What Will Happen with Ken Holland?

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

This also ignores the fact that Holland would have to step aside for Stevie to bump the guy he had groomed into the top AGM in the game aside as well. Nill wasn't gone yet, not that Holland should have been feeling heat back then, but if he was I am sure he thought the heat should be coming on the behalf of Nill first...

That was so obvious at the time too. Like 2011/2012 it was becoming real apparent that the game was starting to pass him by. So it's not even hindsight. Lots of folks were clamoring for it.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

That was so obvious at the time too. Like 2011/2012 it was becoming real apparent that the game was starting to pass him by. So it's not even hindsight. Lots of folks were clamoring for it.

You either die a hero or live long enough to become the villian.

 

[Retire91]

You either die a hero or live long enough to become the villian.

second

 

[Frk It]

That was so obvious at the time too. Like 2011/2012 it was becoming real apparent that the game was starting to pass him by. So it's not even hindsight. Lots of folks were clamoring for it.

Are you talking about replacing him with Stevie? Or replacing him with Nill?

Because 11/12 is long after Summer 2010. And Summer 2010 is when Stevie left.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Are you talking about replacing him with Stevie? Or replacing him with Nill?

Because 11/12 is long after Summer 2010. And Summer 2010 is when Stevie left.

I remember being annoyed that we let Yzerman left and then also annoyed when we let Nill left. Because one of them should have taken his job. So Summer of 10 AND summer of 12.

 

[Retire91]

Exactly and now instead of having passed the torch to capable guys who have both gone on to be successful with other teams we are stuck with the situation of, so he gets fired who replaces him. The organization not only didn't do the sensible thing, they left themselves with no sensible option. Mismanagement on top of mismanagement.

 

[Frk It]

I remember being annoyed that we let Yzerman left and then also annoyed when we let Nill left. Because one of them should have taken his job. So Summer of 10 AND summer of 12.

As someone who is very critical of Holland in 2016, I saw no reason to move on from Holland in May of 2010.

Exactly and now instead of having passed the torch to capable guys who have both gone on to be successful with other teams we are stuck with the situation of, so he gets fired who replaces him. The organization not only didn't do the sensible thing, they left themselves with no sensible option. Mismanagement on top of mismanagement.

How great of a shape would we be in with Jim Nill?

 

[Retire91]

As someone who is very critical of Holland in 2016, I saw no reason to move on from Holland in May of 2010.



How great of a shape would we be in with Jim Nill?

I would trade rosters with Dallas, nothing like starting your career off with the seguin trade

 

[InGusWeTrust]

I would trade rosters with Dallas, nothing like starting your career off with the seguin trade

And then getting real C depth with Spezza and Hemsky....Followed by Sharp. I would think that after expansion draft the main goal there is to pick up a goaltender that can stop some pucks. Hell, maybe even before the draft.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

As someone who is very critical of Holland in 2016, I saw no reason to move on from Holland in May of 2010.

Nah, and I wasn't too critical of him back then either. There were blemishes, but it wasn't a big deal like it is now. Regardless, I figured it was time for a change.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

To properly address the prompt of the thread's question:

 

[izlez]

Exactly and now instead of having passed the torch to capable guys who have both gone on to be successful with other teams we are stuck with the situation of, so he gets fired who replaces him. The organization not only didn't do the sensible thing, they left themselves with no sensible option. Mismanagement on top of mismanagement.

"Successful"

Since we have already gone over Yzerman's many accomplishments as a GM, lets go over Nill's:

(Inherited top NHL center in his prime and very highly touted young D-man)
Knocked out in first round of playoffs.
Missed Playoffs
Knocked out in second round of playoffs
Currently same amount of points in more games played than the Detroit Red Wings.


...Dude is killin' it.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

"Successful"

Since we have already gone over Yzerman's many accomplishments as a GM, lets go over Nill's:

(Traded for a top NHL center in his prime and very highly touted young D-man)
Knocked out in first round of playoffs.
Missed Playoffs
Knocked out in second round of playoffs
Currently same amount of points in more games played than the Detroit Red Wings.


...Dude is killin' it.

fixed. Also he traded for Spezza, Hemsky, and Sharp. All of who aside from this year have done fairly well down there in Dallas.

Dallas also plays in the Central. That division, albeit struggling so far this season, has been one of the strongest divisions for many years now. Also they have two goaltenders that can't stop a beach ball. So after that issue is addressed let's see what they can do.

 

[ripham23232]

"Successful"

Since we have already gone over Yzerman's many accomplishments as a GM, lets go over Nill's:

(Inherited top NHL center in his prime and very highly touted young D-man)
Knocked out in first round of playoffs.
Missed Playoffs
Knocked out in second round of playoffs
Currently same amount of points in more games played than the Detroit Red Wings.


...Dude is killin' it.

What's your barometer of success? Should they win all of the Stanley Cups all of the time? Dallas had essentially become a bottom feeder organization in the pre-Jim Nill era. He has re-shaped the roster and put the team back into the playoff mix in advance of what everyone anticipated. This year they have struggled and floundered, but also have the near the top if not the top most man-games lost to injury, plus both Benn and Seguin haven't really hit their stride coming off surgeries over the summer. There isn't a person around the league that has anything bad to say about Jim Nill, and there's a reason for that. He's done a great job building a foundation in Dallas.

When you say he inherited a top C in his prime who are you referring to? He traded for Seguin and Spezza and Benn is a LW... What highly touted defensemen do you speak of? They certainly didn't have one when Nill arrived. Klingberg was never highly touted. Honka was drafted by Nill.

 

[izlez]

What's your barometer of success? Should they win all of the Stanley Cups all of the time? Dallas had essentially become a bottom feeder organization in the pre-Jim Nill era. He has re-shaped the roster and put the team back into the playoff mix in advance of what everyone anticipated. This year they have struggled and floundered, but also have the near the top if not the top most man-games lost to injury, plus both Benn and Seguin haven't really hit their stride coming off surgeries over the summer. There isn't a person around the league that has anything bad to say about Jim Nill, and there's a reason for that. He's done a great job building a foundation in Dallas.

Apply all of this to the Detroit Red Wings. We currently have threads on firing both our coach and GM, and are praising everything about their franchises. All 3 teams are close in the standings (we've had a few injuries too, no?), fire our entire management, Yzerman and Nill are geniuses. They have a 2nd round playoff exit, they are the best GM's in the league. We have a 2nd round playoff exit, the Illitch's don't even like hockey.

When you say he inherited a top C in his prime who are you referring to? He traded for Seguin and Spezza and Benn is a LW... What highly touted defensemen do you speak of? They certainly didn't have one when Nill arrived. Klingberg was never highly touted. Honka was drafted by Nill.

Yeah, I meant Benn. He has lots of faceoffs. He's listed as a C in some places. I guess maybe he is a winger.
Yeah, I meant Klingberg. I don't care to split hairs on when he started to become highly touted. He's a good young defender that he had nothing to do with bringing to the team.




He's got big names. He's made "big" moves. He's got nothing to show for it. Somehow not having a goalie or a sound defense gets passed off as something that just happens and is not the responsibility of the GM when you have flashy names on paper.

 

[ripham23232]

Apply all of this to the Detroit Red Wings. We currently have threads on firing both our coach and GM, and are praising everything about their franchises. All 3 teams are close in the standings (we've had a few injuries too, no?), fire our entire management, Yzerman and Nill are geniuses. They have a 2nd round playoff exit, they are the best GM's in the league. We have a 2nd round playoff exit, the Illitch's don't even like hockey.

If it makes you feel better, there's a section of the fanbase in Dallas that wants Ruff fired as coach. Our injuries don't really compare to Dallas', and we haven't lost Steven Stamkos either, but yes, the Wings have lost a 3rd line center and winger for a few weeks. The difference I don't think you're accounting for is it seems the Lightning and the Stars both of plans. It doesn't look like the Red Wings do to many on the outside.

Yeah, I meant Benn. He has lots of faceoffs. He's listed as a C in some places. I guess maybe he is a winger.
Yeah, I meant Klingberg. I don't care to split hairs on when he started to become highly touted. He's a good young defender that he had nothing to do with bringing to the team.

You should care to split hairs on when he became highly-touted. And really, even accurately assessing Klingberg. Maybe it isn't coincidental Klingberg's game escalated when Nill/Ruff gave him a chance. It's starting to become quite apparent Klingberg was getting some benefit of playing on a top pairing with Goligoski and being sheltered in terms of offensive zone starts. His play has significantly dropped off since the Stars have begun relying on him to be their #1 guy.

He's got big names. He's made "big" moves. He's got nothing to show for it. Somehow not having a goalie or a sound defense gets passed off as something that just happens and is not the responsibility of the GM when you have flashy names on paper.

It's comparing apples to oranges though. Ken Holland has been a NHL GM for 20 years now, those other guys around 5 or less. Ken has the challenge of maintaining, Steve and Jim are building in hopes of maintaining. I think everyone around hockey agree both of those teams are underachieving currently, but their long term projection has them both trending up. Meanwhile, the Red Wings are flat, not even going down in hopes of going up.

It's expected here in Dallas that Nill's next step is getting a decent goaltender. The defense is a young core, and it seems the current plan is to develop that and focus on the trio of Klingberg, Honka, and Lindell around "good character" veteran guys like Oduya and Hamhuis.

At the end of the day, the unfortunate thing is two smart hockey men left the organization when an opportunity came. That's the price you pay for success though.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Yzerman and Nill don't have 75 million dollar rosters where four out of their five leading scorers are 30 or older.

The Wings are basically a Frankenstein roster that lacks any identity.

The Detroit Red Wings died the day Suter picked Minnesota over Detroit. Since then, Holland has basically been wasting everyone's time by keeping this roster on life support.

 

[njx9]

It's really hilarious that we're comparing 3 years of Jim Nill taking over a terrible hockey team to Ken Holland's 3 years of GMing the same team he's GMed for nearly two decades, and acting like it's weird that Nill's only turned them into a playoff team while ignoring the heavy downward trend Holland's "leading".

 

[ripham23232]

It's really hilarious that we're comparing 3 years of Jim Nill taking over a terrible hockey team to Ken Holland's 3 years of GMing the same team he's GMed for nearly two decades, and acting like it's weird that Nill's only turned them into a playoff team while ignoring the heavy downward trend Holland's "leading".

Yes.

 

[Dotter]

Yzerman and Nill don't have 75 million dollar rosters where four out of their five leading scorers are 30 or older.

The Wings are basically a Frankenstein roster that lacks any identity.

The Detroit Red Wings died the day Suter picked Minnesota over Detroit. Since then, Holland has basically been wasting everyone's time by keeping this roster on life support.

Posted this in another thread. Think it applies here too:

"Indeed. This sure isn't the 1998 Detroit Red Wings anymore. I guess it had to come to end sometime, right? I mean isn't this what the NHL wanted? Parity?

Despite Wings being bad, they are tied in points with TBL and only 5 points out of contention. I don't think it gets more parity than that, folks.

I guess the run can't go on forever, especially after the NHL/Bettman stack the deck to make sure teams like Detroit fans suffer, while ownership is still making billions.

Should Bettman make it so middling teams lose massive financial gain for owners who are just trying to bank it in? I feel like ownership has 'cruise control' set and are only interested in cashing checks from living off the waves of past success.

Everyone keeps blaming Ken Holland, but the true villain here is Mike Ilitch and company. The Ilitch family demand Ken Holland to manage the team this way, and if he doesn't, they will find someone else who will.

To the people who really truly believe this is Ken Holland's fault, then riddle me this. Why does he still have a job? The Ilitch family ARE NOT afraid to fire GMs. Look back to no further to Dave Dombrowski.

So if Ilitch's don't want the franchise to make billions, want Ken Holland to sink the team for picks (and HUGE massive financial loss from ticket sales), then why does he still have a job?

One reason, because Ken Holland is running the team exactly like he is instructed to do. Blame ownership."

 

[izlez]

Well, I guess it's nice to know that GM's are viewed the same way as players on HFBoards.

Forget actual results and wins and losses: The newer they are, the better they are

 

[Retire91]

I can agree with that, its very likely Holland's marching orders are playoffs or else. And ownership also passed on the opportunity to put someone in younger and hungrier when it was clearly time to Ken to promote himself out of the way. Ownership has forsaken the fan base with mediocre hockey. I thought this was hockeytown. Not anymore.

There is the possibility of some senility and incompetence too. Mike is probably too old to be making major directional decisions on the team and who knows what the kids want with the team. The kids might see the team as a paycheck and not really have the passion. Second and Third generation money typically thinks a lot different than normal people. Very little common sense or grounds in reality is shared from the parents that actually made the money.

 

[Stephen]

Looking back at the moribund and completely mediocre Dallas roster Jim Nill inherited in Dallas, and the subsequent fleecing of Boston in the Seguin trade, that's actually a move Detroit could have used too.

Shuffle off their version of Loui Eriksson out with a kid or two for Tyler Seguin and away you go.

 

[njx9]

Well, I guess it's nice to know that GM's are viewed the same way as players on HFBoards.

Forget actual results and wins and losses: The newer they are, the better they are

I agree, you should stop forgetting wins and losses. Check out the Wings' record from 2010-2013, then check out Dallas'. Then look at their records since, and compare. You'll notice one trends up, and the other doesn't. But hey, maybe you were just trying to be ironic.

 

[Retire91]

When is the last time Holland made a trade that resulted in the improvement of the future of this team. I am struggling to remember honestly.