Smelling Salt
Busey is life
The TN development idea looks fantastic but (assuming it goes ahead) I will eat my hat if it looks anything like that.
Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
Why do people continue to try and fight PR battles in Winnipeg with Chipman/TN.
Spoiler alert, people trust hockey a lot more than they like the city government, who in the past played a role in hockey leaving.
Spoiler alert, people trust hockey a lot more than they like the city government, who in the past played a role in hockey leaving.
After reading all the posts on here ,you can understand why Mr.Chipman decided to have this news conference and pulled the plug on this project(for now anyway). To many people who are so misinformed and are spewing what "THEY" think is going on and in the process crapping on Mr.Chipman and his business partners. I take from this is that he has had enough!! After reading here alone , people can see why!! Oh and just to let some of you know that CentreVentured was created by city council, works together with city council and the Honourary Chairperson is Mayor Brain Bowman!!!!
Well said. That is the funny part about people having "too little information". CentreVenture is getting crapped on big time in this story. These are people that have volunteered to help the city do complex deals to further the development of our decrepit and low density downtown. It is damn near impossible to find developers and people that want to do these deals and take these risks - in Winnipeg of all places...these people have facilitated moving some of these deals forward.
There are scores of people that say we "need transparency" in all of these civic deals (as if the City is/has not been aware). Anyone that was willing to pay attention knew all about this - it is not new! The Mayor got caught grandstanding and lying, and I would not be surprised if this whole development is scuttled.
Then all the folks looking for "transparent" dealings can truly learn how many people and developers are clamoring to do deals in downtown Winnipeg...hope we love our surface lots (and I hope I'm wrong - would love to see something like this developed
)
cutchemist42
Registered User
Couple of good ****** threads on this as well, if anyone wants to read more opinions.
http://www.***********/r/Winnipeg/comments/2utbiw/eli5_the_whole_centerventuresobowman_fiasco/
As for the design, it does look nice, but I sort question the outdoor sports plaza concept in Winnipeg. Video showed people wearing only Jets jerseys and big screens with the game on, does this architecture group not know our weather? I think some sort of closed plaza concept from the elements would be better.
http://www.***********/r/Winnipeg/comments/2utbiw/eli5_the_whole_centerventuresobowman_fiasco/
As for the design, it does look nice, but I sort question the outdoor sports plaza concept in Winnipeg. Video showed people wearing only Jets jerseys and big screens with the game on, does this architecture group not know our weather? I think some sort of closed plaza concept from the elements would be better.
Gil Fisher
Registered User
retractable!!! $500m!
seriously though, we have like 30 days per year that are below -20. otherwise, we're outside types.
Well said. That is the funny part about people having "too little information". CentreVenture is getting crapped on big time in this story. These are people that have volunteered to help the city do complex deals to further the development of our decrepit and low density downtown. It is damn near impossible to find developers and people that want to do these deals and take these risks - in Winnipeg of all places...these people have facilitated moving some of these deals forward.
There are scores of people that say we "need transparency" in all of these civic deals (as if the City is/has not been aware). Anyone that was willing to pay attention knew all about this - it is not new! The Mayor got caught grandstanding and lying, and I would not be surprised if this whole development is scuttled.
Then all the folks looking for "transparent" dealings can truly learn how many people and developers are clamoring to do deals in downtown Winnipeg...hope we love our surface lots (and I hope I'm wrong - would love to see something like this developed
Since you've been paying attention, can you give us the breakdown of where $400 million for this development is coming from?
One of many things to consider...
CentreVenture was created with the mandate to sell off surplus lands, not to buy perfectly viable businesses like
1) the ones on Main Street to build that monstrosity known as the WRHA that has done nothing to spur additional on that strip since it was built and
2) Carlton Hotel which was a profitable tax-paying business before Ross McGowan and company grossly overpaid for the land to the tune of $9 million plus and turned it into a non-tax-paying dirt surface. There are some suspicions that this deal was brokered to rid the SHED of an unwanted element stayed at the Carlton (same with the St. Regis), or at least, unwanted by the surburbanites that converged on the MTS Centre for concerts and Jets games. Incidentally, Chipman was on the board of CentreVenture at this time.
It has also been pointed out to me by someone on another forum that Stuart Olson could not find anyone interested in a hotel due to very specific and limiting conditions, one of which would be the $9 million that CV foolishly paid for the Carlton Inn. In other words, those conditions (lower price for the land perhaps?) may not exist with True North in the picture. True North may be looking at the Carlton Inn site with potentially very different terms, conditions, limitations and restrictions to what Stuart Olson was given. Does that sound like a level playing field to you.
Stuart Olson was instructed to find a mid-level or high-level hotel offering "reward points" to be part of the convention centre development and this search had to fit within the guidelines they had been given. Chipman came forward with his own proposal when word came out that SO was looking to be released from that portion of the contract ($16 million penalty). This may or may not meet the terms SOD was given. Due to the confidentiality agreement, the public and the city council cannot find out it True North proposal meets the SOD agreement. This second agreement (possibly with fewer requirements) was put in place before a survey could be done to see if any other parties were interested in a deal with these same lesser restrictions.
It should also be noted that CV has an executive director who reports to the board and that board in turn, reports to the council who created it. Therefore, signing a deal without a public proposal process allowing council to assess information is a significant breach of protocol.
The video itself is just that - a video, a glossy rendering. It is not 100% guaranteed that there is an agreement in place to transfer ownership of the site to True North.
Bowman campaigned on increased transparency at city hall. He has a right to question these deals as a duty to the taxpayers of the city. If the deal is legit, release the info. to the public. The proposed deal should be able to stand on its own merits.
CentreVenture was created with the mandate to sell off surplus lands, not to buy perfectly viable businesses like
1) the ones on Main Street to build that monstrosity known as the WRHA that has done nothing to spur additional on that strip since it was built and
2) Carlton Hotel which was a profitable tax-paying business before Ross McGowan and company grossly overpaid for the land to the tune of $9 million plus and turned it into a non-tax-paying dirt surface. There are some suspicions that this deal was brokered to rid the SHED of an unwanted element stayed at the Carlton (same with the St. Regis), or at least, unwanted by the surburbanites that converged on the MTS Centre for concerts and Jets games. Incidentally, Chipman was on the board of CentreVenture at this time.
It has also been pointed out to me by someone on another forum that Stuart Olson could not find anyone interested in a hotel due to very specific and limiting conditions, one of which would be the $9 million that CV foolishly paid for the Carlton Inn. In other words, those conditions (lower price for the land perhaps?) may not exist with True North in the picture. True North may be looking at the Carlton Inn site with potentially very different terms, conditions, limitations and restrictions to what Stuart Olson was given. Does that sound like a level playing field to you.
Stuart Olson was instructed to find a mid-level or high-level hotel offering "reward points" to be part of the convention centre development and this search had to fit within the guidelines they had been given. Chipman came forward with his own proposal when word came out that SO was looking to be released from that portion of the contract ($16 million penalty). This may or may not meet the terms SOD was given. Due to the confidentiality agreement, the public and the city council cannot find out it True North proposal meets the SOD agreement. This second agreement (possibly with fewer requirements) was put in place before a survey could be done to see if any other parties were interested in a deal with these same lesser restrictions.
It should also be noted that CV has an executive director who reports to the board and that board in turn, reports to the council who created it. Therefore, signing a deal without a public proposal process allowing council to assess information is a significant breach of protocol.
The video itself is just that - a video, a glossy rendering. It is not 100% guaranteed that there is an agreement in place to transfer ownership of the site to True North.
Bowman campaigned on increased transparency at city hall. He has a right to question these deals as a duty to the taxpayers of the city. If the deal is legit, release the info. to the public. The proposed deal should be able to stand on its own merits.
Hollywood3
Bison/Jet/Moose Fan
- May 12, 2007
- 6,464
- 967
Susan Thompson was the mayor at the time, and thiught Katz would decline their offer.
Gil Fisher
Registered User
Yes Liquor and Lotteries, not MPI. MPI owns the land. And it's just been bid to MLLC, not awarded.
bluefan
Registered User
- Nov 18, 2011
- 3,099
- 450
Honestly, after the stories my friends (both architects here) have told me on the development scene here, I'm surprised anything gets done. Once it took him 3 months to finally get approval to build a business sign that was over 25feet tall. Had everything ready to go then...a game of red tape ping pong.
He was also one of the project managers for the stadium and I swear, he probably shaved off 10 years of his life dealing with the city lol.
He was also one of the project managers for the stadium and I swear, he probably shaved off 10 years of his life dealing with the city lol.
cheswick
Non-registered User
Not quite. MPI owns the lot. Longboat has won the option to develop it. As part of their development they want to build an office tower in which liquors and lotteries will relocate their offices to. As orginally envisioned it was known as So Po. This was absent the Carlton inn site. That has been added to the vision and it renamed True North square.
- Mar 10, 2010
- 34,912
- 31,401
- Mar 10, 2010
- 34,912
- 31,401
Very common in Canada. Try getting anything done or through the planning departments in Ottawa or Toronto, especially downtown Toronto.
Last edited:
Gil Fisher
Registered User
The term you are looking for in the development world is:
"Value Engineering"
Yep, something like that happened with the parkade currently being built by Glasshouse. Retail at street level and some nice cladding on the parkade facing Carlton vs. what we get - no ground level retail and minimal cladding.
Samcanadian
Registered User
- Dec 13, 2011
- 2,849
- 183
Samcanadian
Registered User
- Dec 13, 2011
- 2,849
- 183
The term you are looking for in the development world is:
"Value Engineering"
The CMHR was Value Engineered to death, and it's still pretty impressive looking.
cheswick
Non-registered User
You said it was bid to MLCC. MLCC has nothing to do with bidding on or developing the lot. The development rights were awards to longboat/artis and they are negotiating in bringing MLCC into the proposed office building they want to develop.
Gil Fisher
Registered User
The bid to MLCC was for space in the new office tower. Sounds like MLCC is evaluating options.
I agree. from Chips press conference , it seemed to me he admitted he had inside info and wanted to take advantage of the situation when SO agreement looked like it was going to fall thru. In most cases when a deal falls thru such as the one SO had, it goes back to public to see if someone can come up with a better concept, in other words, proposals of development for the site.
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