDavid 2018/19: 1.49 (78 games)
3. McDavid 2017/18: 1.32 (82 games)
4. Crosby 2018/19: 1.27 (79 games)
5. McDavid 2016/17: 1.22 (82 games)
6. Crosby 2019/20: 1.19 (21 games)
7. Crosby 2016/17: 1.19 (75 games)
8. Crosby 2017/18: 1.09 (82 games)
9. McDavid 2015/16: 1.07 (45 games)
10. Crosby 2015/16: 1.06 (80 games)

They're on completely different wavelengths, especially when you consider how McDavid has escalated each year.

 

[Midnight Judges]

How big is this notch we're talking about?

1. McDavid 2019/20: 1.55 (49 games)
2. McDavid 2018/19: 1.49 (78 games)
3. McDavid 2017/18: 1.32 (82 games)
4. Crosby 2018/19: 1.27 (79 games)
5. McDavid 2016/17: 1.22 (82 games)
6. Crosby 2019/20: 1.19 (21 games)
7. Crosby 2016/17: 1.19 (75 games)
8. Crosby 2017/18: 1.09 (82 games)
9. McDavid 2015/16: 1.07 (45 games)
10. Crosby 2015/16: 1.06 (80 games)

They're on completely different wavelengths, especially when you consider how McDavid has escalated each year.

Yeah but Crosby was "carrying" the team that had a lowly, uh, .710 winning percentage without him.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Yeah but Crosby was "carrying" the team that had a lowly, uh, .710 winning percentage without him.

He's also so defensively conscious that he just parks himself in front of his own net the whole game. Amazing numbers all things considered.

 

[IcedCapp]

These Crosby threads are so amazing to lurk. The same 4-5 Ovechkin fans circle jerking themselves for 80% of the posts, congratulating each other on their ability to hit "post reply" without any major malfunctions. Keep up the good work.

 

[Rygu]

How big is this notch we're talking about?

1. McDavid 2019/20: 1.55 (49 games)
2. McDavid 2018/19: 1.49 (78 games)
3. McDavid 2017/18: 1.32 (82 games)
4. Crosby 2018/19: 1.27 (79 games)
5. McDavid 2016/17: 1.22 (82 games)
6. Crosby 2019/20: 1.19 (21 games)
7. Crosby 2016/17: 1.19 (75 games)
8. Crosby 2017/18: 1.09 (82 games)
9. McDavid 2015/16: 1.07 (45 games)
10. Crosby 2015/16: 1.06 (80 games)

They're on completely different wavelengths, especially when you consider how McDavid has escalated each year.

Crosby in the playoffs:

164GP 184 points

McDavid in the playoffs:

13GP 9 points

Yeah the notch isn't big.

 

[daver]

How big is this notch we're talking about?

1. McDavid 2019/20: 1.55 (49 games)
2. McDavid 2018/19: 1.49 (78 games)
3. McDavid 2017/18: 1.32 (82 games)
4. Crosby 2018/19: 1.27 (79 games)
5. McDavid 2016/17: 1.22 (82 games)
6. Crosby 2019/20: 1.19 (21 games)
7. Crosby 2016/17: 1.19 (75 games)
8. Crosby 2017/18: 1.09 (82 games)
9. McDavid 2015/16: 1.07 (45 games)
10. Crosby 2015/16: 1.06 (80 games)

They're on completely different wavelengths, especially when you consider how McDavid has escalated each year.

No he hasn't. Unless you think the vast majority of the league have escalated too. He is on pace to have about the same level of season as the last three seasons.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby in the playoffs:

164GP 184 points

McDavid in the playoffs:

13GP 9 points

Yeah the notch isn't big.

Because games played and team context don’t have to apply I suppose. That’s why this argument is idiotic.

No he hasn't. Unless you think the vast majority of the league have escalated too. He is on pace to have about the same level of season as the last three seasons.

He’s increased his play every season. You can’t go around it or manipulate it to your liking.

These Crosby threads are so amazing to lurk. The same 4-5 Ovechkin fans circle jerking themselves for 80% of the posts, congratulating each other on their ability to hit "post reply" without any major malfunctions. Keep up the good work.

I irony.....

 

[Trap Jesus]

No he hasn't. Unless you think the vast majority of the league have escalated too. He is on pace to have about the same level of season as the last three seasons.

You can do any breakdown you want, McDavid owns Crosby offensively since he's come into the league.

 

[GreatGonzo]

He's also so defensively conscious that he just parks himself in front of his own net the whole game. Amazing numbers all things considered.

He’s also so defensively elite that he doesn’t have to play the PK or be used as a shut down center.

 

[daver]

You can do any breakdown you want, McDavid owns Crosby offensively since he's come into the league.

I am saying you're argument that McDavid is escalating is wrong unless you say the same about Crosby whose point totals have increased too.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

The only difference between Crosby's 2014 season and his 4 consecutive 30-ish goal / 80 something point seasons after that was an anomalous spike in arbitrary secondary assists. For the better part of this decade ('14 through '19), Crosby was a Jamie Benn caliber player but with less physicality and way less defensive responsibility, which isn't an insult.

Crosby is #1 in points in that span...