What would it take to get Barrie extended this season?

[MarkT]

Timmins and Makar will probably be on bridge deals; Makar may even still be on his ELC. Zadorov isn't going to break the bank unless his entire play style drastically changes. Girard is a wild card but if he's making a ton by then, that's a good thing; it means he's taken significant steps forward. We'll be able to afford it.

You ask Johnson to waive for Seattle because in this magical fairytale where Timmins and Makar are immediately amazing defensemen, Johnson is probably the worst player on that defense by then. You probably don't have to worry about protecting Timmins and Makar for Seattle because, again, neither of them are in the NHL as of now, so you protect Barrie/Zadorov/Girard. Or you protect 8 skaters. This isn't some kind of overly complicated puzzle that is impossible to figure out. Other teams strive to have defenses like this. It's only Avs fans that insist on having at least one bad defenseman in their top 6 at all times.

So in your ideal scenario we lose EJ for nothing. Are you serious?
And the expansion draft is likely before the 2020-21 season, which is why I said three years from now. If Makar and Timmins aren't playing at least 40 games each in 2019-20 then I'll be surprised. So no, you can't just protect Barrie, Zadorov and Girard and handwave things away with "protect 8 skaters" because that means we'd lose a good forward instead of a good defenseman.

And the key is, we're not talking about signing Barrie to a short term deal. If we resign him it's going to be for the long term, and eventually we'll have to pay him along with Makar, Timmins, Zadorov and Girard. And even if none of them break the bank, that could represent a huge chunk of the salary cap if you factor in EJ.

And I don't know who you're referring to, but nobody I know insists on having at least one "bad" defenseman in the top 6. Some of us just don't think that in a salary cap world you can afford to have 6 guys paid like top 4 defensemen on your roster. Unless of course you think every defenseman who isn't a bonafide top 4 guy is "bad".

 

[McMetal]

It's like you think the people that are pro-Barrie don't have a basic understanding of the game. Some value offensive defensemen more than you do, simple as that.

The burning question for me though is WHY? What understanding of the game do you have that I don't that makes you think that scoring is the only job a defenseman needs to have?

 

[Patagonia]

Barrie being traded is his possible salary demands. Trying to be unbias and use the NHL player rankings list him as the 14th best DMan in the league.

Fantasy top 50 defenseman rankings for 2018-19

This would place him in range of $6.5-$7.0M range.

Notice the interesting pattern by Sakic are the strongest with DMen. He restocked the system on the eventuality of replacing players in certain positions.

DMen (Girard, Makar, Timmins & Meloche)
Goalies (Grub, Francouz & Annunen)
Wingers (Kamenev, Bowers, Greer, Ranta).

There is still the return from trading Barrie and the 2 - 1sts next season.

There is also the depth signings of Cole, Nemeth and Barbeiro for surprisingly 2-3 years. Not much offensively, they give the youngsters more time to develop and not a defensive liability. The term seems surprising since the youngsters are close, but this might be for another reason.

Although, keeping Barrie would be preferred, he is terrible defensively and costly when trying to extend his contract. Sakic has loaded up on DMen and this is not a coincidence. I suspect the drafting, trades and signings of DMen is to prepare trading Barrie sooner than later.

 

[MarkT]

Barrie being traded is his possible salary demands. Trying to be unbias and use the NHL player rankings list him as the 14th best DMan in the league.

Fantasy top 50 defenseman rankings for 2018-19

This would place him in range of $6.5-$7.0M range.

Notice the interesting pattern by Sakic are the strongest with DMen. He restocked the system on the eventuality of replacing players in certain positions.

DMen (Girard, Makar, Timmins & Meloche)
Goalies (Grub, Francouz & Annunen)
Wingers (Kamenev, Bowers, Greer, Ranta).

There is still the return from trading Barrie and the 2 - 1sts next season.

There is also the depth signings of Cole, Nemeth and Barbeiro for surprisingly 2-3 years. Not much offensively, they give the youngsters more time to develop and not a defensive liability. The term seems surprising since the youngsters are close, but this might be for another reason.

Although, keeping Barrie would be preferred, he is terrible defensively and costly when trying to extend his contract. Sakic has loaded up on DMen and this is not a coincidence. I suspect the drafting, trades and signings of DMen is to prepare trading Barrie sooner than later.

I agree with all that except the idea of using a Fantasy list to rank defensemen, as the list seems similar to Norris voting in terms of overvaluing points production. Both Barrie and Torey Krug, for example, are ahead of Pietrangelo. Also, Dahlin, despite never playing a game in the NHL, is #15.

This list didn't include him: #NHLTopPlayers: Top 20 Defensemen
Neither did this one: www.sportsnet.ca /hockey/nhl/definitive-ranking-nhls-top-23-defencemen-three-seasons/

 

[Patagonia]

I agree with all that except the idea of using a Fantasy list to rank defensemen, as the list seems similar to Norris voting in terms of overvaluing points production. Both Barrie and Torey Krug, for example, are ahead of Pietrangelo. Also, Dahlin, despite never playing a game in the NHL, is #15.

This list didn't include him: #NHLTopPlayers: Top 20 Defensemen
Neither did this one: www.sportsnet.ca /hockey/nhl/definitive-ranking-nhls-top-23-defencemen-three-seasons/

I agree this is not a perfect list, but a guide +/- on the approx value to place on Barrie to discuss salary.

If demands begin at $8M+, Sakic ends any further discussions and trade Barrie.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I hope people don't turn on Girard next year. The expectations are too damn high.

Pfffft Girard has nothing on Makar.


If Cale doesn't come in and immediately become Canadian Karlsson half of our fan base will be calling for his head.

 

[klozge]

Pfffft Girard has nothing on Makar.


If Cale doesn't come in and immediately become Canadian Karlsson half of our fan base will be calling for his head.

Cale "Could have been Karlsson" Makar. No pressure.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Except there's a salary cap and if they all develop like we hope they do we can't afford long-term to keep all them plus Girard, EJ and Zadorov. And if we're going to lose one of those guys eventually, I'd go with Barrie because he looks to be the worst of the bunch defensively. EJ would be next because he's oldest but his leadership presence and 12 team NTC make him a less appealing option to trade.

After having seen the defenses we’ve rolled out over the last 10 years I’d much rather run the risk of having too many good players on the backend and be forced to make a move than play it safe cap wise and get burnt before we truly know what we have in 2 prospects. If Makar and Timmins both become so good that they force EJ or Barrie out than that’s fantastic.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Pfffft Girard has nothing on Makar.


If Cale doesn't come in and immediately become Canadian Karlsson half of our fan base will be calling for his head.

Don’t forget about Timmins, he’s a surefire top 4 guy the minute he touches nhl ice.

 

[MarkT]

After having seen the defenses we’ve rolled out over the last 10 years I’d much rather run the risk of having too many good players on the backend and be forced to make a move than play it safe cap wise and get burnt before we truly know what we have in 2 prospects. If Makar and Timmins both become so good that they force EJ or Barrie out than that’s fantastic.

Barrie won't make a difference to that. Without him we still have Zadorov, EJ, Girard and Cole as a top 4, which I'm quite happy with. And between Timmins, Makar, and Meloche, I think we have a good chance of at least one of them ending up as a very good player.

Honestly though I'm on board with the "trade Barrie" idea mostly because I'm convinced he does the team almost as much harm (with his poor defensive play) as good (with his elite offensive play) and the team would be better off with players getting his minutes and cap space who help the team less but also hurt the team less. I'm convinced that before too long we'll be a cap team, and when that happens I'd rather not have Barrie as one of our highest paid players.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Barrie won't make a difference to that. Without him we still have Zadorov, EJ, Girard and Cole as a top 4, which I'm quite happy with. And between Timmins, Makar, and Meloche, I think we have a good chance of at least one of them ending up as a very good player.

Honestly though I'm on board with the "trade Barrie" idea mostly because I'm convinced he does the team almost as much harm (with his poor defensive play) as good (with his elite offensive play) and the team would be better off with players getting his minutes and cap space who help the team less but also hurt the team less. I'm convinced that before too long we'll be a cap team, and when that happens I'd rather not have Barrie as one of our highest paid players.

I’d much rather Barrie be in our top 4 long term than Cole... Cole isn’t even a top 4 guy. I’ll just leave it at, I’m against betting the farm that prospects will come in and be as good as everyone is expecting in 2-3 seasons.

 

[henchman21]

Barrie isn’t a #1D, but I think he is a solid #2D that is elite offensively. He isn’t calable of carrying a top pairing, but pair him up with another top pairing guy and he will be able to eat up those minutes. We saw it last year when EJ went down... Barrie stepped up and played a #1 role and did well. Barrie is an underrated player here simply because some can’t get over his contract situation.

 

[ASmileyFace]

If Barrie could play like he did when EJ was down all the time I'd have very little issue paying him 7.75-8 million a year.

 

[MarkT]

Barrie isn’t a #1D, but I think he is a solid #2D that is elite offensively. He isn’t calable of carrying a top pairing, but pair him up with another top pairing guy and he will be able to eat up those minutes. We saw it last year when EJ went down... Barrie stepped up and played a #1 role and did well. Barrie is an underrated player here simply because some can’t get over his contract situation.

It couldn't be the fact that the vast majority of the time he's horrendous defensively and has shown no signs of getting better in that area. Nope. Must be his contract situation.

 

[henchman21]

It couldn't be the fact that the vast majority of the time he's horrendous defensively and has shown no signs of getting better in that area. Nope. Must be his contract situation.

Considering he isn’t horrendous defensively...

 

[MarkT]

Considering he isn’t horrendous defensively...

I'll just assume we have different definitions of what qualifies as defensive play for a defenseman.

But here's a fun stat: since Tyson Barrie joined the team, 34 different guys have played defense for the Avs. Among those 34, Barrie is 2nd in total time on ice, 3rd in even strength time on ice per game, and 27th in shorthanded time on ice per game with an average of 0.23 seconds. Now take a moment and think about the horrendous defensive cores we have had since 2011 and think about how bad defensively you'd have to be to basically never get on the ice during a penalty kill.

Also, in case you're not aware, you can't assume everyone agrees with you, then assign motives accordingly. So if everyone agreed with you that he's not horrendous defensively, then maybe I'd be "undervaluing" him based on something like his contract rather than his play. But I've told you why I value him as I do, and it's not because of his contract.

 

[ASmileyFace]

I can't believe that we are still seeing the whole "Barrie is horrendous defensively" thing around here. He has bad moments, sure. But horrendous??

I'll just assume we have different definitions of what qualifies as defensive play for a defenseman.

But here's a fun stat: since Tyson Barrie joined the team, 34 different guys have played defense for the Avs. Among those 34, Barrie is 2nd in total time on ice, 3rd in even strength time on ice per game, and 27th in shorthanded time on ice per game with an average of 0.23 seconds. Now take a moment and think about the horrendous defensive cores we have had since 2011 and think about how bad defensively you'd have to be to basically never get on the ice during a penalty kill.

I mean that just isn't his job?? When you have so many 6th-7th level guys why risk your one offensive defenseman in a PK situation, where shot blocking and positioning are more important. Barrie is best defensively when he is driving the puck up the ice.

 

[MarkT]

I can't believe that we are still seeing the whole "Barrie is horrendous defensively" thing around here. He has bad moments, sure. But horrendous??

I mean that just isn't his job?? When you have so many 6th-7th level guys why risk your one offensive defenseman in a PK situation, where shot blocking and positioning are more important. Barrie is best defensively when he is driving the puck up the ice.

Well, I'll admit he's not always horrendous, but I've completely lost count of all the times a goal against has been directly his fault every season I've watched him, and that's not counting the times a goal against was only partially his fault. But I get it, you define defensive play as what a defenseman does when he has the puck, while I define it as what he does when the other team has the puck.

 

[henchman21]

Barrie has some mistakes, but he far, far from horrendous defensively. He doesn’t play short handed because that isn’t his role and never will be.

Every single defender that has ever played hockey as countless goals that are their fault. Barrie isn’t immune, but he’s better than most on the Avs consistently.

 

[ASmileyFace]

Well, I'll admit he's not always horrendous, but I've completely lost count of all the times a goal against has been directly his fault every season I've watched him, and that's not counting the times a goal against was only partially his fault. But I get it, you define defensive play as what a defenseman does when he has the puck, while I define it as what he does when the other team has the puck.

No I don't. I said that is when Barrie is a his best. What he does without the puck matters too, and he isn't horrendous in that manner either.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I'll just assume we have different definitions of what qualifies as defensive play for a defenseman.

But here's a fun stat: since Tyson Barrie joined the team, 34 different guys have played defense for the Avs. Among those 34, Barrie is 2nd in total time on ice, 3rd in even strength time on ice per game, and 27th in shorthanded time on ice per game with an average of 0.23 seconds. Now take a moment and think about the horrendous defensive cores we have had since 2011 and think about how bad defensively you'd have to be to basically never get on the ice during a penalty kill.

Also, in case you're not aware, you can't assume everyone agrees with you, then assign motives accordingly. So if everyone agreed with you that he's not horrendous defensively, then maybe I'd be "undervaluing" him based on something like his contract rather than his play. But I've told you why I value him as I do, and it's not because of his contract.

Whoa... you’re telling me coaches have been playing towards his strenghths?

 

[MarkT]

Barrie has some mistakes, but he far, far from horrendous defensively. He doesn’t play short handed because that isn’t his role and never will be.

Every single defender that has ever played hockey as countless goals that are their fault. Barrie isn’t immune, but he’s better than most on the Avs consistently.

Playing shorthanded isn't his role because he's not good defensively (I'll back away from saying "horrendous" because that's contentious). Plenty of offensive defensemen in the league play shorthanded because they're not *only* offensive defensemen. That's what Tyson Barrie is. A pure offensive defenseman. He's not good enough defensively to be anything else.

And yeah, every player has goal against that is their fault. I'm saying I've seen it more with Barrie than with anyone else people try to claim is not bad defensively.

No I don't. I said that is when Barrie is a his best. What he does without the puck matters too, and he isn't horrendous in that manner either.

Okay, but my point is I don't count anything that happens when the Avs have the puck (including his ability to skate it out of the zone) when I talk about his defensive abilities. But since no great stats for evaluating defensive ability are available publicly (as far as I'm aware) I have no way to prove it outside of the shorthanded stat that you guys handwave away as it not being his role, as if his role has nothing to do with his ability or it's impossible to play both powerplay and penalty kill.

Oh, and I've got another stat: in his time on the team he's dead last among all 34 defensemen in +/-. He has -56, with the next worst being -25. That -56 is good for 11th worst in the entire league among defensemen since 2011. I know +/- isn't a great stat, but to be among the worst in the entire league and the worst on the team by a country mile - that says something, no?

Edit: I found this: Player Evaluation Tool (PET Chart) – BSN Denver

It rates Barrie last season as:
Goals Against: 5/10
Goals Against vs. Expected (high is bad): 6/10
Shots against: 3/10
Denied Entry Rate: 2/10
Denied Entry %: 5/10

So on the 4 purely defensive stats in these charts, Barrie is either mediocre or bad.

 

[MarkT]

Whoa... you’re telling me coaches have been playing towards his strenghths?

Yes, and not playing him to his weaknesses. That is my entire point. He's good on offense and bad on defense. Thus he gets powerplay time and not penalty kill time.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Yes, and not playing him to his weaknesses. That is my entire point. He's good on offense and bad on defense. Thus he gets powerplay time and not penalty kill time.

I don’t think anyone here has or will argue that defending is the strongest part of his game. But he’s a pure gamebreaking talent and I just find it ridiculous people are willing to just throw him to the side.

 

[MarkT]

I don’t think anyone here has or will argue that defending is the strongest part of his game. But he’s a pure gamebreaking talent and I just find it ridiculous people are willing to just throw him to the side.

Wanting to trade him to teams who will overvalue him and give us great assets in return =/= throwing him to the side.

Also, the argument isn't whether defending is the strongest part of his game. The argument is whether he's good or bad defensively.