OT: What's your take on the MC, BB, CV fiasco?

[Hollywood3]

I read the article too. He thinks everyone is a crook. Who isn't then? Until I hear BB I am still siding with MC.

The Black Rod is a great blog. It always gets useful inside information that makes politicians squirm.

IMO Bowman may have been ready to go along with True North but once he caught a whiff of the stench he chose to distance himself from it. He probably sees that the parallels between him, True North, and CV (on the one hand) and Katz, Shindleman, and Sheegl (on the other) are too obvious to ignore.

 

[seasontixholder*]

On the whole tax breaks for the rich thing (TNSE), I'm kinda of two minds. I get that even with the tax breaks, it's a net benefit for the city. So practically speaking, it is a good deal.

From a more ideological viewpoint, it seems bogus. Why should small businesses, or even the average worker with less money and less power have to pay more taxes?

So, I look at it as kind of a necessary evil, due to a corrupt system. The rich get richer...

I don't blame Chipman. As a businessman, you take what you can get, or you get nowhere.

That's the world we live in. If it isn't MC then it would be someone else. I am just a little pissed at Bowman saying he didn't see the video. When Chief said they did. I want to hear what he has to say.

 

[pucka lucka]

On the whole tax breaks for the rich thing (TNSE), I'm kinda of two minds. I get that even with the tax breaks, it's a net benefit for the city. So practically speaking, it is a good deal.

From a more ideological viewpoint, it seems bogus. Why should small businesses, or even the average worker with less money and less power have to pay more taxes?

So, I look at it as kind of a necessary evil, due to a corrupt system. The rich get richer...

I don't blame Chipman. As a businessman, you take what you can get, or you get nowhere.

Uhuh. The pyramid is far too steep.

 

[seasontixholder*]

The Black Rod is a great blog. It always gets useful inside information that makes politicians squirm.

IMO Bowman may have been ready to go along with True North but once he caught a whiff of the stench he chose to distance himself from it. He probably sees that the parallels between him, True North, and CV (on the one hand) and Katz, Shindleman, and Sheegl (on the other) are too obvious to ignore.

I understand the logic. By why lie that he didn't see the video. Need to hear what he has to say.

 

[BigZ65]

Please don't be in such a hurry to defend the mayor!!! He said he didn't see it....which has now come out as a known lie!! Lets see what other lies are out there before we start crapping on Mr. Chipman.

I'm not defending the mayor or crapping on Chipman. Seeing a couple renderings, even in video form, even with the best background music possible, does not constitute knowing the details of a land deal and development plan. I don't believe that Chipman is sneaking around, he took an opportunity that was available because CentreVenture overreached their mandate without going back to the city.

Keep in mind that the first renderings and videos of our football stadium were of a scaled-down version of Arizona's stadium with blue and gold seats instead of red and white ones. Renderings and videos of what something might be are not details.

 

[BigZ65]

I understand the logic. By why lie that he didn't see the video. Need to hear what he has to say.

Bowman didn't say that. He has stated that the city was not aware of the option CentreVenture signed with Stuart Olson Dominion and TNSE, and that he was unaware of details surrounding the deal and development plan. This video is a red herring.

 

[seasontixholder*]

Bowman didn't say that. He has stated that the city was not aware of the option CentreVenture signed with Stuart Olson Dominion and TNSE, and that he was unaware of details surrounding the deal and development plan. This video is a red herring.

I should have said that Bowman said the video lacked detail where the location site was. Come on Stevie Wonder could see where it was in the video.

 

[scelaton]

Bowman didn't say that. He has stated that the city was not aware of the option CentreVenture signed with Stuart Olson Dominion and TNSE, and that he was unaware of details surrounding the deal and development plan. This video is a red herring.

And you believe that?

 

[BigZ65]

And you believe that?

Yes. Given how the previous administration (Sheegl) operated, I have no doubt that council was completely in the dark. It would be the odd occasion for them to actually have the information. We know it didn't hit the floor of council, it was never voted on. The original deal for Stuart Olson Dominion to find a hotelier to operate the new hotel that they would operate as part of the Convention Centre upgrade was voted on. CentreVenture went rogue when Stuart Olson Dominion couldn't complete their part of that deal.

 

[seasontixholder*]

Kives just updated his article in the WFP.

This creates a massive credibility problem for Winnipeg’s new mayor, who told reporters in January he did not meet with Mark Chipman and did not know much about the proposal beyond "rumours and rumblings."

Not good Mr. Bowman.

 

[sipowicz]

Chipman was 100% believable, really don't know what game BB is playing, heck I voted for the guy but he better clear this up because a $400M deal is at stake and this city can't let that walk away!

 

[BigZ65]

Chipman was 100% believable, really don't know what game BB is playing, heck I voted for the guy but he better clear this up because a $400M deal is at stake and this city can't let that walk away!

Wait till we know how much of that $400M is coming from the public before you make that determination.

 

[Boreal]

It's a bizarre situation, where Centre Venture looks abundantly incompetent, if not crooked, and our rookie mayor picking a strange fight, publicly no less, against an organization that is well respected, headed by a man who may well be the most powerful person in the province.

I wonder what Bowman's end-game is. From where I am sitting right now, it is difficult to discern.

***

The development looks incredible, in isolation.

 

[Puckatron 3000]

I wonder what Bowman's end-game is. From where I am sitting right now, it is difficult to discern.

I was wondering the exact same thing. The only explanation I could come up with is Bowman got caught in a situation where he had to lie*, or make himself look bad. Perhaps he didn't have time to think through the consequences of that lie (the battle with Chipman), or he misjudged them.

* Assuming Chipman's version of events are correct.

 

[scelaton]

It's a bizarre situation, where Centre Venture looks abundantly incompetent, if not crooked, and our rookie mayor picking a strange fight, publicly no less, against an organization that is well respected, headed by a man who may well be the most powerful person in the province.

I wonder what Bowman's end-game is. From where I am sitting right now, it is difficult to discern.

***

The development looks incredible, in isolation.

My concern is that Bowman wants to be seen as the 'Anti-Katz' and is more concerned with that image than he is about making pragmatic realpolitik decisions.
I don't want my Mayor making the wrong decisions for the sake of his image.

 

[Guardian17]

Links with videos and stories:

http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/centreve...e-north-s-deal-for-carlton-inn-land-1.2218996

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/True-North-chairman-to-speak-to-media-today-290810601.html

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2015/01/31/downtowns-best-case-scenario

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...puts-carlton-street-project-on-hold-1.2945104

The video of the proposed development looks amazing.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Big time corruption in Winnipeg and its been going on for a long time. I have heard that only Montreal can top Winnipeg in corruption and they got the Mafia in that city.

I am shocked that the good people of Winnipeg sit back and take it. I am shocked they allow those people inside city hall to make decisions about the cities future when all they seem to accept is envelope stuffed full of money by anyone who has the money to do so.

We as a city can be so great but we have sat by for so long and allowed so very few to profit from it.

People wonder why main street looks the way it does or why are streets are ruined or why garbage pickup sucks or why we can't clear snow from our streets. Everything leads back to city hall and the people they serve those rich few in the City.

 

[pegjets]

I'm mixed on this one.

1. From today's conference, it is clear Bowman knew more about the deal than he lead on. It was pretty clear from the video where the location was, so it was disingenuous for him to have said that it wasn't clear where the development was. I think he needs to reign in his tough guy image and be more factual.

2. Chipman took advantage of an opportunity, but was also being disingenuous that he wasn't capitalizing on inside information - this was a classic case of inside information. He was on the board to become aware of the deal and it was never advertised to other potential developers. If someone out there wanted to have a shot at development (outside of the Stuart Olson arrangement), they never had the chance. This is a classic backdoor deal regardless of how you dress it up.

And then it gets even more fishy:

3. The deal states that TN will buy the land from the city at fair market value - however this is after the existing building has already been demolished and centre venture has already bought the land. The fair market value is tainted at this point, and it's tough to read whether the city (tax payers) will actually be getting a "fair" value for the lot.

4. TN has been talking about building a hotel on their lot on Carlton for a couple years now. The fact that Stuart Olson was unable to find a hotelier for the other Carlton lot might be directly related to the fact that it has been public that TN was planning to build a hotel right next door - no one else in the city has deeper pockets than TN and this is a good reason for a hotelier to not opt-in.

5. TN has bid to house the new Liquor and Lotteries headquarters - it is not clear if this is on the same property. If it is (i.e. they would be an anchor tenant), then essentially a good percentage of their commercial space would be taxpayer funded through a provincial crown corp. Taxpayer dollars are getting involved from multiple avenues (potentially).

The government is involved in land deals at so many levels (either via the City, city-owned businesses like CentreVenture, provincial crown corps, etc.) that I think we all need to be really concerned with how all these transactions are really going down. At this point it just seems like Chipman and Bowman are now fighting a popularity contest in the media, and things just don't seem right to me...

 

[Donald]

Wait till we know how much of that $400M is coming from the public before you make that determination.

I bet it'll be more private money than the stadium, museum of human rights, airport... The list goes on.

We have lots of shiny new toys in Winnipeg, but they're all being paid for by the taxpayer. Chipman seems to be one of only a few that is willing to actually spend some of his own money and he gets stabbed in the back by the mayor. So maybe we should just relax about some tax breaks. Our taxes aren't going down if they don't get them anyways.

 

[seasontixholder*]

I read a poster that made a good comment.

That person stated, in all of this I hope it's just not Bowman trying to be the anti-Katz.

 

[Jimby]

No, that is not fishy. A property with an unusable building on it is worth less - not more. By demolishing the hotel the city was in creasing the value of the land. True North would be paying more for the empty lot than for the lot with the old hotel on it. The market value was not "tainted".

It is standard practice for a seller will demolish a building prior to putting such a property on the market.

I'm mixed on this one.



And then it gets even more fishy:

3. The deal states that TN will buy the land from the city at fair market value - however this is after the existing building has already been demolished and centre venture has already bought the land. The fair market value is tainted at this point, and it's tough to read whether the city (tax payers) will actually be getting a "fair" value for the lot.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Can someone explain whats going on?

 

[tntkid]

What Mark Chipman & True North are looking to do with the property looks absolutely amazing.

Chipman backed Bowman while he was on his campaign to be mayor.

Bowman is biting the hand that fed him & he should have kept his mouth shut on this situation in my opinion.

 

[LadyJet26]

Can someone explain whats going on?

From what I can tell. Chipman and Bowman are having a pissing match.

 

[Puckatron 3000]

Great read on things, scopar.

edit: And good summary, LadyJet.