OT: What's your take on the MC, BB, CV fiasco?

[19kiefer94]

It's not like I hate cool **** built in my hometown, but they these guys only do it when gifted public money.

I have not been able to read the most recent batch of articles, so I'm not sure if all this info is public knowledge but this is what I know for fact about th situation:
1) as part of Stuart Olsen's contract to do the renos on the convention centre, it was agreed that Stuart Olsen would find a developer for a hotel for the land across from the Carlton inn. If they failed to do do they fever a roughly $16 million fine. They couldn't find someone to develop so tried settling with a payment of $3.5 million.
2) chipman was approsched while still with cityventure to develop this land. CV didn't feel they could do it with out funds.
3) chipman steps down from cityventure to avoid further conflicts of interest in case this proceeds
4) as chipman owns the land across the street from the land where Stuart Olsen was to build a hotel, true north was approached about building the hotel here.
5) chipman agrees to do this and fulfill Stuart Olsen's contract and also add the true north sq extra to the hotel. (Despite TN already building s hotel blocks away)
6) chipman pays millions of his OWN dollars to get that video and plans drawn up.
7) chipman plans to go ahead and invest his own money- not tax dollars to build all this.a project that will not make him the amount of money a 400 million dollar investment should. (Sacrificing money for your city- not ripping it off)
8) bowman lies through his teeth in a bid for national media attention [mod]
9) chipman does nothing until people start hashing hi and TN for wanting to do something good to the city. Finally cracks and holds press conference.

Find me another person willing to do anything with that land, let along plunge millions of their own dollars into it , other than chipman. Stop ripping him for his actions. There was no back room deal. Everything was done within the confines of the law. If the mayor and others disagree, then change the law and don't let deals like that happen in the future. Chipman's transaction however was legal.

 

[Jets4Life]

I have not been able to read the most recent batch of articles, so I'm not sure if all this info is public knowledge but this is what I know for fact about th situation:
1) as part of Stuart Olsen's contract to do the renos on the convention centre, it was agreed that Stuart Olsen would find a developer for a hotel for the land across from the Carlton inn. If they failed to do do they fever a roughly $16 million fine. They couldn't find someone to develop so tried settling with a payment of $3.5 million.
2) chipman was approsched while still with cityventure to develop this land. CV didn't feel they could do it with out funds.
3) chipman steps down from cityventure to avoid further conflicts of interest in case this proceeds
4) as chipman owns the land across the street from the land where Stuart Olsen was to build a hotel, true north was approached about building the hotel here.
5) chipman agrees to do this and fulfill Stuart Olsen's contract and also add the true north sq extra to the hotel. (Despite TN already building s hotel blocks away)
6) chipman pays millions of his OWN dollars to get that video and plans drawn up.
7) chipman plans to go ahead and invest his own money- not tax dollars to build all this.a project that will not make him the amount of money a 400 million dollar investment should. (Sacrificing money for your city- not ripping it off)
8) bowman lies through his teeth in a bid for national media attention [mod]
9) chipman does nothing until people start hashing hi and TN for wanting to do something good to the city. Finally cracks and holds press conference.

Find me another person willing to do anything with that land, let along plunge millions of their own dollars into it , other than chipman. Stop ripping him for his actions. There was no back room deal. Everything was done within the confines of the law. If the mayor and others disagree, then change the law and don't let deals like that happen in the future. Chipman's transaction however was legal.

It honestly sounds like Bowman is quite naive about how city business is conducted. We are going 180 degrees, as the Katz regime was arguably criminal in nature. Considering Chipman's track record in this city, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I understand Bowman wants to end all corruption at city hall, but he should choose his battles more carefully.

 

[pegjets]

I have not been able to read the most recent batch of articles, so I'm not sure if all this info is public knowledge but this is what I know for fact about th situation:
1) as part of Stuart Olsen's contract to do the renos on the convention centre, it was agreed that Stuart Olsen would find a developer for a hotel for the land across from the Carlton inn. If they failed to do do they fever a roughly $16 million fine. They couldn't find someone to develop so tried settling with a payment of $3.5 million.

Not exactly. The $16 million was the holdback from the convention centre contract. Holdbacks are standard in construction where 10-15% of the contract value is paid upon completion of a job after a period. The nature of SO's commitment to find a hotel would come down to the wording of the construction contract, and how much of that $16 million could have actually been withheld by the city would have likely been a court matter.

2) chipman was approsched while still with cityventure to develop this land. CV didn't feel they could do it with out funds.
3) chipman steps down from cityventure to avoid further conflicts of interest in case this proceeds

4) as chipman owns the land across the street from the land where Stuart Olsen was to build a hotel, true north was approached about building the hotel here.
5) chipman agrees to do this and fulfill Stuart Olsen's contract and also add the true north sq extra to the hotel. (Despite TN already building s hotel blocks away)

This is one of the biggest issues because it remains unclear who approached who. Chipman himself said that he was aware of the whole matter from being on the CV board. The premise of the CV / TN agreement was based on insider information starting from Chipman's involvement on the board.

This is not a fault of TN (any business person should use any information advantage available to him/her) but this is more a criticism of how CV conducts deals.

6) chipman pays millions of his OWN dollars to get that video and plans drawn up.

You're making this one up - nothing has been said about the cost of TN's efforts so far. Also, TN is not the only player in this as, if you looked at the logos in the video, there are other companies involved (such as PCL, who built the CHRM). Usually these mega projects have complex funding arrangement and are joint ventures with capital provided by different firms.

7) chipman plans to go ahead and invest his own money- not tax dollars to build all this.a project that will not make him the amount of money a 400 million dollar investment should. (Sacrificing money for your city- not ripping it off)

Again you're making stuff up here. $400 million was what Chipman said would be the value of the project - no comments have been made about exactly how the project will be funded. The only thing right now known is that TN has deposited $100,000 on a signed option to purchase the land at an appraised value. As to how the construction would be funded, who the tenants of all these new developments would be (are any crown corporations or government agencies going to be tenants?) and what the tax financing will be (tax financing was mentioned in the press conference.

8) bowman lies through his teeth in a bid for national media attention (oh yea bowman's love of press conferences is to garner national media attention for his bid to down the road run for Prome minister - rumour from his staff.)
9) chipman does nothing until people start hashing hi and TN for wanting to do something good to the city. Finally cracks and holds press conference.

I do agree that Bowman has been misleading the public regard what he was aware of, but to the core of the issue is how CV negotiated the option and the press conference did very little to actually answer that (this is not something that TN needs to necessarily explain).

Find me another person willing to do anything with that land, let along plunge millions of their own dollars into it , other than chipman. Stop ripping him for his actions. There was no back room deal. Everything was done within the confines of the law. If the mayor and others disagree, then change the law and don't let deals like that happen in the future. Chipman's transaction however was legal.

It's hard for me to understand how you can objectively look at this and say this wasn't a backroom deal. I love the Jets and I am happy that TN and its partners have been at the forefront of developments in this city. However, as a resident and taxpayer I want to also ensure that land deals involving taxpayer owned assets are done in a transparent process with due process applied, and it's hard to deduce that this was the case. At this point the public honestly doesn't have enough information about this whole thing, and that should worry every resident of Winnipeg regardless of wether you love/hate Brian Bowman or Mark Chipman.

 

[Gil Fisher]

Pretty much nailed it, scopar.

I don't think it was an aggregious back room deal, but these elected officials campaigned on transparency and have to act on that.

Chipman purposely overreacted to this because he doesn't want to be lumped in with the shadier real estate dealers of recent times.

 

[Puckatron 3000]

7) chipman plans to go ahead and invest his own money- not tax dollars to build all this.a project that will not make him the amount of money a 400 million dollar investment should. (Sacrificing money for your city- not ripping it off)

Your post loses all credibility with this point.

Chipman and TN do not treat their business ventures like a charity, selflessly "sacrificing money for your city". Wow, is that naive.

 

[Jet]

I would agree with you but Chipman is the only one that is willing to fix up that craphole of downtown Winnipeg. The city doesn't have the money to do it. They will get lots of tax money from True North Centre once it's built.

Huh. Downtown is a craphole?

Huh.

 

[Jet]

Wait till we know how much of that $400M is coming from the public before you make that determination.

God I hate this line of thinking.

Governments spend money on this type of **** all the time. How do you think city's get all the shiny nice things that make them nice?

Obviously we don't want to get totally screwed but there is a mindset (especially it seems in Winnipeg, not singling you out) that the city is a ****** mess, but we shouldn't have to pay more taxes ever but the government should make everything nicer.

It's math that doesn't work. You have to either:

A> Accept the city's shortcomings
B> Spend more tax dollars to fix it (and by extension raise taxes)
C> Or enter into deals with business where you might take the short end of the stick a bit

The last one happens a LOT, especially in the States. That is how city's get all the nice things they have.

Anyway this has already gotten far too political for me (and probably this board).

 

[Derfel*]

Huh. Downtown is a craphole?

Huh.

Most people who say this haven't been downtown in 5 years or more, or have never been in another urban setting in their adult lives. In my experience, anyways...

 

[rahzar]

Obviously we don't want to get totally screwed but there is a mindset (especially it seems in Winnipeg, not singling you out) that the city is a ****** mess, but we shouldn't have to pay more taxes ever but the government should make everything nicer.

It's math that doesn't work. You have to either:

A> Accept the city's shortcomings
B> Spend more tax dollars to fix it (and by extension raise taxes)
C> Or enter into deals with business where you might take the short end of the stick a bit

This Winnipeg mentality baffles me sometimes.
"We want all the things! But we don't want to pay for all the things!"
Reminds me of U of M students.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Bowman has painted himself into a bad corner.

He gets out of it by making his Chief Of Staff the scapegoat. He will be fired.

Then Bowman gets to make up with Chipman (at least the appearance of it) and save face (at least the appearance of it).

 

[cheswick]

Not sure that seeing that video equates to knowledge that TN had a backroom option to purchase the Carlton inn land.

 

[Jimby]

Some here may not actually be aware of what CentreVenture actually is and why it was created. The idea that developers are coming to Winnipeg and soliciting the city for handouts is laughable.

It is actually the opposite. CentreVenture is run by VOLUNTEERS and is mandated by the city to wine and dine developers who can be coerced to overlook all the problems associated with our downtown with inducements of city money and tax breaks.

Before the city created CentreVenture people and businesses were fleeing the area leaving only the arsonists behind.

 

[Gotaf7]

City hall has no vision, has never had vision, and never will have vision, The basebal park was fought, MTS Center was fought against every thing that makes the city better gets opposition from city hall! This city is lucky to have guys like Chipman or we would just be another Regina!

 

[Gil Fisher]

Not sure that seeing that video equates to knowledge that TN had a backroom option to purchase the Carlton inn land.

And nobody has alleged that it does. Chipman said that option was sent to the city solicitors office. The video disproves Bowman's Chief of Staff's alleged statements that he wasn't even aware where the development was from the video.

 

[Sabadecade]

Pretty much nailed it, scopar.

My opinion is in line with scopar as well. As Jets fans, we must take Mark Chipman off our golden god pedestal and humanize him. In the end, he's a business man looking to make a deal.

IMHO, Bowman's integrity took a major hit yesterday but we also got a glimpse on how Chipman gets ahead in the business world.

Good and bad things all around for both of these men.

 

[sipowicz]

My opinion is in line with scopar as well. As Jets fans, we must take Mark Chipman off our golden god pedestal and humanize him. In the end, he's a business man looking to make a deal.

IMHO, Bowman's integrity took a major hit yesterday but we also got a glimpse on how Chipman gets ahead in the business world.

Good and bad things all around for both of these men.

Good point, both Chipman and BB are lawyers and smart men who are playing chess while us peons are stuck playing checkers.

 

[Derfel*]

City hall has no vision, has never had vision, and never will have vision, The basebal park was fought, MTS Center was fought against every thing that makes the city better gets opposition from city hall! This city is lucky to have guys like Chipman or we would just be another Regina!

The baseball field was fought because of the sweet deal given to the team's owner... who happened to be in charge of giving said sweet deal.

 

[cutchemist42]

I'll be honest, I jumped into this story late, and find it has a lot of background to fully understand.

Anyone got a good cliffs version to catch up?

edit-Nevermind, that blog is a great read I had never heard of, and yeah it does seem a little fishy from all side......not everyone is perfect, its possible for anyone in that business to get into stuff like this. Let's see how it develops further...

 

[seasontixholder*]

Most people who say this haven't been downtown in 5 years or more, or have never been in another urban setting in their adult lives. In my experience, anyways...

I lived in Calgary for a few years. Downtown is not a craphole. I traveled for work and even downtown Toronto is cleaner and nicer than Winnipeg's downtown. Vancouver downtown was very nice. Regina was meh. Saskatoon was not a very nice place. So ya I've been to many downtowns. I just went through downtown Atlanta and ya it's not a dump. Kansas City was nice, St. Louis not the greatest but the arch is beautiful. So before you shake your head maybe find out where people have been.

Oh I forgot. Ottawa is one of the nicest I have ever been too. 3 times now.

 

[sipowicz]

The baseball field was fought because of the sweet deal given to the team's owner... who happened to be in charge of giving said sweet deal.

Wrong timeline for that to hold true.

 

[Donald]

My opinion is in line with scopar as well. As Jets fans, we must take Mark Chipman off our golden god pedestal and humanize him. In the end, he's a business man looking to make a deal.

IMHO, Bowman's integrity took a major hit yesterday but we also got a glimpse on how Chipman gets ahead in the business world.

Good and bad things all around for both of these men.

Whoever said Chipman wasn't trying to make money? And why shouldn't he? The more money he makes on deals like this, the better for everyone as long as he's doing it legally and properly. Which it actually appears he is.

It bugs me when people try to tear down successful businesspeople for having the audacity to try to make money as they make our home a better place to live. Reminds me of what the NDP did to David Asper after he basically got the stadium deal done himself after fighting through all the neverending objections from every level of government. Except Chipman tends to need far less public money.

 

[pegjets]

Whoever said Chipman wasn't trying to make money? And why shouldn't he? The more money he makes on deals like this, the better for everyone as long as he's doing it legally and properly. Which it actually appears he is.

It bugs me when people try to tear down successful businesspeople for having the audacity to try to make money as they make our home a better place to live. Reminds me of what the NDP did to David Asper after he basically got the stadium deal done himself after fighting through all the neverending objections from every level of government. Except Chipman tends to need far less public money.

I think you can read 19kiefer94's post and see that some people seem to think TN is an altruistic organization - it's not unique to that poster, but fairly common in the city and usually goes hand in hand with Jets euphoria.

I want to be clear that I am not suggesting that TN did something illegal, but I can't help but feel that environment CV conducts deals in isn't passing a basic smell test. My intuition is also telling me, considering TN's intentions to build a hotel in the area before 2014, that there is more to the story about the Carlton property demolition and what was in Stuart Olson's contract. From what has been made available, SO got the contract to build the convention centre with a large component being acquiring that hotel developer (and it was a criteria in that RFP process), so it is very difficult to look at that falling through and TN's new developments and the exclusive option as independent events.

Also, public money is all over the place and that's not a criticism, just a reality. Part of the property in TN's plans/video is owned by MPI. In any city taxpayer money is involved to spur and entice development, and since Winnipeg has such a large public sector that owns real estate downtime (or are moving their headquarters downtown), it is inevitable that we will be involved directly and indirectly. What we should be asking for is both transparency, sufficient internal controls and due process governing these deals as the risk is high for favouritism that may not be in our best interests.

 

[Jimby]

You got it.

Bowman has painted himself into a bad corner.

He gets out of it by making his Chief Of Staff the scapegoat. He will be fired.

Then Bowman gets to make up with Chipman (at least the appearance of it) and save face (at least the appearance of it).

 

[Derfel*]

Oh I forgot. Ottawa is one of the nicest I have ever been too. 3 times now.

Ottawa can't really be held in comparison, as a national capital. I'd argue that Calgary's downtown isn't much better than ours for the amount of money they have had in municipal funding over the past three decades. Vancouver blows us out of the water... but then again, they don't have to deal with much winter clearing and the same road problems we do.

Winnipeg's downtown has its issues, but overall it's not a horrible place.

 

[ShooTer44]

After reading all the posts on here ,you can understand why Mr.Chipman decided to have this news conference and pulled the plug on this project(for now anyway). To many people who are so misinformed and are spewing what "THEY" think is going on and in the process crapping on Mr.Chipman and his business partners. I take from this is that he has had enough!! After reading here alone , people can see why!! Oh and just to let some of you know that CentreVentured was created by city council, works together with city council and the Honourary Chairperson is Mayor Brain Bowman!!!!