What Will Happen with Ken Holland?

[izlez]

I agree, you should stop forgetting wins and losses. Check out the Wings' record from 2010-2013, then check out Dallas'. Then look at their records since, and compare. You'll notice one trends up, and the other doesn't. But hey, maybe you were just trying to be ironic.

Since Nill took over in Dallas:

Detroit - 316 Points
Dallas - 322 Points


One of these is obviously an example of senility and incompetence, while the other is pure genius

 

[njx9]

Since Nill took over in Dallas:

Detroit - 316 Points
Dallas - 322 Points


One of these is obviously an example of senility and incompetence, while the other is pure genius

That's not even slightly what I asked, and further, it's disingenuous to the point of outright dishonesty. Try again.

 

[jkutswings]

Since Nill took over in Dallas:

Detroit - 316 Points
Dallas - 322 Points


One of these is obviously an example of senility and incompetence, while the other is pure genius

While I don't have the yearly numbers in front of me, I'd wager that the Dallas trend is a lot more upward than the Detroit trend.

In other words, if two franchises have 300 points, but one is losing ground, while the other is gaining ground, I'd say that makes a big difference on the performance evaluation of their respective general managers.

 

[Dotter]

While I don't have the yearly numbers in front of me, I'd wager that the Dallas trend is a lot more upward than the Detroit trend.

In other words, if two franchises have 300 points, but one is losing ground, while the other is gaining ground, I'd say that makes a big difference on the performance evaluation of their respective general managers.

Dallas are tied in points with Detroit with a game in hand, also they have a -17 goal differential compared to Detroit's -10. Wings also leading in man games lost/injured.

He's doing soooo great with Dallas

 

[jkutswings]

If we're playing that game, it's safe to say that neither GM is having a good year this season.

But for the 3 full seasons that Nill has been in Dallas, the points per game for each franchise are as follows:

Detroit - 1.13 in 2013-2014; 1.29 in 2014-2015; 1.13 in 2015-2016
Dallas - 1.11 in 2013-2014; 1.12 in 2014-2015; 1.33 in 2015-2016

I like both the overall talent and the trend of the results in Texas better. Not to mention that it's a whole lot easier to find a goalie to help the Stars, than it is to find the top defenseman that Detroit desperately needs.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Looking back at the moribund and completely mediocre Dallas roster Jim Nill inherited in Dallas, and the subsequent fleecing of Boston in the Seguin trade, that's actually a move Detroit could have used too.

Shuffle off their version of Loui Eriksson out with a kid or two for Tyler Seguin and away you go.

Just had to convince Boston to trade Seguin within the division.

While I don't have the yearly numbers in front of me, I'd wager that the Dallas trend is a lot more upward than the Detroit trend.

In other words, if two franchises have 300 points, but one is losing ground, while the other is gaining ground, I'd say that makes a big difference on the performance evaluation of their respective general managers.

Not really, Dallas took a big and predictable step back this year after Nill had a brutal offseason during which he severely downgraded an already questionable defense. Dallas is a pretty nice showcase for those who think Holland has done a bad job upgrading our D. Nill has been trying to fix that team's D for years too, it just isn't easy. You find plugs like Quincey/Demers that can fill in, but long-term solutions are extremely difficult to find.

 

[njx9]

Dallas are tied in points with Detroit with a game in hand, also they have a -17 goal differential compared to Detroit's -10. Wings also leading in man games lost/injured.

He's doing soooo great with Dallas

How pathetic.

Hey, if you really want to believe that the situations over the period of time before Nill left Detroit to now are the same, it's just a damning indictment of your own analysis and ability to logically work through cause and effect. Do you, though. I wouldn't want to suggest you stop being intentionally dishonest or anything.

 

[njx9]

Nill has been trying to fix that team's D for years too

3 whole years. Holland's had nearly 20. Terrible excuse.

 

[Pavels Dog]

3 whole years. Holland's had nearly 20. Terrible excuse.

Well he drafted Kronwall 16 years ago which was a solid pick.

 

[Dotter]

He also landed Danny Dekeyser for free.

 

[Stephen]

Just had to convince Boston to trade Seguin within the division.

Weren't the Wings still in the West that year?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Weren't the Wings still in the West that year?

It was the summer before they moved East, I assume all the re-alignment stuff was official by that point (though my memory's hazy).

 

[jkutswings]

He also landed Danny Dekeyser for free.

And then added him to the long list of overslotted players.

 

[The Zermanator]

He also landed Danny Dekeyser for free.

Wow, he must have moved Heaven and Earth to land the Michigan-born kid who grew up a Wings fan.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

When is the last time Holland made a trade that resulted in the improvement of the future of this team. I am struggling to remember honestly.

Well the last time he made a good trade was the Brad Stuart rental trade going into the 2008 playoffs. The last time he made a significant trade was the Kozlov for Hasek trade from the summer of 2001. People gave Cheveldayoff a lot of criticism for being conservative, but he's got nothing on Holland, who used to be able to rest on the laurels of being arguably the best drafting GM in the league, but when that fell off, so did his laurels.

 

[KJoe88]

3 whole years. Holland's had nearly 20. Terrible excuse.

Three years is a long time with that core.

Stop acting so self righteous in thinking you're right about everything.

Holland lost Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, and Fischer prior due to his heart problems.

Dallas should've recovered by now. They weren't even in the same dire situation as the Wings and their defense overall still sucks.

Plain and simple: Yzerman and Nill are also failures.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

3 whole years. Holland's had nearly 20. Terrible excuse.

Technichally. Holland has had only like 4-5 years while still trying to be competitive.

 

[jkutswings]

Three years is a long time with that core.

Stop acting so self righteous in thinking you're right about everything.

Holland lost Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, and Fischer prior due to his heart problems.

Dallas should've recovered by now. They weren't even in the same dire situation as the Wings and their defense overall still sucks.

Plain and simple: Yzerman and Nill are also failures.

I would call a GM a failure if he mismanaged a roster until it was clear that their window of championship contention was over, and another rebuild was imminent.

Tampa has definitely not yet reached that state.
Dallas is debatable.
Detroit is a slam dunk for Rebuild City.
YMMV.

 

[Winger98]

Wow, he must have moved Heaven and Earth to land the Michigan-born kid who grew up a Wings fan.

Personal connections seem to have played a larger role in player's decisions since the CBA. We all know the Suter/Parise thing. Boyle went to NYR because he had friends there. Niskanen went to Washington largely to stay with a coach he got along well with. Wasn't Stralman friends with Hedman before signing in TB?

The real failure is the state of michigan not producing enough great hockey players who want to come home.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Wow, he must have moved Heaven and Earth to land the Michigan-born kid who grew up a Wings fan.

I know pretty much my thinking as well, It was an obvious choice that Danny DeKeyser was going to play for his home town Detroit Red Wings. So really Holland didn't do any wonders there he loves his Michigan kids. Hence giving Glendening that ridiculous contract.

 

[njx9]

Technichally. Holland has had only like 4-5 years while still trying to be competitive.

That's not 'technically' anything. He's had nearly 20 years of being the team's GM. We're looking at the last six - 3 years before Nill and 3 years of Nill, for both teams. It's clear which team is trending in which direction.

Stop acting so self righteous in thinking you're right about everything.

I'm not having a conversation with someone who's best argument is calling me names. But hey, keep redefining the word 'dire' - if you say it enough times, everyone might forget that a perrennial playoff team coming off a Cup run doesn't fit any version of the definition of the word.

But again, I'm stoked that no one wants to address the actual question. Dallas is clearly trending up over the last six years, half of which involved Nill. If that's a failure, the board cheerleaders (who can't handle anything negative said about the team) would probably faint if they heard what you folks think of Holland's last six years.

 

[obey86]

Using this board's logics the Stars should blow it up because they aren't good enough to win the cup right now (currently out of the playoffs last I looked) and they won't be bad enough to draft the elite defenseman they need to put them over the top. Only way to get those pieces is to tank. They should trade Seguin and Ben before they decline.

 

[Frk It]

Using this board's logics the Stars should blow it up because they aren't good enough to win the cup right now (currently out of the playoffs last I looked) and they won't be bad enough to draft the elite players they need to put them over the top. Only way to get those pieces is to tank.

Except they don't need to be bad to acquire elite players, because they already actually have elite players.

So no, that logic would not apply.

 

[obey86]

Except they don't need to be bad to acquire elite players, because they already actually have elite players.

So no, that logic would not apply.

They have no defense. Only way to improve the defense is to tank. That's what everyone tells me. They are going to waste Benn and Seguin without having a defense because they aren't bad enough to get that defense. Might as well just blow it up IMO.

Or wait, are you saying it's actually possible to draft good defensemen without top 5 picks!?

 

[Frk It]

They have no defense. Only way to improve the defense is to tank. That's what everyone tells me.

We'd be lucky if we had a top 5 pick turn into a player as good as Klingberg is. It's what I would hope Liljegren develops into, essentially.

Why don't you list an alternative to drafting high, if you have one?