What to do with our defense next year?

[TheKingPin]

Well if we really are looking to overhaul the D, we are actually in a good position for that. You figure, we have Kimmo as a UFA next summer, then Coburn, Schenn and Grossmann the following one. We know we can trade Coburn for something good. It SHOULD be for a younger Dman that had yet to broken out but has showed signs. Teams will pay us more now than it would next summer or at the deadline before FA. Maybe the best bet is to run with what we have, see how the year is going, and then try and get an overpay at the deadline. The acquiring team will look at him as a non rental on a good contract. Could fetch us a bunch. I wonder what he will be looking for as a UFA because the reasons for trading for him are the same reasons for re-signing him.

At this point I'm all for blowing up the D and keeping 4 guys for this coming year with kimo scheen striet and macdonald. Then the following year lose kimo putting in another young player. I would trade coburn to edm for a good return now. Guys max is just not good enough for me. I think another cheaper player could fill his role. Savings on that could be used to sign moulson

 

[Prongo]

At this point I'm all for blowing up the D and keeping 4 guys for this coming year with kimo scheen striet and macdonald. Then the following year lose kimo putting in another young player. I would trade coburn to edm for a good return now. Guys max is just not good enough for me. I think another cheaper player could fill his role. Savings on that could be used to sign moulson

I have been saying this for a little while now. I am willing to start moving players out, everyone of them(defense) besides Kimmo actually I would be okay with trading depending on the return. I still have my dream scenario with Coloroda for Coburn but he is a good player to pair with Ghost as he develops in this league.

Coburn would net a good return(very solid return I think actually) and Grossmann could probably get a late second or early 3rd rounder( looking at Edmonton). We need a second next year so I would be very willing to move him for that price. MacDonald would probably get some interest as well. The outrage from people on HF would be enough for me to trade MacDonald because he just signed long term.

 

[Tripod]

At this point I'm all for blowing up the D and keeping 4 guys for this coming year with kimo scheen striet and macdonald. Then the following year lose kimo putting in another young player. I would trade coburn to edm for a good return now. Guys max is just not good enough for me. I think another cheaper player could fill his role. Savings on that could be used to sign moulson

Yup.

Just think if we traded Coburn and Vinny for Klefbom and a 2nd + F prospect-AS AN EXAMPLE
Yes we are worse today. But we also add a further developed D that can replace the roster spot AND still has top pairing potential. We also get 7 mill in cap space to play with where we potentially add Ehrhoff (5.5 mill) and say Maholtra.(1 mill)

Ehrhoff is better than Coburn...upgrade
Maholtra gives us a #4 C who can win faceoffs.
Klefbom at under $900,000 can take the spot of say Grossmann.

Ehrhoff MacD
Streit Schenn
Kimmo Klefbom

To me, the defense is similar to before, but now has another young kid with lots of upside and we have a 2nd rounder. We also have Grossmanns money to spend for forward depth to replace Vinny...say on a Winnik or Raymond for speed on the LW.

And yes, I know it is a long shot that we would get Ehrhoff. But trading Coburn for a great return COULD set up a bunch more moves to help us out today to be better, and in the future, much better.

And FWIW, I think Coburn could fetch more than that, but just an example.

 

[dookie88]

Yup.

Just think if we traded Coburn and Vinny for Klefbom and a 2nd + F prospect-AS AN EXAMPLE
Yes we are worse today. But we also add a further developed D that can replace the roster spot AND still has top pairing potential. We also get 7 mill in cap space to play with where we potentially add Ehrhoff (5.5 mill) and say Maholtra.(1 mill)

Ehrhoff is better than Coburn...upgrade
Maholtra gives us a #4 C who can win faceoffs.
Klefbom at under $900,000 can take the spot of say Grossmann.

Ehrhoff MacD
Streit Schenn
Kimmo Klefbom

To me, the defense is similar to before, but now has another young kid with lots of upside and we have a 2nd rounder. We also have Grossmanns money to spend for forward depth to replace Vinny...say on a Winnik or Raymond for speed on the LW.

And yes, I know it is a long shot that we would get Ehrhoff. But trading Coburn for a great return COULD set up a bunch more moves to help us out today to be better, and in the future, much better.

And FWIW, I think Coburn could fetch more than that, but just an example.

Ehrhoff is not better than Coburn. He's better offensively, but worse defensively and with Streit, Timonen, and MacDonals on the roster the last thing we need is an offensive defender who's soft and not good defensively.

Klefbom is also so unlikely to ever be better than Coburn that this is a really bad trade to make for the Flyers.

 

[Tripod]

Ehrhoff is not better than Coburn. He's better offensively, but worse defensively and with Streit, Timonen, and MacDonals on the roster the last thing we need is an offensive defender who's soft and not good defensively.

Klefbom is also so unlikely to ever be better than Coburn that this is a really bad trade to make for the Flyers.

Did you miss the part where I said it was an example and that I felt we could get more than that for him?

And just because we make 1 move does not mean we can't do more moves.

But really, we won't do much IMO. I just dislike when people say we CAN'T do anything.

 

[KJS14]

Did you miss the part where I said it was an example and that I felt we could get more than that for him?

And just because we make 1 move does not mean we can't do more moves.

But really, we won't do much IMO. I just dislike when people say we CAN'T do anything.

We COULD move Coburn. However, if we do move Coburn for anything short of an upgrade, we will definitely not be a playoff team next year.

 

[Tripod]

We COULD move Coburn. However, if we do move Coburn for anything short of an upgrade, we will definitely not be a playoff team next year.

If the goal is to build A REAL contending team, then we should be looking 2 years ahead when we can get the contributions from the kids. Today's moves for the future build. For too long, we have ignored the future, to fix today. And why do we need to fix today so often? Because we ignored the future in the past.

We should be targeting a team that has been stuck for a bit and is looking for that push. The Oilers are looking for it to get to the playoffs. The Ducks are looking for it to get past LA and Chicago. If we trade a vet, for a cheap kid and picks, then replace that vet for free thru UFA, then we are further ahead.

And remember, if we sit still and wait, we could lose Ciburn, Schenn and Grossmann for nothing as UFA's. Or, we could be facing the painful decision of keeping them or trading them at the deadline even though we are a playoff team. By trading them in the summer, we have options that are free to replace them. In mid season, we do not.

 

[flyershockey]

On what planet does trading Coburn make us better in two years? If Kelfbom develops like he should (still a big stretch), he might be as good as Coburn. Coburn is only 29 years old and he's the type of guy that tends to age well by NHL standards. He'll still be a very productive player for another 5+ years. If they want him re-signed, he'll get re-signed.

And btw, how is it a potential disaster that Schenn and Grossmann might walk in two years? That's a good thing, and if anything, I want them both gone long before there's even a discussion on whether or not to sign them.

 

[DecadesofFutility]

If the goal is to build A REAL contending team, then we should be looking 2 years ahead when we can get the contributions from the kids. Today's moves for the future build. For too long, we have ignored the future, to fix today. And why do we need to fix today so often? Because we ignored the future in the past.

And remember, if we sit still and wait, we could lose Coburn, Schenn and Grossmann for nothing as UFA's. Or, we could be facing the painful decision of keeping them or trading them at the deadline even though we are a playoff team. By trading them in the summer, we have options that are free to replace them. In mid season, we do not.

Some of the veteran Dmen are a bad fit for the direction of this new defensive scheme.
Therefore, they need be traded to bring in new Dmen who fit the scheme.
The slower Dmen are a defensive liability in today's NHL.
Hextall should be looking to reduce our reliance on slower Defense only - Dmen.

 

[dats81]

On what planet does trading Coburn make us better in two years? If Kelfbom develops like he should (still a big stretch), he might be as good as Coburn. Coburn is only 29 years old and he's the type of guy that tends to age well by NHL standards. He'll still be a very productive player for another 5+ years. If they want him re-signed, he'll get re-signed.

And btw, how is it a potential disaster that Schenn and Grossmann might walk in two years? That's a good thing, and if anything, I want them both gone long before there's even a discussion on whether or not to sign them.

It just makes more sense to trade them for picks or prospects if there is a market and we already anticipate that they are not in our future plans.

 

[Tripod]

On what planet does trading Coburn make us better in two years? If Kelfbom develops like he should (still a big stretch), he might be as good as Coburn. Coburn is only 29 years old and he's the type of guy that tends to age well by NHL standards. He'll still be a very productive player for another 5+ years. If they want him re-signed, he'll get re-signed.

And btw, how is it a potential disaster that Schenn and Grossmann might walk in two years? That's a good thing, and if anything, I want them both gone long before there's even a discussion on whether or not to sign them.

Again...I said it is better to trade Schenn and Grossmann as opposed to losing them for nothing.

As far as Coburn goes, he will be 31, peaked, and be looking for his big payday contract. So once again, we are going to overpay for a dman who will be declining and making big money. Sound familiar?

If we keep things the same this year, chances are, we are having the same type year we just had. I'm sure we have a better start, but we were also crazy healthy last year. What happens this year when we hit them?

If we do nothing, we are at the same spot as last year but Coburn's value will have gone down a bit if we do look to move him. And remember, I only mentioned moving him in a deal to add another goo prospect and picks AND was able to replace him thru UFA.

Coburn is not better than Ehrhoff, Klefbom, picks and prospects.

And again, the Klefbom trade WAS AN EXAMPLE.

 

[OrangeAndBlackMetal]

So now Ehrhoff is better than Coburn?

Okie doke.

The irrational Coburn hate around here is getting ridiculous.

 

[DecadesofFutility]

It just makes more sense to trade them for picks or prospects if there is a market and we already anticipate that they are not in our future plans.

Neither (Schenn or Grossmann) should be in our future plans.
The Flyers need to stop resigning all these 2nd and 3rd line DMen.
Both Grossmann and Schenn are slower skaters and their partners cover for their lack of speed.
They need to be replaced by faster skating Dmen with 2-way ability to upgrade this defense.

 

[Tripod]

So now Ehrhoff is better than Coburn?

Okie doke.

The irrational Coburn hate around here is getting ridiculous.

Again...I said Coburn is not better than Ehrhoff, Klefbom a 2nd and a prospect.

Edit: so in 2 years, when Coburn is a UFA at 31, how much money do you give him and what term? And what level do you expect him to be at?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Neither (Schenn or Grossmann) should be in our future plans.
The Flyers need to stop resigning all these 2nd and 3rd line DMen.
Both Grossmann and Schenn are slower skaters and their partners cover for their lack of speed.
They need to be replaced by faster skating Dmen with 2-way ability to upgrade this defense.

Schenn and Grossmann were brought in because of Bryz's horrific play. They were an attempt to get physical shotblocking defensive specialists to act as meatshields for Bryz. They were the vanguard of a philosophy change that was aborted when the compliance buyouts became available...so they don't fit.


Well, that useless slob is gone now. I don't think those two will be around long term. They'll be here until their replacements are ready...I think the moment they can be replaced, they will be.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

So let me get this straight we're concerned about Coburn holding up but are okay with turning around & giving Ehrhoff a sizable contract (he's not coming cheap) at age 31? All while shipping out Coburn for a pretty mediocre return.

 

[flyershockey]

Again...I said it is better to trade Schenn and Grossmann as opposed to losing them for nothing.

As far as Coburn goes, he will be 31, peaked, and be looking for his big payday contract. So once again, we are going to overpay for a dman who will be declining and making big money. Sound familiar?

If we keep things the same this year, chances are, we are having the same type year we just had. I'm sure we have a better start, but we were also crazy healthy last year. What happens this year when we hit them?

If we do nothing, we are at the same spot as last year but Coburn's value will have gone down a bit if we do look to move him. And remember, I only mentioned moving him in a deal to add another goo prospect and picks AND was able to replace him thru UFA.

Coburn is not better than Ehrhoff, Klefbom, picks and prospects.

And again, the Klefbom trade WAS AN EXAMPLE.

I'm fine with Schenn and Grossmann getting traded. I have no reason to think trading Coburn is a good idea. You've gone on an on about trading Coburn to get younger, but then you want to turn around and sign Ehrhoff (who's older) for more money. What sense does that make? Coburn is 29 years old and plays a game that should sustain for most of his early to mid 30's.

This defense could be incredibly young and cheap in two years time. They could have as many as 3-4 defensemen still playing on ELC's. Our defense will be in a much better position to pay Coburn (or even slightly overpay) to keep him around to mentor guys like Sanheim and Morin. Streit will be there to mentor Ghost on life as an undersized offensive defenseman.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, switching Coburn for Ehrhoff is not a step forward in any way.


Unless the return for Coburn is beastly, I guess?

 

[dats81]

I'm less worried about overpaying for Coburn now that Hextall is the GM.
Homer probably would have re-signed him to a major front loaded 5 year contract with a cap hit north of 5M per. Hextall will probably try to low-ball him when his contract is up...

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I also don't see much problems with re-signing Coburn at another reasonable deal when his current one is up. If money was his main goal he would have opted to for free agency the last time. He'll have spent close to a decade here in this area by then & has a young family currently so I'm not concerned.

 

[Prongo]

In two years Coburn probably will be getting close to 5.5 or 6 million on another 4 year deal or so. When the cap is almost 80 million that will not be bad. MacDonald's contract will be alright in that time as well.

we just have to make it there without doing anything beyond stupid.

 

[mja]

You need an old head on D, you can't just put 5-6 young guns out there and hope for the best. I'm fine with Coburn transitioning into that role, would actually prefer for that to happen. He's going to be a solid 2/3 for another 5 years, at least.

 

[Beef Invictus]

In two years Coburn probably will be getting close to 5.5 or 6 million on another 4 year deal or so. When the cap is almost 80 million that will not be bad. MacDonald's contract will be alright in that time as well.

we just have to make it there without doing anything beyond stupid.

Is there reason to believe the cap is going to go up that much? That would be two huge jumps.

 

[Tripod]

Yeah, switching Coburn for Ehrhoff is not a step forward in any way.


Unless the return for Coburn is beastly, I guess?

Yeah...that is what I mean. Sorry to all if I am not saying it right.

If the goal is just stay competitive the next few years and wait for the kids, then trading Coburn for a big return and replacing him with Ehrhoff, is not that big of deal. Yes it is a slight step back, but does it matter if we are building for the kids anyways? But then in 2-3 years, when the kids are ready, we have a 33 year old Ehrhoff who has 2 years left on his deal. Instead, we will have a 33 year old Coburn who is just STARTING a 5 year deal. Plus we have all the assets that Coburn brings in return including possibly another young kid pushing for top pairing. And some more picks or prospects who could be helping as well.

 

[Prongo]

Is there reason to believe the cap is going to go up that much? That would be two huge jumps.

The tv deal was not included in this years cap or something to that extent by the players. It is believed it will jump a good amount next year. I might have been a little optimistic with the number but I could see a cap from 76-80 million in two years.