When did Crosby stop being the best player in the world?

[GreatGonzo]

I mean its a big difference defensively when Crosby has been in a range from above average defensively to very good on defense especially compared to McDavid who has been bottom 20 in xGA/60 in both 17/18 and 18/19.

Crosby is also on an overall better team with better defensive pairings and isn’t carrying the offensive load like McDavid has been. That kind of context can’t just be ignored, the Oilers have been on the other end of the spectrum in goals against while having one the weakest Power plays. McDavid has been carrying around a dumpster fire of a team, where as the Pens are a playoff team without Crosby. The Pens have been one of the better teams in Goals against and shots against this year, all a majority without Crosby. Crosby’s skill sets add to their already talented team, but he’s had more help than McDavid over the years and that should be taken into consideration.

I’m not saying Crosby shouldn’t get credit, but it shouldn’t be the deciding factor between the two in terms of who is and isn’t better. Crosby’s defense has never Stood out so much that it deserves more recognition than McDavids offense. He can’t score all the points, drive the play, and stop the other team from scoring. His own line mates are liabilities defensively as well. There is a lot more at play than just comparing their individual efforts.

 

[daver]

How about you just give me the exact parameter you want and I'll prove you wrong on your terms.

McDavid's PPG vs. the average PPG of the other Top Ten scorers

2016/17: McDavid's PPG - 1.22, Avg. of other Top Ten - 1.04

McDavid's PPG was 17% better


2017/18: McDavid's PPG - 1.32, Avg. of other Top Ten - 1.19

McDavid's PPG was 11% better


2018/19: McDavid's PPG - 1.49, Avg. of other Top Ten - 1.28

McDavid's PPG was 16% better


2019/20: McDavid's PPG - 1.55, Avg. of other Top Ten - 1.35

McDavid's PPG is 15% better


Conclusion: His production has not been getting any better relative the league's other elite scorers as his career has progressed so far.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I mean its a big difference defensively when Crosby has been in a range from above average defensively to very good on defense...

Yeah but he hasn't. Over the past decade Crosby has been on the ice for a higher goals against / 60 at even strength than Alexander Ovechkin.

 

[ck26]

The answer is as soon as McDavid played his 1st game.

Jagr was still the best in the world in 2002.

 

[authentic]

In 2014 Crosby had 9 points in 14 games and was a -4, finishing 4th in scoring on his own team and flopping in the 2nd round. Why wasn’t his status as “best player” that year argued?

Who was close to him in the regular season that year? Malkin was the only one you could argue was very close, and it's always that way anyway other than his off seasons (and sometimes obviously he's better like this season so far).

 

[authentic]

Jagr was still the best in the world in 2002.

Peter Forsberg*

 

[authentic]

I can understand that argument in some ways, only that I feel that’s when certain people like to put the smythe above the other awards because it suits their agenda. I’m not belittling his smythe, only pointing out that McDavid not having a good post season shouldn’t be held against him. Much like how I didn’t see anyone saying Getzlaf was better than Crosby in 2014 due to him being better in the playoffs. I know it wasn’t the smythe or cup win, only that it’s the same concept.

Crosby also finished second in points and third in goals on his own team. Not saying he wasn’t deserving of his smythe, only that McDavid leading ALL players in scoring while beating out Crosby in both the Hart and Lindsay voting by significant margins shouldn’t suddenly mean less than a smythe because Crosby won it.

But Getzlaf wasn't close to as good as him in the regular season though, that's the clear difference between your example here and McDavid vs Crosby in 16-17. They had nearly identical points per game in playoffs and regular season combined with one winning the Smythe and leading the league in goals by 4 while missing 7 games, that doesn't strike me as the season McDavid stripped Crosby of the title of best player in the world.

 

[tony d]

Option 6. He's still the best player in the league IMO.

 

[AD1066]

I think MacKinnon has surpassed him as well.

 

[GreatGonzo]

McDavid's PPG vs. the average PPG of the other Top Ten scorers

2016/17: McDavid's PPG - 1.22, Avg. of other Top Ten - 1.04

McDavid's PPG was 17% better


2017/18: McDavid's PPG - 1.32, Avg. of other Top Ten - 1.19

McDavid's PPG was 11% better


2018/19: McDavid's PPG - 1.49, Avg. of other Top Ten - 1.28

McDavid's PPG was 16% better


2019/20: McDavid's PPG - 1.55, Avg. of other Top Ten - 1.35

McDavid's PPG is 15% better


Conclusion: His production has not been getting any better relative the league's other elite scorers as his career has progressed so far.

Except you decided to add the “relative to his peers” part to this whole argument. You also said Crosby’s has been getting better, which it hasn’t according to your numbers. But, Daver gonna Daver

 

[GreatGonzo]

Who was close to him in the regular season that year? Malkin was the only one you could argue was very close, and it's always that way anyway other than his off seasons (and sometimes obviously he's better like this season so far).

So then it has to be close for the playoffs to be the deciding factor? That’s what I don’t get. Crosby was undeniably the best player in the league in 2014, but when it came to the playoffs, he flopped. Why wasn’t that taken into consideration regarding his status?

But Getzlaf wasn't close to as good as him in the regular season though, that's the clear difference between your example here and McDavid vs Crosby in 16-17. They had nearly identical points per game in playoffs and regular season combined with one winning the Smythe and leading the league in goals by 4 while missing 7 games, that doesn't strike me as the season McDavid stripped Crosby of the title of best player in the world.

How can Getzlaf not be close to Crosby but Crosby be close to McDavid? Both Crosby and McDavid swept the awards decisively. Getzlaf was keeping up with Crosby most of the year in terms of goals but was trailing in assists. I know the point gap between them was bigger(11 points to 17) but if the playoffs can be such a factor for McDavid, why can’t it be for Crosby?

I’m not one to add totals up considering how it obviously benefits Crosby more than McDavid. And in an unfair advantage. Not everyone is guaranteed the same amount of playoff games so of course the person with less is going to be on the losing side.

 

[Dr Salt]

Crosby is also on an overall better team with better defensive pairings and isn’t carrying the offensive load like McDavid has been. That kind of context can’t just be ignored, the Oilers have been on the other end of the spectrum in goals against while having one the weakest Power plays. McDavid has been carrying around a dumpster fire of a team, where as the Pens are a playoff team without Crosby. The Pens have been one of the better teams in Goals against and shots against this year, all a majority without Crosby. Crosby’s skill sets add to their already talented team, but he’s had more help than McDavid over the years and that should be taken into consideration.

I’m not saying Crosby shouldn’t get credit, but it shouldn’t be the deciding factor between the two in terms of who is and isn’t better. Crosby’s defense has never Stood out so much that it deserves more recognition than McDavids offense. He can’t score all the points, drive the play, and stop the other team from scoring. His own line mates are liabilities defensively as well. There is a lot more at play than just comparing their individual efforts.

Crosby also had better rel defensive stats (relative to your team) by a long gap and the RAPM charts are a metric that do factors for teammates. And I'm not saying Crosby's a selke winning forward (just a good defensive forward) but the gap between his defensive ability and McDavid's defensive ability is a lot larger then McDavid's offensive ability being better than Crosby's.

 

[Voight]

 

[Voight]

So then it has to be close for the playoffs to be the deciding factor? That’s what I don’t get. Crosby was undeniably the best player in the league in 2014, but when it came to the playoffs, he flopped. Why wasn’t that taken into consideration regarding his status?

How can Getzlaf not be close to Crosby but Crosby be close to McDavid? Both Crosby and McDavid swept the awards decisively. Getzlaf was keeping up with Crosby most of the year in terms of goals but was trailing in assists. I know the point gap between them was bigger(11 points to 17) but if the playoffs can be such a factor for McDavid, why can’t it be for Crosby?

I’m not one to add totals up considering how it obviously benefits Crosby more than McDavid. And in an unfair advantage. Not everyone is guaranteed the same amount of playoff games so of course the person with less is going to be on the losing side.

Crosby fans moving the goal posts.... what else is new?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby also had better rel defensive stats (relative to your team) by a long gap and the RAPM charts are a metric that do factors for teammates. And I'm not saying Crosby's a selke winning forward (just a good defensive forward) but the gap between his defensive ability and McDavid's defensive ability is a lot larger then McDavid's offensive ability being better than Crosby's.

I think this past year has boosted his defensive reputation more or less along with his numbers. this past year, McDavids defensive numbers took a turn for the worst while Crosby’s took a turn for the better. Crosby had a great year defensively overall last season, although I wouldn’t call him one of the best defensively like many have been.

that may be but the gap between them offensively has significantly gotten bigger over the last few years. I honestly don’t see how Crosby’s defense can make up for that gap, but that’s my opinion.

maybe he will strengthen his defensive game like Crosby has done later on, but only time will tell.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Both were great in the reg season in 16-17
Crosby was also great in the playoffs and was mvp of the World Cup, it takes more than one season to dethrone someone. After 17/18 mcdavid became the best.

 

[wetcoast]

Yeah but he hasn't. Over the past decade Crosby has been on the ice for a higher goals against / 60 at even strength than Alexander Ovechkin.

That and 5 bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

There is simply no evidence that McDavid and especially Ovechking being defensively as good as Crosby.

In fact the evidence points to Crosby being quite a bit better as a 200 foot player than those 2.

But let's not let facts get in the way of an obvious bias and narrative here right?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Both were great in the reg season in 16-17 Crosby was also great in the playoffs and was mvp of the World Cup, it takes more than one season to dethrone someone. After 17/18 mcdavid became the best.

So after Crosby doesn’t win a smythe, THEN regular season matters? That’s a odd take. Crosby wasn’t even considered the best in the league in 2016, and his smythe that year didn’t do him any favors.

 

[Mez]

This is Crosby's grace decade though...

 

[Panthaz89]

After McDavid won his 2nd Art Ross in a row so post 17/18 his last Ross where most of his points came at ES was crazy and now that the Oilers actually have a PP him(their PP had been garbage the previous 2 seasons) and Drai are just killing it on offense to make up for the rest of the team because they have absolutely have to.

 

[Midnight Judges]

That and 5 bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

There is simply no evidence that McDavid and especially Ovechking being defensively as good as Crosby.

In fact the evidence points to Crosby being quite a bit better as a 200 foot player than those 2.

But let's not let facts get in the way of an obvious bias and narrative here right?

I provided data (facts). You countered with opinion (not facts).

 

[wetcoast]

I provided data (facts). You countered with opinion (not facts).

GA/60 at 5 on 5 is a really weak argument.

Others have posted the defensive metrics that show Crosby to be a much better defensive player than Ovechkin in that other thread you created and then got destroyed in by the actual facts.

 

[Regal]

GA/60 at 5 on 5 is a really weak argument.

Others have posted the defensive metrics that show Crosby to be a much better defensive player than Ovechkin in that other thread you created and then got destroyed in byt the actual facts.

It's not even 5v5 though. It's ES, which includes empty net goals against because those are considered ES. But MJ somehow thinks that matters.

 

[Midnight Judges]

GA/60 at 5 on 5 is a really weak argument.

Others have posted the defensive metrics that show Crosby to be a much better defensive player than Ovechkin in that other thread you created and then got destroyed in by the actual facts.

It’s a bizarre world we live in where people are arguing that preventing goals somehow isn’t the objective of playing defense.

 

[Panthaz89]

It’s a bizarre world we live in where people are arguing that preventing goals somehow isn’t the objective of playing defense.

There is a lot of factors when counting goals against than just the player though.