What Will Happen with Ken Holland?

[Pavels Dog]

We'd be lucky if we had a top 5 pick turn into a player as good as Klingberg is. It's what I would hope Liljegren develops into, essentially.

Why don't you list an alternative to drafting high, if you have one?

Klingberg isn't all that great. If anything I would look for someone like Hronek or Saarijarvi to turn into that kind of player, in the top 5 I would certainly want a more well-rounded d-man closer to the Ekblad/Hedman/Doughty mold.

 

[Frk It]

Klingberg isn't all that great. If anything I would look for someone like Hronek or Saarijarvi to turn into that kind of player, in the top 5 I would certainly want a more well-rounded d-man closer to the Ekblad/Hedman/Doughty mold.

Ideally, I'd agree. To get something those guys you'd probably have to be top 3, not just top 5 though.

I think Klingberg's just having a rough season, he's a pretty damn good player.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Ideally, I'd agree. To get something those guys you'd probably have to be top 3, not just top 5 though.

I think Klingberg's just having a rough season, he's a pretty damn good player.

Even at his best, he was never even remotely good defensively. Basically Erik Karlsson but worse offensively AND defensively. Which is a pretty nice player but won't carry your D, more of a guy you want as the #2 next to a strong two-way D-man.
The way we're trending we could be bottom 3. Or get lucky with the lottery. But either way I don't think you want someone with too many obvious flaws if you're picking top 5.

 

[Frk It]

Even at his best, he was never even remotely good defensively. Basically Erik Karlsson but worse offensively AND defensively. Which is a pretty nice player but won't carry your D, more of a guy you want as the #2 next to a strong two-way D-man.
The way we're trending we could be bottom 3. Or get lucky with the lottery. But either way I don't think you want someone with too many obvious flaws if you're picking top 5.

Fair enough. I don't think there are a lot of concerns with Liljegren's defensive game so we should be ok there. I've read that he's struggled a bit with the forechecking in the SHL, but he's also been battling Mono so I don't know how much that plays into it.

If we don't buy into his all-around game, maybe we opt for Hischier or even a guy like Pettersson who is doing very well in the Allsvenskan. Although obviously finding a #1 defenseman is the biggest need, so hopefully they like Liljegren the best. Hakan has likely seen him a lot and I'd trust his judgment on that more than anyone else.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You don't even have to be an average team to make the playoffs. It really *isn't* that difficult.

The thing is, most teams aren't just trying to 'make it'. They're trying to either build for sustained success, or to actually contend for something. Across the league, we're the only ones doing this 'just make it and then it's perfectly OK to lose badly' thing. Are some teams horrifically mismanaged? Absolutely. But let's not pretend that Toronto, for instance, couldn't have just gone out and signed a bunch of mediocre veterans (like we did and have) and eked out enough points to make it, if that was all they cared about.

Read what was said again... The Wings are the only team to make the playoffs every year since the cap. Not whether that is hard in general, but quite clearly that they are the lone franchise out of 30 to do it which would appear to provide ample evidence that what they have accomplished isn't some weird mistake.

Lots of teams have goals of making the playoffs, actually more than have legitimate Cup hopes. I want to get back to being one of the five teams that can really say that entering the year but that isn't all I care about. I want the Wings to try, I am proud of the streak, it is something three teams in the history of the league can look to in terms of a streak like that. It isn't a little thing and it shouldn't be looked at with disdain. It certainly wasn't easy or lucky either.

 

[Dotter]

Re:visiting the past...

Could you imagine how great Ken Holland would look right now had he offered sheet Shea Weber like many here wanted?

Shew-wee...

"Ken Holland has no spine, he plays it too safe"...

Shea Weber + possible recapture penalty for:

Mantha
Larkin
Svechnikov
Cholowski

"Get 'r done, kenny"

To me, as history has proven over and over and over again... it's never good to listen to armchair GM's plans how to build a successful future.

Then look at how great Stevie F Yzerman is doing with the Lightning, now that is how GMing is suppose to be done, right?

Inheret franchise players
Trade all-star he inhereted for player
Sign Filippua to too much
Still suck with all that talent to draft top 3 (Drouin)
Never win the cup
And be mddile of the pack/out of playoffs midway 2016 with all that talent

Honestly, Yzerman is proving to extremely overrated.

Wings won too much and now they suck. Offer sheeting Shea Weber would have made it so much worse. There's no "deal" Ken Holland "whiffed" on that would have helped this team to cup contender. The new cool complaint is he doesn't try to purposely "tank" like Edmonton has done the past 10 years?

Personally, my biggest front office criticism is they became medicre at drafting under Jim Nill's watch (might be turning around now, though). And Hakan is human, probably should just retire at this point.

Keeping the playoff streak alive, I get. That more than likely (from the data and research I've done) is pushed by ownership anyhow. It's not my money to lose, but I get it.

To me, Ken Holland is probably the best thing about the Detroit Red Wings. It use to be ownership, but I think they are part of the problem now with the new arena being built and them wanting to sustain the dollar as long as they can over winning

 

[Flowah]

We're armchairing Holland but apparently you're not armchairing Yzerman.

Makes sense.

 

[Dotter]

We're armchairing Holland but apparently you're not armchairing Yzerman.

Makes sense.

As long as he never comes over here, I'm good.

 

[Claypool]

Using this board's logics the Stars should blow it up because they aren't good enough to win the cup right now (currently out of the playoffs last I looked) and they won't be bad enough to draft the elite defenseman they need to put them over the top. Only way to get those pieces is to tank. They should trade Seguin and Ben before they decline.

Imagine this board's reaction if Holland spent a #10 overall pick on a player who doesn't even want to play in the NHL.

I honestly think the Stars are in horrible shape going forward. Nill probably felt pressure to try and win with Benn and Seguin and went out to get guys like Spezza, Hemsky, Sharp, Hamhuis, Oduya, Niemi etc. Now their depth is old and broken. They got rid of guys like Goligoski, Demers, Jokipakka (who they traded to get Russell, and let walk).

 

[TheMule93]

No, this boards logic if we were the stars would not be to blow it up.

They have two elite players that are in the early/middle stages of their prime.

In 2013 we had 2 elite players at the end of their primes

If you can't see the difference the idk what to tell ya

 

[Flowah]

As long as he never comes over here, I'm good.

That doesn't even begin to make sense as a relevant response to what I said.

 

[Frk It]

Re:visiting the past...

Could you imagine how great Ken Holland would look right now had he offered sheet Shea Weber like many here wanted?

Shew-wee...

"Ken Holland has no spine, he plays it too safe"...

Shea Weber + possible recapture penalty for:

Mantha
Larkin
Svechnikov
Cholowski

"Get 'r done, kenny"

To me, as history has proven over and over and over again... it's never good to listen to armchair GM's plans how to build a successful future.

Then look at how great Stevie F Yzerman is doing with the Lightning, now that is how GMing is suppose to be done, right?

Inheret franchise players
Trade all-star he inhereted for player
Sign Filippua to too much
Still suck with all that talent to draft top 3 (Drouin)
Never win the cup
And be mddile of the pack/out of playoffs midway 2016 with all that talent

Honestly, Yzerman is proving to extremely overrated.

Wings won too much and now they suck. Offer sheeting Shea Weber would have made it so much worse. There's no "deal" Ken Holland "whiffed" on that would have helped this team to cup contender. The new cool complaint is he doesn't try to purposely "tank" like Edmonton has done the past 10 years?

Personally, my biggest front office criticism is they became medicre at drafting under Jim Nill's watch (might be turning around now, though). And Hakan is human, probably should just retire at this point.

Keeping the playoff streak alive, I get. That more than likely (from the data and research I've done) is pushed by ownership anyhow. It's not my money to lose, but I get it.

To me, Ken Holland is probably the best thing about the Detroit Red Wings. It use to be ownership, but I think they are part of the problem now with the new arena being built and them wanting to sustain the dollar as long as they can over winning

You realize Holland was pursuing an offer sheet to Weber but Philly beat him to the punch, right? He even visited here.

 

[Claypool]

You realize Holland was pursuing an offer sheet to Weber but Philly beat him to the punch, right? He even visited here.

Pretty sure Detroit pursuing him via trade, not through an offersheet. Holland has been pretty public about why offersheets are dumb. The team always matches.

 

[Frk It]

Pretty sure Detroit pursuing him via trade, not through an offersheet. Holland has been pretty public about why offersheets are dumb. The team always matches.

This suggests it was an offer sheet.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.mlive.com/articles/8705948/red_wings_pursued_defenseman_s.amp

Not sure if link will work, copied from iPhone. If not just google 'Shea Weber offer sheet red wings' and click on the first link.

 

[Claypool]

This suggests it was an offer sheet.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.mlive.com/articles/8705948/red_wings_pursued_defenseman_s.amp

Not sure if link will work, copied from iPhone.

Well of course you make calls to his agent to find out what he's looking for and his interest in playing for Detroit. If Shea Weber is talking to other teams you want to be there, too. Holland has never made an offersheet, even when there have been plenty of other great RFA defensemen available over the years. The talks never became serious enough that Holland even made an offer. They weren't "beaten out" by Philly.

 

[jkutswings]

If there wasn't the possible recapture, I'd trade those collection of forwards for Weber NOW, let alone back then. Shea is still an elite player, and there's no guarantee that any of those forwards will be steady first liners, let alone perennial All-Stars.

I know we love to overvalue our own prospects, but come on now.

 

[Frk It]

Well of course you make calls to his agent to find out what he's looking for and his interest in playing for Detroit. If Shea Weber is talking to other teams you want to be there, too. Holland has never made an offersheet, even when there have been plenty of other great RFA defensemen available over the years. The talks never became serious enough that Holland even made an offer. They weren't "beaten out" by Philly.

They were serious enough for him to come out for a visit. Neither of us can say if they had the intent of actually putting together an offer sheet or not. But it's clear the interest was there.

So for Dotter suggesting it was something HF was calling for, but Holland wasnt interested in... I'd call that claim false.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Well of course you make calls to his agent to find out what he's looking for and his interest in playing for Detroit. If Shea Weber is talking to other teams you want to be there, too. Holland has never made an offersheet, even when there have been plenty of other great RFA defensemen available over the years. The talks never became serious enough that Holland even made an offer. They weren't "beaten out" by Philly.

i think it's likely that he hasn't made an offer sheet but we don't can't know for sure.

 

[Claypool]

If there wasn't the possible recapture, I'd trade those collection of forwards for Weber NOW, let alone back then. Shea is still an elite player, and there's no guarantee that any of those forwards will be steady first liners, let alone perennial All-Stars.

I know we love to overvalue our own prospects, but come on now.

There wouldn't be a situation or price that Nashville wouldn't match. Shea Weber wasn't coming to Detroit even if Holland did all the work negotiating the contract. He'd be making David Polie's life easier doing his work for him.

Weber wanted a cap circumvention deal before the new CBA went into place that put a maximum on contract length.

 

[Dotter]

They were serious enough for him to come out for a visit. Neither of us can say if they had the intent of actually putting together an offer sheet or not. But it's clear the interest was there.

So for Dotter suggesting it was something HF was calling for, but Holland wasnt interested in... I'd call that claim false.

I followed this back then and there was never an offersheet by Ken Holland. Not sure where you are getting your information.

So because KH may have talked to him, that means he did? Don't you want your GM to talk to star players and poke some interest? What if Weber signed a 2 year deal and when he became a FA, Ken had already showed interest in Shea, meaning he planted a seed. You constantly need to be thinking ahead in this sport.

It never panned out, but that doesn't mean you sit dormant.

 

[jkutswings]

There wouldn't be a situation or price that Nashville wouldn't match. Shea Weber wasn't coming to Detroit even if Holland did all the work negotiating the contract. He'd be making David Polie's life easier doing his work for him.

Weber wanted a cap circumvention deal before the new CBA went into place that put a maximum on contract length.

Even if that was the case, that wasn't the point of my post. The implication I responded to was that the indicated package of players would have been a foolish overpayment for Weber, and I strongly disagree.

 

[Frk It]

I followed this back then and there was never an offersheet by Ken Holland. Not sure where you are getting your information.

So because KH may have talked to him, that means he did? Don't you want your GM to talk to star players and poke some interest? What if Weber signed a 2 year deal and when he became a FA, Ken had already showed interest in Shea, meaning he planted a seed. You constantly need to be thinking ahead in this sport.

It never panned out, but that doesn't mean you sit dormant.

I didn't say there was. Just forget it.

 

[Syckle78]

This suggests it was an offer sheet.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.mlive.com/articles/8705948/red_wings_pursued_defenseman_s.amp

Not sure if link will work, copied from iPhone. If not just google 'Shea Weber offer sheet red wings' and click on the first link.

I don't think there was ever an actual offer sheet. From what I recall Holland reached out and the Weber camp said he wasn't interested in signing here.

 

[Syckle78]

Re:visiting the past...

Could you imagine how great Ken Holland would look right now had he offered sheet Shea Weber like many here wanted?

Shew-wee...

"Ken Holland has no spine, he plays it too safe"...

Shea Weber + possible recapture penalty for:

Mantha
Larkin
Svechnikov
Cholowski

"Get 'r done, kenny"

To me, as history has proven over and over and over again... it's never good to listen to armchair GM's plans how to build a successful future.

Then look at how great Stevie F Yzerman is doing with the Lightning, now that is how GMing is suppose to be done, right?

Inheret franchise players
Trade all-star he inhereted for player
Sign Filippua to too much
Still suck with all that talent to draft top 3 (Drouin)
Never win the cup
And be mddile of the pack/out of playoffs midway 2016 with all that talent

Honestly, Yzerman is proving to extremely overrated.

Wings won too much and now they suck. Offer sheeting Shea Weber would have made it so much worse. There's no "deal" Ken Holland "whiffed" on that would have helped this team to cup contender. The new cool complaint is he doesn't try to purposely "tank" like Edmonton has done the past 10 years?

Personally, my biggest front office criticism is they became medicre at drafting under Jim Nill's watch (might be turning around now, though). And Hakan is human, probably should just retire at this point.

Keeping the playoff streak alive, I get. That more than likely (from the data and research I've done) is pushed by ownership anyhow. It's not my money to lose, but I get it.

To me, Ken Holland is probably the best thing about the Detroit Red Wings. It use to be ownership, but I think they are part of the problem now with the new arena being built and them wanting to sustain the dollar as long as they can over winning

I would trade every single one of those four players to have had Weber to play with datsyuk and hank at that time. We wouldn't be worrying about a recapture because we wouldn't of traded him.

 

[Frk It]

I don't think there was ever an actual offer sheet. From what I recall Holland reached out and the Weber camp said he wasn't interested in signing here.

The quote you posted was in response to Claypool saying we were interested in a trade and not an offer sheet.

I was just talking about the interest. Obviously if they carried through with an actual offer sheet we all would have heard about it. That's not what I was saying.