What Will Happen with Ken Holland?

[Winger98]

So let's bring things to the present. We are currently not in a playoff position, and we are not trending that way either. We do not have a #1 defenseman on the roster, and it's arguable we do not have a #1 center on the roster.

By all means you are allowed to appreciate the streak, and Holland's legacy as well. But the past is the past, and the present is the present. How do you feel about where we are sitting right now?

no offense Frk It, but my desire to see the Wings keep kids in the lineup and to trade impending UFA for picks/prospects has been stated pretty consistently for awhile now. For the past three seasons I've considered us a bubble team and I still consider us a bubble team.

On the one hand, I'm not a fan of Holland's keeping so many vets and extending middling players (Helm & Gator, to be specific) to such long deals. At the same time, given a greater emphasis on the draft and likely moving up the draft into better picking spots, I have a hard time arguing against Holland's eye for talent.

 

[Frk It]

no offense Frk It, but my desire to see the Wings keep kids in the lineup and to trade impending UFA for picks/prospects has been stated pretty consistently for awhile now. For the past three seasons I've considered us a bubble team and I still consider us a bubble team.

On the one hand, I'm not a fan of Holland's keeping so many vets and extending middling players (Helm & Gator, to be specific) to such long deals. At the same time, given a greater emphasis on the draft and likely moving up the draft into better picking spots, I have a hard time arguing against Holland's eye for talent.

No offense taken, whatsoever.

Your last sentence is why I would say he should remain a part of the organization. I think he should moved be an advisor role, specifically on scouting and the draft. But I would like someone new to take on the GM role. Someone who isn't as conservative, and has a more progressive way of thinking.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Steve Yzerman inherited a team with two home run top-2 picks. He has no championships. His team is tied with the red wings despite many other high draft picks.

It's funny that people think half the teams in the league set out to tank in every season. Like, people work their whole careers to become top of their profession, whether it be head coach or GM, and then purposefully throw it down the drain in the homes that they can pull it out of the nose dive just in time to save their job.

Yet another thread that boils down to "Holland is by far the worst GM in the league because he is too good at being a GM"

No, that's just your reductive analysis of it.

I feel like I've had to say it a million times here, but there are more options out there other than what Holland is doing or tanking.


And Tampa Bay under Yzerman has what, one finals appearance and two conference finals? The gap is not that large to what Holland has done post lockout.

 

[Dotter]

Steve Yzerman inherited a team with two home run top-2 picks. He has no championships. His team is tied with the red wings despite many other high draft picks.

It's funny that people think half the teams in the league set out to tank in every season. Like, people work their whole careers to become top of their profession, whether it be head coach or GM, and then purposefully throw it down the drain in the homes that they can pull it out of the nose dive just in time to save their job.

Yet another thread that boils down to "Holland is by far the worst GM in the league because he is too good at being a GM"

I'm basically in agreement with what you said. Yzerman's club should have won atleast 1 (if not 2) cups by now and be rivaling CHI each year. Instead they missed the playoffs and drafted top 3 overall for Drouin. To me that's a HUGE fail.

I do think Yzerman is a good GM, but I do think if he took over here, he would have become another "Babcock vs Blashill" situation. Remember when everyone here said Blashill was going to be greatness and Babcock was to "stubborn" and wasn't willing to "get with the times" and bad with the kids in terms of coaching, and Wings needed someone fresh? Haha, and now everyone wants Blashill gone. He's literally the scape goat. I think the very same thing would have happened to Steve Yzerman had he took over.

Good for Yzerman to inherit a team with top overall talent on his team to help him look like a top level GM in the league right now. Even TBL fans sometimes criticize Yzerman and were baffled how he handled certain situations. I think he's extremely overrated just like Blashill was before he became head coach here. "grass is greener" syndrome is real, folks!

 

[Dotter]

No, that's just your reductive analysis of it.

I feel like I've had to say it a million times here, but there are more options out there other than what Holland is doing or tanking.


And Tampa Bay under Yzerman has what, one finals appearance and two conference finals? The gap is not that large to what Holland has done post lockout.

You say that like Yzerman didn't inherent Hedman, one of the top goal scorers in the world, and failed for Drouin. Plus having MSL at his disposal for trade. That's just the stuff at the top of my head.

Give Holland those assets, and Wings atleast 1 more cup... maybe 2. But for sure, without a doubt KH would have 1 more cup ring post lockout. Stamkos would for sure would have been the difference maker against 2009 Pens. BOOM, another cup ring.

Yzerman has no cup rings as a GM despite having this elite talent gifted to him. To me that's a failure. Even TBL fans are disappointed they don't have cups with this line of talent and have question some of SFYs past decisions.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I'm basically in agreement with what you said. Yzerman's club should have won atleast 1 (if not 2) cups by now and be rivaling CHI each year. Instead they missed the playoffs and drafted top 3 overall for Drouin. To me that's a HUGE fail.

I do think Yzerman is a good GM, but I do think if he took over here, he would have become another "Babcock vs Blashill" situation. Remember when everyone here said Blashill was going to be greatness and Babcock was to "stubborn" and wasn't willing to "get with the times" and bad with the kids in terms of coaching, and Wings needed someone fresh? Haha, and now everyone wants Blashill gone. He's literally the scape goat. I think the very same thing would have happened to Steve Yzerman had he took over.

Good for Yzerman to inherit a team with top overall talent on his team to help him look like a top level GM in the league right now. Even TBL fans sometimes criticize Yzerman and were baffled how he handled certain situations. I think he's extremely overrated just like Blashill was before he became head coach here. "grass is greener" syndrome is real, folks!

Yzerman I believe has done a great job because he never let Victor Hedman come anywhere close to FA... he kept Stamkos at his price... and he's picked up several great core pieces (Kucherov, Palat, Johnson, Bishop, Vasilesky) for not very much investment.

People get too hung up on the "not winning Cups" aspect. All the GM can do is put his team in a position. The Lightning have been in a great position the last couple years. I mean, if Tomas Tatar lowers his stick an inch and redirects Helm's cross-ice pass into the net instead of letting it hit the boards in game 7, Tampa gets drummed out by Detroit, most likely.

And people would have hailed that as a huge failure on Yzerman's part... even though it came down to one inch in one game long after his input was done.

 

[Retire91]

2 Things

1) It was very justifiable to keep Holland over Yzerman back in 2010. Holland still was making very smart moves at the time-- it was before the Cleary fiasco, and the Nyquist burying, and a lot of the other questionable stuff. If you want to say we should have moved on to Yzerman in 2010, I'd say that is a 99% hindsight-driven argument based on what each have done the last 5 years.

2) I see no reason why Yzerman would leave his current situation in Tampa anytime soon, and if you are expecting that to happen I think you are getting your hopes up for nothing.

It's not hind sight for me. Yzerman was a clear decision in my mind 100%. I can't have been the only one. Holland had only one way to go at that time and it was down and he's done just that. Yzerman has turned into one of the best and most savvy GM's in the league which was completely predictable. This organization is going to try to make up for missing out on Yzerman for the next 20 years and it was completely avoidable.

Not having cups is ridiculous he has a good draft record, outstanding trade record, and great at retaining key FA. He's taken the team to the finals. I can only imagine the complete 180 this team would have right now under his lead the last 6 years. His only knock is a couple of crappy contracts like Carle. Heck he hadles contravercy well also like St. Louis and Droiun.

 

[jkutswings]

You say that like Yzerman didn't inherent Hedman, one of the top goal scorers in the world, and failed for Drouin. Plus having MSL at his disposal for trade. That's just the stuff at the top of my head.

Give Holland those assets, and Wings atleast 1 more cup... maybe 2. But for sure, without a doubt KH would have 1 more cup ring post lockout. Stamkos would for sure would have been the difference maker against 2009 Pens. BOOM, another cup ring.

Yzerman has no cup rings as a GM despite having this elite talent gifted to him. To me that's a failure. Even TBL fans are disappointed they don't have cups with this line of talent and have question some of SFYs past decisions.

Give Holland those assets, and he buries the high draft picks in Grand Rapids until either they run out of waiver options, or there are multiple injuries, or they burn up the AHL to such a ridiculous degree that it forces his hand. And even then you could still see things like plugging them in on a lower line/pairing, with a very short leash (because we HAVE seen those things).

Saying an already championship caliber team would further improve with elite draft assets is pointless, because the two are almost always mutually exclusive. But rest assured, over the last 5 years, padding The Streak with maximum risk aversion has been their one and only priority.

What SHOULD happen: Retire and leave the organization.

What WILL happen: GM until he pushes up daisies.

 

[Frk It]

It's not hind sight for me. Yzerman was a clear decision in my mind 100%. I can't have been the only one. Holland had only one way to go at that time and it was down and he's done just that. Yzerman has turned into one of the best and most savvy GM's in the league which was completely predictable. This organization is going to try to make up for missing out on Yzerman for the next 20 years and it was completely avoidable.

Not having cups is ridiculous he has a good draft record, outstanding trade record, and great at retaining key FA. He's taken the team to the finals. I can only imagine the complete 180 this team would have right now under his lead the last 6 years. His only knock is a couple of crappy contracts like Carle. Heck he hadles contravercy well also like St. Louis and Droiun.

Even if you say that Yzerman being successful was predictable, which personally I think is at least somewhat aided by hindsight. Holland falling off as much as he has was very unpredictable during that time. We both joined in 2010, so I'm sure you can remember the perception was much different of him back then. As it deserved to be.

He was 2 years removed from back to back Cup appearances in 2010. The team was still in good shape.

That would basically be like the Blackhawks moving on from Stan Bowman right now. You don't make that kind of drastic move like that just because.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

You say that like Yzerman didn't inherent Hedman, one of the top goal scorers in the world, and failed for Drouin. Plus having MSL at his disposal for trade. That's just the stuff at the top of my head.

Give Holland those assets, and Wings atleast 1 more cup... maybe 2. But for sure, without a doubt KH would have 1 more cup ring post lockout. Stamkos would for sure would have been the difference maker against 2009 Pens. BOOM, another cup ring.

Yzerman has no cup rings as a GM despite having this elite talent gifted to him. To me that's a failure. Even TBL fans are disappointed they don't have cups with this line of talent and have question some of SFYs past decisions.

Why not have Holland winning 5 more Cups? It's a fictional universe you're talking about anyway, why not go for it?

"Having MSL at his disposal for a trade?"

That's a rather rosy perception of how that played out. It's actually one of Yzerman's better moments as a GM that he got any return for MSL when put in that position.

I'm not saying Holland is a bad GM, or that Yzerman is a better GM. But I think it's become clear the last several seasons that Holland is no longer the right GM for what the Red Wings need.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The way people talk about Holland I'm reminded of the opinion that swedes had of Lars Lagerback, the former manager of the swedish national soccer team.
He was too conservative they said. They wanted someone fresh, someone who was more aggressive and made bold strategies. Lagerback didn't win tournaments, but he always managed to get Sweden to qualify for the big tournaments (sort of like always making the playoffs). And Sweden was always a solid, strong team.

But they sacked him. And went with a bold new direction. And the Swedish National Team became kinda terrible. Missed qualifying for tournaments. Had some bad losses. Didn't do better in the big tournaments.

Lagerback? He took over the Icelandic National Team. Now the Icelandic people want to make him President, build a statue to celebrate him, they named a beer after him... he's a national hero.

I dunno, just a 'careful what you wish for' scenario. Maybe Holland's conservative nature is better than someone that comes in and shakes things up with trades and aggressive moves in an effort to quickly rebuild?

I don't believe I ever said that. I commented on it not really being that difficult to make the playoffs. I'm not sure if we're arguing past each other, but I think nearly any team could decide in nearly any year to make the playoffs and it could be done.

The thing is, most teams aren't just trying to 'make it'. They're trying to either build for sustained success, or to actually contend for something. Across the league, we're the only ones doing this 'just make it and then it's perfectly OK to lose badly' thing.

I don't believe I misquoted you. I strongly disagree with your assessment that any team can decide in any year to just make it into the playoffs. What teams aren't trying to make it this year?
Easy to say teams weren't trying to make it when they fail. We already have people on this board trying to claim that Holland/Blashill are tanking on purpose. But look at the threads going into the season, what fanbase was saying they were not going to make the playoffs, or at least have a chance to? Zero.

 

[Dotter]

Why not have Holland winning 5 more Cups? It's a fictional universe you're talking about anyway, why not go for it?

"Having MSL at his disposal for a trade?"

That's a rather rosy perception of how that played out. It's actually one of Yzerman's better moments as a GM that he got any return for MSL when put in that position.

I'm not saying Holland is a bad GM, or that Yzerman is a better GM. But I think it's become clear the last several seasons that Holland is no longer the right GM for what the Red Wings need.

It is fictional because you don't believe it and we'll never know, just like you saying having Yzerman would be better. I believe having Yzerman over Holland would be like replacing Blashill from Babock. For our sake, thankfully KH doesn't want to leave for more money like Babcock did.

Either way it's all conjecture and speculation. Your mind is made up and so is mine. But you'd think we would have learned after the long debate DRWs fans had about how Blashill was going to come in and save the future and Babcock was too stubborn to run with the kids. Now those same people who got their way want Blashill fired and miss Babcock.

/grass is greener

I do not believe their is a better GM in the league than Ken Holland. Give KH a few Toews, Malkins, Crosby, Stamkos and Hedman's and see what happens.

"B-b-b-but Ken Holland should fail for nail!!!!". Yeah, ownership really wants to lose a quarter of a billion of dollars going through a 3 to 5 year tank

 

[Frk It]

It is fictional because you don't believe it and we'll never know, just like you saying having Yzerman would be better. I believe having Yzerman over Holland would be like replacing Blashill from Babock. For our sake, thankfully KH doesn't want to leave for more money like Babcock did.

Either way it's all conjecture and speculation. Your mind is made up and so is mine. But you'd think we would have learned after the long debate DRWs fans had about how Blashill was going to come in and save the future and Babcock was too stubborn to run with the kids. Now those same people who got their way want Blashill fired and miss Babcock.

/grass is greener

I do not believe their is a better GM in the league than Ken Holland. Give KH a few Toews, Malkins, Crosby, Stamkos and Hedman's and see what happens.

"B-b-b-but Ken Holland should fail for nail!!!!". Yeah, ownership really wants to lose a quarter of a billion of dollars going through a 3 to 5 year tank

Yup, the transition from Babcock to Blashill looks like a failure so far.

But what about the transition from Lewis to Babcock? Or DeVellano to Holland? Just because the most recent transition has been a failure doesn't mean the next one will be.

 

[Winger98]

No offense taken, whatsoever.

Your last sentence is why I would say he should remain a part of the organization. I think he should moved be an advisor role, specifically on scouting and the draft. But I would like someone new to take on the GM role. Someone who isn't as conservative, and has a more progressive way of thinking.

yeah, that's what I'd like to see ideally, too. Holland moved into a Devellano type role, and someone either promoted (Martin? Wright?) or brought in from outside (the assistant in Nashville that gets mentioned once in awhile?) to be the GM.

If Holland stays around, though, I think I'd like to see the Wings more aggressively look to add some outside voices. I know Henkka points to Nill leaving as a good sign for our drafting, but I think the fact that we also added someone from outside the organization in Wright, who approached things from a wholly new perspective.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It is fictional because you don't believe it and we'll never know, just like you saying having Yzerman would be better. I believe having Yzerman over Holland would be like replacing Blashill from Babock. For our sake, thankfully KH doesn't want to leave for more money like Babcock did.

Either way it's all conjecture and speculation. Your mind is made up and so is mine. But you'd think we would have learned after the long debate DRWs fans had about how Blashill was going to come in and save the future and Babcock was too stubborn to run with the kids. Now those same people who got their way want Blashill fired and miss Babcock.

/grass is greener

I do not believe their is a better GM in the league than Ken Holland. Give KH a few Toews, Malkins, Crosby, Stamkos and Hedman's and see what happens.

"B-b-b-but Ken Holland should fail for nail!!!!". Yeah, ownership really wants to lose a quarter of a billion of dollars going through a 3 to 5 year tank

I don't think I've actually said that I thought Yzerman would be better. In the post you quoted I actually clearly stated that I'm not saying Yzerman is better.

And for the record I never thought Blashill was going to come in and be some savior. I hoped maybe the team would get that weird bump teams do with a new coach but I never expected him to outperform one of the best coaches in the league.

I'm not sure if you're lumping me in with things people have generally said here or confusing me with someone.

And once again, I've never said the team should tank. For what seems like the hundredth time, there are other options between not having Ken Holland as a GM or tanking.

 

[njx9]

I don't believe I misquoted you. I strongly disagree with your assessment that any team can decide in any year to just make it into the playoffs. What teams aren't trying to make it this year?

What teams, other than us, have pulled out all the stops, and spent to the cap max on vet fill-ins to try? Teams like Edmonton and Toronto would love to make it, I'm sure, but their ultimate goal isn't just to 'keep making the playoffs for a few years'. It's to win a Cup. I'm not sure there's another team in the league, besides us, whose sole goal is just to make it, regardless of outcome.

Easy to say teams weren't trying to make it when they fail. We already have people on this board trying to claim that Holland/Blashill are tanking on purpose. But look at the threads going into the season, what fanbase was saying they were not going to make the playoffs, or at least have a chance to? Zero.

Who cares what the fanbase thinks? It's immaterial. No other team (again, I'm ignoring teams like Colorado and Vancouver who are managed by what appears to be a team of monkeys with darts) went out and signed a bunch of stop gap veterans to huge deals, just to try to back into the playoffs. You have teams like Chicago, who are trying to get in because they know they have the talent to win out once they're there. You have teams like Winnipeg who are on their way up, but aren't going to sell off their future for a 1 and done when they have future championship aspirations. You have teams like Toronto who are a few years behind that. I think any of those teams, below the Chicago level, could sell off some parts, spend to the cap, and be in the playoffs the next season. Easily. That they don't sign mediocre players to 7 year deals is a credit to their management, more than it is a sign that the playoffs are difficult to get into.

Again, more than half the league gets in. Teams with losing records get in more years than not, lately. That's not a tough bar to get over. Making the playoffs for 25 straight years (heck, for half that) is impressive, but making the playoffs in any single season is FAR easier than you're making it seem.

That said, you're missing the easiest argument: if it's really that easy to make it in any given season why, njx9, are Holland and Blashill having such a seemingly hard time of it this year?

 

[ricky0034]

what will happen? depends if he wants to keep being gm or not

it's all up to him pretty much no matter what he does unfortunately

 

[Ezekial]

That's not fair though.
I'm sure the Islanders, Stars, Sabres, Panthers, and Avalanche are all trying to make the playoffs. Then there's teams like us and Vancouver.... Our management is in the same tier as Vancouver...

I'm done with this team though, I mean I'm going to watch all the games still, but they're a lost cause on the ice.
See if the isles have any interest in getting Nielsen back, trade Vanek for something, and hope Howard plays well enough to get claimed. Maybe someone else will want one of our other tradeable pieces. Idk I'm sad.

 

[njx9]

That's not fair though.
I'm sure the Islanders, Stars, Sabres, Panthers, and Avalanche are all trying to make the playoffs. Then there's teams like us and Vancouver.... Our management is in the same tier as Vancouver...

If the Islanders saw the playoffs, this season, as their only goal, they would've paid their guys or they'd make some moves to improve their roster. The Sabres are clearly a team on the upswing, with Eichel and Risto, as are the Panthers (and, in a really bad Atlantic, neither is even out of it, yet) [and the Panthers are a budget team in the first place]. The Stars are tied for 8th right now (but would be out based on 1 ROW). If it were closer to the deadline, all of them could make a move to push them over. It's just not hard to be worse than average if that's your actual goal.

 

[Winger98]

If the Islanders saw the playoffs, this season, as their only goal, they would've paid their guys or they'd make some moves to improve their roster. The Sabres are clearly a team on the upswing, with Eichel and Risto, as are the Panthers (and, in a really bad Atlantic, neither is even out of it, yet) [and the Panthers are a budget team in the first place]. The Stars are tied for 8th right now (but would be out based on 1 ROW). If it were closer to the deadline, all of them could make a move to push them over. It's just not hard to be worse than average if that's your actual goal.

The Isle were already dumping $9 million into Grabovski and Kulemin, that likely spelled the end for Nielsen and Okposo in NYI more than anything. To be fair to NYI, they made an apparently good signing in Ladd who has been an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Ezekial]

If the Islanders saw the playoffs, this season, as their only goal, they would've paid their guys or they'd make some moves to improve their roster.

They signed Andrew Ladd to a god awful contract and their 4C to a 5 year 3.35 mil contract, they have 1.6 mil in cap space. The islanders were certainly in playoff mode coming into the season, that's not debatable.

 

[njx9]

The Isle were already dumping $9 million into Grabovski and Kulemin, that likely spelled the end for Nielsen and Okposo in NYI more than anything. To be fair to NYI, they made an apparently good signing in Ladd who has been an unmitigated disaster.

They signed Andrew Ladd to a god awful contract and their 4C to a 5 year 3.35 mil contract, they have 1.6 mil in cap space. The islanders were certainly in playoff mode coming into the season, that's not debatable.

Fair enough, I mis-read their offseason, and the Islanders misjudged their pro scouting. I still think that, if they decided it mattered, they could move pieces to prop up their roster. Being down 12 points sucks, but I don't think it's insurmountable. However, they will likely, logically, not sell off a bunch of prospects to try to just 'make it' for a quick one-and-done. And even that said, in a sport where most teams make the postseason, no matter how bad their record is, it wouldn't even be slightly surprising to see them turn it around in the final 2/3 of the season and scrape into a wild card. This isn't exactly baseball.

 

[Retire91]

Even if you say that Yzerman being successful was predictable, which personally I think is at least somewhat aided by hindsight. Holland falling off as much as he has was very unpredictable during that time. We both joined in 2010, so I'm sure you can remember the perception was much different of him back then. As it deserved to be.

He was 2 years removed from back to back Cup appearances in 2010. The team was still in good shape.

That would basically be like the Blackhawks moving on from Stan Bowman right now. You don't make that kind of drastic move like that just because.

It would depend on who was coming in behind Stan Bowman. If it meant preserving the golden age for another 15-20 years it might be worth it. No crystal ball could guarantee Yzerman's success but there wasn't anything to detract from it being predictable. Transitioning to Yzerman would have been very natural to the organization.

Taking hindsight out to of the equation its obvious Holland is failing now but the job is still his as long as he wants it. So yes if he is still the GM today there is not a chance in hell they let him go in 2010. But it will remain one of the organizations biggest missed opportunities. As big as Gretzky almost coming here, passing on Jagr and missing out on Bure.

 

[Satrebil]

If you bring in Yzerman, which appears incredibly unlikely, bring him in for both GM and coach.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Even if you say that Yzerman being successful was predictable, which personally I think is at least somewhat aided by hindsight. Holland falling off as much as he has was very unpredictable during that time. We both joined in 2010, so I'm sure you can remember the perception was much different of him back then. As it deserved to be.

He was 2 years removed from back to back Cup appearances in 2010. The team was still in good shape.

That would basically be like the Blackhawks moving on from Stan Bowman right now. You don't make that kind of drastic move like that just because.

This also ignores the fact that Holland would have to step aside for Stevie to bump the guy he had groomed into the top AGM in the game aside as well. Nill wasn't gone yet, not that Holland should have been feeling heat back then, but if he was I am sure he thought the heat should be coming on the behalf of Nill first...