What would you prefer this year: 8th or 16th

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

8th....never understood why anyone would fantasize about losing.

IMO, I don't think it will be either but somewhere in between.

8th is still losing and we don't have enough elite pieces to move into the top tier just yet

The ultimate goal is to be a cup contender

It's sad to say but some of you Leafs fans are so afraid of any pain...

This is why I'm glad Shanahan and Babcock and now Lou are in charge. They realize pain is coming

 

[Loosie]

8th is still losing and we don't have enough elite pieces to move into the top tier just yet

The ultimate goal is to be a cup contender

It's sad to say but some of you Leafs fans are so afraid of any pain...

This is why I'm glad Shanahan and Babcock and now Lou are in charge. They realize pain is coming

I understand pain is coming. I understand we could very well finish last. However if the choice is would rather the team finish 8th or 16th, I will always pick 8th. It may not be realistic, but I will always choose the higher finish for where I would LIKE to finish.

It seems too much on this board that if we can't contend for the cup then we need to tank. It seems like people are saying "what's the point in trying if we can't win it all, let's finish last and get this latest #1 pick"

 

[Guy Boucher]

If your rebuild depends on getting the top pick, you have a stupid rebuild plan.

Whether we finish 8th or 16th, management is going to continue trading off assets for draft picks and draft as often as they can.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

I understand pain is coming. I understand we could very well finish last. However if the choice is would rather the team finish 8th or 16th, I will always pick 8th. It may not be realistic, but I will always choose the higher finish for where I would LIKE to finish.

It seems too much on this board that if we can't contend for the cup then we need to tank. It seems like people are saying "what's the point in trying if we can't win it all, let's finish last and get this latest #1 pick"

Not necessarily, there needs to be a clear path though where this team does eventually become a cup contender. For most teams, it's tanking and stockpiiing assets.

If Chicago decides to makes a run for the playoffs after 2005 (which they could have), are they still cup contenders without Kane and Toews?

Or LAK without their 2 top 5 picks in Doughty and Schenn (who leads to Carter). The season before they drafted Doughty, they had the 4th overall pick as well

If the world ended on June 2016, yes I would agree, I would rather finish 8th than 16th

 

[Kelly]

Can never say no to Leaf playoff hockey!!

8th AINEC for me.

 

[maketrades]

8th is still losing and we don't have enough elite pieces to move into the top tier just yet

The ultimate goal is to be a cup contender

It's sad to say but some of you Leafs fans are so afraid of any pain...

This is why I'm glad Shanahan and Babcock and now Lou are in charge. They realize pain is coming

If you think they would rather finish 16th rather than 8th you're high.

I don't know how people could say they don't want us to make the playoffs. We have elite pieces. We can find one more elite defensemen somewhere in the middle of the first round. If we were somehow good enough to make the playoffs how could you not want that?

P.S The draft lottery sucks now for tanking purposes. It's sad that apparently this forum is full of losers.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

If you think they would rather finish 16th rather than 8th you're high.

I don't know how people could say they don't want us to make the playoffs. We have elite pieces. We can find one more elite defensemen somewhere in the middle of the first round. If we were somehow good enough to make the playoffs how could you not want that?

P.S The draft lottery sucks now for tanking purposes. It's sad that apparently this forum is full of losers.

Sure and then next we can find another elite forward in the 5th round and we'll be set

What's sad is that this forum is so afraid of take a step backwards before going forward, so afraid that success isn't on the frontdoor, so afraid of going through a long process to reach its ultimate goal. Brian Burke is the right GM for some of you

Some fans here believe it's as simple as getting 8th this season, then by 16-17 we'll be cup contenders.

 

[Kelly]

Sure and then next we can find another elite forward in the 5th round and we'll be set

What's sad is that this forum is so afraid of take a step backwards before going forward, so afraid that success isn't on the frontdoor, so afraid of going through a long process to reach its ultimate goal. Brian Burke is the right GM for some of you

Some fans here believe it's as simple as getting 8th this season, then by 16-17 we'll be cup contenders.

And some believe if we draft 1st OA were set for the future. So many factors involved in creating a successful hockey team, having the worst season possible may help, but isnt the perfect recipe.

Having a winning culture, and marinating our young guys in a team that works hard and makes the playoffs could just be as important as picking another blue chipper next year in the draft.

For all the Pittsburghs, Chicagos etc there are teams like Edmonton, Arizona, Carolina etc..

If Toronto pulls a Calgary next year, with our young guys being a big part of it then I will be very happy. You're also out to lunch if you believe Lou, Babcock, and others would prefer to lose, than to make the post season.

 

[Teeder9]

We're going to get dummied a lot this season. Not sure how positive a light you need to see this team to think we're not, but I'll take what some of you are smoking. Cup or top pick for me. 40 years of not good enough is frankly, enough.

 

[maketrades]

Sure and then next we can find another elite forward in the 5th round and we'll be set

What's sad is that this forum is so afraid of take a step backwards before going forward, so afraid that success isn't on the frontdoor, so afraid of going through a long process to reach its ultimate goal. Brian Burke is the right GM for some of you

Some fans here believe it's as simple as getting 8th this season, then by 16-17 we'll be cup contenders.

No most really don't. Some people just don't accept that we need to be in the bottom 5 for 4 more years before we have a solid core to more forward.

We have solid pieces in place and were at the point where we can build on the go. If we make playoffs we make playoffs and everyone should be really happy about it.

People who say we won't compete for 5-6 years disgust me.

 

[Pilky01]

Tank until further notice.

Hard to believe there are still "find an elite defenceman in the middle of the first round" and "we have solid pieces in place" people here still, after all these years of nothing, it seems some fans will forever refuse to learn from the past.

Brian Burke definitely was the GM alot of you people deserve. It won't be long before posters here are talking about trading first rounders because "this isn't a bottom 5 team".

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

And some believe if we draft 1st OA were set for the future. So many factors involved in creating a successful hockey team, having the worst season possible may help, but isnt the perfect recipe.

Having a winning culture, and marinating our young guys in a team that works hard and makes the playoffs could just be as important as picking another blue chipper next year in the draft.

For all the Pittsburghs, Chicagos etc there are teams like Edmonton, Arizona, Carolina etc..

If Toronto pulls a Calgary next year, with our young guys being a big part of it then I will be very happy. You're also out to lunch if you believe Lou, Babcock, and others would prefer to lose, than to make the post season.

Of course there are many factors involved in creating a successful hockey team. The first step is building a core. Do you have a better chance of building a core picking 1st or 15th? Well it seems like you have the belief anyways that we'll get the next Great defenseman picking 15th overall so maybe my point is moot to some of you

In 2013, how did making the playoffs help marinate our core players like Kessel, JVR, Reimer, Phaneuf, Kadri into further success? How did that winning culture translate into future success?

Um, did Carolina not win the Stanley Cup with 2nd overall pick Eric Staal? How many Top 5 picks have they had since? 1. (not counting this year)

Before this season, how many Top 5 picks did Arizona have? 1.

Before this season, how many Top 5 picks did Toronto have? 1.

Some weird examples you're using

 

[BayStreetBully]

For that to happen, Kadri will need to produce at a near-PPG pace and Holland ramps up production to 60-point. It will require Rielly breaking out at +40-points and Gardiner further developing his offensive game. The complementary guys like Panik and the rest will need to produce well as well.

Would I be disappointed? Definitely not. It's not like we can't move our complementary and older pieces ( pretty sure Dion would rebound) for futures and grab a top 10 pick to boot.

Well said. For us to make the playoffs, either our offense has to improve leaps and bounds, or our defense does. A better performance means a better core the following year, and better trades at the deadline for those not part of our core. Sounds good to me.

And if Rielly develops into a #1 d-man, whoo-boy, I'd take that over just about anything else.

 

[Kelly]

Of course there are many factors involved in creating a successful hockey team. The first step is building a core. Do you have a better chance of building a core picking 1st or 15th? Well it seems like you have the belief anyways that we'll get the next Great defenseman picking 15th overall so maybe my point is moot to some of you

In 2013, how did making the playoffs help marinate our core players like Kessel, JVR, Reimer, Phaneuf, Kadri into further success? How did that winning culture translate into future success?

Um, did Carolina not win the Stanley Cup with 2nd overall pick Eric Staal? How many Top 5 picks have they had since? 1. (not counting this year)

Before this season, how many Top 5 picks did Arizona have? 1.

Before this season, how many Top 5 picks did Toronto have? 1.

Some weird examples you're using

Not really. Being that the first four picks are lottery now, I don't see why you're even using top 5 OA as a metric. Phoenix has made the playoffs 3 times in the past 12 years and have picked there share of players high in the draft.

Look no further than Edmonton, how many 1st OA selections and they're still complete crap.

Don't put words in my mouth please -- never said anything about picking a star 15th OA -- my post only outlined how it was just as important for the development of the players we have now if we fought our way into the playoffs.

That's nice and all that Carolina won the cup with a high draft pick on their team, but its a team that wins the cup not 1 player. IIRC Stillman, Brind'Amour, Weight, Williams, Cullen all were big parts of the cup win as well with Staal, and most importantly Cam Ward.

do you think it was more beneficial for Calgary rallying together and making the playoffs last year, or do you think it wouldve served them better to be a bottom ten team?

I understand your opinion, getting a Matthews, or Chyrchrun would be great, but making the playoffs next year wouldn't be as terrible as your making it out to be.

 

[maketrades]

Tank until further notice.

Hard to believe there are still "find an elite defenceman in the middle of the first round" and "we have solid pieces in place" people here still, after all these years of nothing, it seems some fans will forever refuse to learn from the past.

Brian Burke definitely was the GM alot of you people deserve. It won't be long before posters here are talking about trading first rounders because "this isn't a bottom 5 team".

Most elite D-men are actually found later than the middle of the first round.

And yes we have the most solid pieces we've had in recent memory - Marner, Nylander, Rielly, Brown, Kapanen, Percy...

No one here is saying that they think we will make the playoffs this year because so much would have to go right for us to do that. That's exactly why people should be extremely happy if we did, it means multiple players took huge leaps forward.

 

[666]

For those of you who think that Babcock is going to change anything, I think you're insane. The Leafs already had the coach that replaced Babcock and won the cup in Anaheim. I can assure you that he's no better than Carlyle and possibly a lot worse as he hasn't coached a team as horrible as the Leafs in a very long time. Add to it that Carlyle had a 40 goal scorer in Kessel and it is virtually impossible that the Leafs make the playoffs this season. It is much more likely that they finish near the bottom.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Depends. Are we being lead to the playoffs by Bozak, Lupul, Dion, Winnik, Matthias? In that scenario, there is nothing to gain by that. If we are lead to the playoffs by Rielly, Gardiner, Nylander, Marner, Kadri, then that's exciting. I want no part of the first option.

 

[ACC1224]

8th is still losing and we don't have enough elite pieces to move into the top tier just yet

The ultimate goal is to be a cup contender

It's sad to say but some of you Leafs fans are so afraid of any pain...

This is why I'm glad Shanahan and Babcock and now Lou are in charge. They realize pain is coming

Why would anyone be afraid of something that is out of my control?
Pretty much the last 10 years have been painful, I'm immune to it.

I don't understand why some would be afraid that my wish may somehow come true and theirs may not.

 

[TheProspector]

Low seed playoffs, ANIEC.

You can always improve a good team into a great team on the fly. Just because the Leafs failed the retool doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't do it. Hell, where would Tampa be without having picked up Tyler Johnson as a college FA, Kucherov in the late 2nd round, Palat in the 7th round, Filpula in UFA, Stalman in UFA, etc?

Their whole team ex-Stamkos has been built on later-round picks and UFAs, and Stamkos basically was the weakest top-6 forward for them in the playoffs. Not to say that Stamkos isn't awesome, but without Johnson and co, they don't make the playoffs, let alone SCFs.

The Leafs need success in coaching, scouting and moneypuck to succeed. Another top-5 pick would add another good player, but it isn't worth the price of losing, which destroys young players. See Edmonton for a prime example.

 

[Community]

16th... A top 2 pick would be huge (assuming we don't end up with the 5th pick after the lotteries). Grabbing Chychrun or Matthews would give us another elite prospect to put us over the top.

Another reason I really want a high pick this year is because its possible an expansion team (or two) enter in 17/18 season which means the top 2 picks in 2017 could already be locked up for the teams entering the league. Leafs need another elite prospect before we start to improve IMO.

JVR - Marner - Nylander
xxxx - Kadri - Brown

Rielly - Chychrun

Bernier

Chychrun would really help to complete our core. Adding Matthews would also be nice, but I think that forces us to trade at least 1 of Marner, Nylander, and Kadri (I see at least 1 of them ending up a winger... Not sure who, but at this point I think if we keep all three, Nylander is most likely to be a winger).

 

[Suntouchable13]

Low seed playoffs, ANIEC.

You can always improve a good team into a great team on the fly. Just because the Leafs failed the retool doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't do it. Hell, where would Tampa be without having picked up Tyler Johnson as a college FA, Kucherov in the late 2nd round, Palat in the 7th round, Filpula in UFA, Stalman in UFA, etc?

Their whole team ex-Stamkos has been built on later-round picks and UFAs, and Stamkos basically was the weakest top-6 forward for them in the playoffs. Not to say that Stamkos isn't awesome, but without Johnson and co, they don't make the playoffs, let alone SCFs.

The Leafs need success in coaching, scouting and moneypuck to succeed. Another top-5 pick would add another good player, but it isn't worth the price of losing, which destroys young players. See Edmonton for a prime example.

They don't have many young players on the team right now. They are still being lead by Bozak (puke), Lupul, and Dion. And then there is Winnik, Matthias, and a couple of other veteran scrubs. Most of our good youngsters will probably be in the AHL/juniors/Europe.

 

[Community]

Depends. Are we being lead to the playoffs by Bozak, Lupul, Dion, Winnik, Matthias? In that scenario, there is nothing to gain by that. If we are lead to the playoffs by Rielly, Gardiner, Nylander, Marner, Kadri, then that's exciting. I want no part of the first option.

I wouldn't mind the first option.... As long as they're then moved before the TDL after significantly improving their value :p

 

[Suntouchable13]

I wouldn't mind the first option.... As long as they're then moved before the TDL after significantly improving their value :p

O yea, that's true. I forgot about that

 

[TasteLikeBurning]

16th in the east and hopefully dead last in the league. Lose the lottery and drop to 2nd as worst case scenario.

 

[Menzinger]

If the Leafs manage to overcome the odds and make it to the playoffs I'll be cheering as loud as anyone.

But I do think one more year of pain, and getting a high pick would do a lot more for the team's future success than a series worth of playoff games would. How many guys on the leafs current will even be around in 3-4 seasons from now?

Lots of awful teams have overachieved and made the playoffs (ie the Leafs in 13', the Avs"). How much has that really impacted their teams development? Both the Leafs and the Avs are still awful. Getting the right team culture starts with getting the most skilled players and winning games with them. "Culture "isn't going to turn a 3rdliner into a top six player - bad players are still bad.