What probability do you feel Ovechkin has to catch Gretzky now? (Part 2)

Status
Not open for further replies.

ItWasJustified

Registered User
Jan 1, 2015
4,376
5,462
Ovechkin would have about 80 more goals if he didn't have almost 2 full seasons taken away from him due to things outside of his control (lockouts, COVID)
I don't know about that. He was on pace for about 54 and 58 goals the half season and last season. Remove his actual goals from that and you have 34 more goals than he has now. His last season in Russia before his NHL debut, he scored 13 goals in 37 games. I think that was a important year for his development and I'm not sure he would've light the NHL up like he did right away if he played that lockout season in the NHL instead. But maybe he would have, we will never know.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
14,131
New Bern, NC
Well a lot of it has to do with Capitals not having any tough as nails guys to play with Ovechkin like when they had Mike Knuble. Ovechkin had 59 and 53 assists in the last 2 seasons he played with a productive Mike Knuble on his right wing. Mike Knuble used to put in a lot of those Ovechkin rebounds back in the day. Now all Ovi's got is a soft as butter playmaking pretty boy like Backstrom. Sure he's decent at getting Ovechkin the puck, but he won't be there for the rebound to get Ovechkin those extra assists every now and then.

Soft as butter. Pretty boy. Looking for an excuse to insult it looks like. Btw Mike Knuble was great. He was replaced by Troy Brouwer who was replaced by TJ Oshie on that spot who was replaced by Tom Wilson. All of which are tough as nails.
 

Selanne00008

Registered User
Jun 2, 2006
5,023
885
NYC - UES
Its really the same old argument. Do you value a goal the same as an assist? Ovechkin has more goals than assists because his team is set up for that. When there is 1 50 goal scorer and 20 50 assist scorers, I see one thing as more difficult than the other. Have you ever asked yourself how a player with so many shots on goal doesnt pile up assists from teammates scoring his rebounds?

To further this point. Imagine if we could track the sheer number of passes gretzky made and his % completion to his intended target. Imagine just how many 1,000s of times Wayne was off target. I don't care about his assist totals when he passes 8X more. Thereofr he sucks. I bet he's passed the puck 8X more than Ovie. Just cause he did that does it make him a better passer?

The caps are instructed to setup ovie for one timers and give him the best chance to score. It's a no brainer as coach and not Ovie's fault.

The comments are over the top to get the point across that the opposite, looking at Ovie's shot total to downplay his achievements is ridiculous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Another AZ

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
14,131
New Bern, NC
170 goals to 900 is a LOT.

If Corona continues, you can forget it.
If we are free. There is still an outside shot

I wouldnt say its a slam dunk but best case outside shot doesnt seem to accept the reality of his track record and durability. If he plays 5 more years to 40 at 20 goals per year, that leaves him 70 goal short. Do you really think that a player consistently scoring at a 50 goal pace and consistenty plays all the games is going to suddenly drop off from 50 to 20? If he averages, 40, which seems more likely, he has 3 years at 30 to get there. You think there is only an outside shot at that?
 

Beukeboom

Registered User
Apr 1, 2007
1,939
1,384
Goal scorers leave their prime at 25...
Wear and tear...
The game is different in your 30's...
Power forwards age poorly...

Like, how can you recite "common knowledge" things about the guy at this point like you're doing anything but just openly hoping something catches up to him?
I'm not hoping anything. Someone said it would be a "breeze" for Ovie to get the record and used Selanne's career as an example. I don't think it's a breeze to score another 165 goals from 36 and up. Laine is 23 (read absolute prime), has five seasons in the NHL, and he hasn't reached that number as a total yet.

One day father time will catch up with Ovie. And whether he gets the record or not depends on when that happens. The statistical probability that "the next season will be the one" increases exponentially with age obviously.
 

Dr John Carlson

Registered User
Dec 21, 2011
9,761
4,057
Nova Scotia
The participants weren't even honest, and it wasn't a very diverse group. It's was like 65% Canadians plus 15% Pens fans. 0 Caps fans. The only Russian participant quit the project in protest. So yeah, Ovie didn't get a fair shake, and he never will from those guys.

Nope, I was a participant and I believe I had Ovechkin 13th. And I'm pretty sure Mike Farkas was the only actual Penguins fan.
 

Selanne00008

Registered User
Jun 2, 2006
5,023
885
NYC - UES
I'm not hoping anything. Someone said it would be a "breeze" for Ovie to get the record and used Selanne's career as an example. I don't think it's a breeze to score another 165 goals from 36 and up. Laine is 23 (read absolute prime), has five seasons in the NHL, and he hasn't reached that number as a total yet.

One day father time will catch up with Ovie. And whether he gets the record or not depends on when that happens. The statistical probability that "the next season will be the one" increases exponentially with age obviously.

Why even bring Laine up? Doesn't he suck now? Why not go with Mittlestadt or someone even worse? Just pick a name out of a hat and say it's not easy in their prime.

There isn't really anyone in their prime right now that can score like Ovie.

Laine has nothing to do with this. Nor does Matthews or anyone else of that ilk.
 

Cotton

Registered User
May 13, 2013
9,120
5,611
There have been about 7500 skaters in the NHL since the league started. Of those 7500, only 5 have more goals, and that number will soon be 4. And there are posters here saying he isn’t one of the best players ever???

While that’s factually true it’s not as clear cut as that because players like Bossy, Bure, Lemieux retired early.

Is he one of the best goal scorers ever? Absolutely. The best? No. If it’s a matter of raw numbers and context be damned, then that claim can be made only when he’s passed Gretzky. But with all things considered there isn’t much he can do to topple someone like Mario Lemieux, who in spite of have over 2100 less shots than Ovechkin, only has 40 less goals in more than 200 less games. He also did goat like things in three different decades and through the DPE (while guys like Roy, Hasek and Brodeur were active). He retired with 0.754 g/pg average, which is just ridiculous.

Before Lemieux retired the first time, his totals were 745 games with 613 goals. And before he would play again (3 years later) he had missed a total of 514 games in his career, 514 games at Mario’s rate of scoring is, conservatively, 300 goals (but likely closer to 400). Then he comes out of retirement, a shell of his former self, and pots 35 goals in 43 games at a time with the goals per game average for the league was lower than at any point in Ovechkin’s career.

If you do the math, Lemieux would of ended up with over 950 goals in 1387 games (had he played them all). And this is by only conservatively estimating his rate of scoring over his missed games until 00-01’, at that date I didn’t bother anymore because there was no point, he would have already been at or over 1000 goals.
 

HurricaneFanatic

Registered User
Jan 16, 2020
695
553
While that’s factually true it’s not as clear cut as that because players like Bossy, Bure, Lemieux retired early.

Is he one of the best goal scorers ever? Absolutely. The best? No. If it’s a matter of raw numbers and context be damned, then that claim can be made only when he’s passed Gretzky. But with all things considered there isn’t much he can do to topple someone like Mario Lemieux, who in spite of have over 2100 less shots than Ovechkin, only has 40 less goals in more than 200 less games. He also did goat like things in three different decades and through the DPE (while guys like Roy, Hasek and Brodeur were active). He retired with 0.754 g/pg average, which is just ridiculous.

Before Lemieux retired the first time, his totals were 745 games with 613 goals. And before he would play again (3 years later) he had missed a total of 514 games in his career, 514 games at Mario’s rate of scoring is, conservatively, 300 goals (but likely closer to 400). Then he comes out of retirement, a shell of his former self, and pots 35 goals in 43 games at a time with the goals per game average for the league was lower than at any point in Ovechkin’s career.

If you do the math, Lemieux would of ended up with over 950 goals in 1387 games (had he played them all). And this is by only conservatively estimating his rate of scoring over his missed games until 00-01’, at that date I didn’t bother anymore because there was no point, he would have already been at or over 1000 goals.
I think Mario is the GOAT goal scorer, but it is what it is. I mean, some can make a compelling case that Mario is the GOAT all around.
 

42

Registered User
Sep 8, 2013
8,587
6,625
Toronto Nebula
I think Mario is the GOAT goal scorer, but it is what it is. I mean, some can make a compelling case that Mario is the GOAT all around.
No question about it and it's not even close. If not for injuries, Mario would hold the goal scoring record. His GPG pace is much higher than anyone else's in the top 10. He clicked at 0.75 GPG. Gretzky had 0.6 and Ovechkin slighly higher 0.61 GPG.
 

Beukeboom

Registered User
Apr 1, 2007
1,939
1,384
Why even bring Laine up? Doesn't he suck now? Why not go with Mittlestadt or someone even worse? Just pick a name out of a hat and say it's not easy in their prime.

There isn't really anyone in their prime right now that can score like Ovie.

Laine has nothing to do with this. Nor does Matthews or anyone else of that ilk.
Because some posters treat 165 goals like it's nothing. A good comparison is that some of the most promising scorers out there (Laine) has yet to reach that number after five seasons. I mean Matthews isn't that far ahead either. He reached 165 in his fifth season.
 

Beukeboom

Registered User
Apr 1, 2007
1,939
1,384
No question about it and it's not even close. If not for injuries, Mario would hold the goal scoring record. His GPG pace is much higher than anyone else's in the top 10. He clicked at 0.75 GPG. Gretzky had 0.6 and Ovechkin slighly higher 0.61 GPG.
The problem when battling Mario, is that guys like Ovie and Gretzky have to use actual accomplishments while fighting another man's imaginary accomplishments. So Ovie did A, but Mario would have done A+1. How do you counter that?

Ovie has nine rockets. Can you find nine seasons in which Lemieux led the league in GPG?
 

42

Registered User
Sep 8, 2013
8,587
6,625
Toronto Nebula
The problem when battling Mario, is that guys like Ovie and Gretzky have to use actual accomplishments while fighting another man's imaginary accomplishments. So Ovie did A, but Mario would have done A+1. How do you counter that?

Ovie has nine rockets. Can you find nine seasons in which Lemieux led the league in GPG?
Yes, I am extrapolating based on Lemieux's numbers when he was healthy. It's not a stretch to think that had he stayed healthy for much of his career, the way Ovi and Gretzky did, he would have had a lot more Rockets than he did.
 

iCanada

Registered User
Feb 6, 2010
18,962
18,426
Edmonton
No question about it and it's not even close. If not for injuries, Mario would hold the goal scoring record. His GPG pace is much higher than anyone else's in the top 10. He clicked at 0.75 GPG. Gretzky had 0.6 and Ovechkin slighly higher 0.61 GPG.

I think there is a pretty significant question about it. Mario didn't play those games or score those goals.

Obviously Mario had incredible talent and the tenacity to fight through some horrific injuries and ailments, but does he look as good if he's playing 80 games a season with playoffs for 10+ years?

Gretzky played over 70 games in 18 different seasons. Mario played over 70 games in just 4 seasons. How many games was Gretzky playing where he didn't feel good and wasn't putting up as many points that Mario simply sat out with instead? Is it fair to assume Mario holds that gpg figure if he's playing those extra 15 games a year that he was sitting out to little chinsy injuries that all these other guys played through?
 

Beukeboom

Registered User
Apr 1, 2007
1,939
1,384
Yes, I am extrapolating based on Lemieux's numbers when he was healthy. It's not a stretch to think that had he stayed healthy for much of his career, the way Ovi and Gretzky did, he would have had a lot more Rockets than he did.
I agree. But no matter how I try I can't find nine seasons where he could have won the Rocket. And that's despite handing him Rockets in 93-94, 94-95, seasons where he played twenty or so games or didn't play at all. Which has to be a bit of a stretch?

So the only way to give Mario even more Rockets would be by, not only handing him Rockets in season where he didn't play a single game, but also add goals to seasons in which he played because "he might have been affected by injuries"...

And like the guy above said, sitting out games is rarely bad for your ppg.
 

Midnight Judges

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 10, 2010
13,631
10,264
Nope, I was a participant and I believe I had Ovechkin 13th. And I'm pretty sure Mike Farkas was the only actual Penguins fan.

Well no, Importer/Exporter is also a Pens fan and between him and farkas they wrote for pages and pages about how Ovechkin was a "shoot only" player (despite his 550 assists) and several of the other participants were agreeing with that lie (ted1971, dannygalivan, ehhedler, Dennisbonvie, seventieslord, etc). BobHolly also considers himself an honorary Pens fan out of loyalty to Crosby.

And then there was that guy who ranked Ovechkin 59th (Canadiens1958) - I guess not coincidentally behind a whopping 8 players from the 1958 Canadiens - and that other guy who maintains that Ryan Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin (Benchbrawl). Some of the other participants have been quick to defend Benchbrawl and say that he was merely being hyperbolic, but no, he sincerely believes it.

There were some very bad takes there, and it wasn't a good group. They lacked the honesty to put their emotions aside and vote for a dirty furriner or a player from a team they didn't like. And so they lied and slandered Ovie, and those lies went essentially unopposed by other participants.

Ranking Ovechkin 22nd is not defensible.
 

Switch

Registered User
Jan 23, 2011
29
3
Yes, I am extrapolating based on Lemieux's numbers when he was healthy. It's not a stretch to think that had he stayed healthy for much of his career, the way Ovi and Gretzky did, he would have had a lot more Rockets than he did.
Tomas Hertl should have retired after 3 games. I think we'd all have to agree it would have made him the best player ever.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bleedblue94

42

Registered User
Sep 8, 2013
8,587
6,625
Toronto Nebula
Tomas Hertl should have retired after 3 games. I think we'd all have to agree it would have made him the best player ever.
Wow, talk about a false equivalency. This is just laughable comparing Hertl's 3 games to Mario's almost 1000.
 

filinski77

Registered User
Feb 12, 2017
2,620
4,303
While that’s factually true it’s not as clear cut as that because players like Bossy, Bure, Lemieux retired early.

Is he one of the best goal scorers ever? Absolutely. The best? No. If it’s a matter of raw numbers and context be damned, then that claim can be made only when he’s passed Gretzky. But with all things considered there isn’t much he can do to topple someone like Mario Lemieux, who in spite of have over 2100 less shots than Ovechkin, only has 40 less goals in more than 200 less games. He also did goat like things in three different decades and through the DPE (while guys like Roy, Hasek and Brodeur were active). He retired with 0.754 g/pg average, which is just ridiculous.

Before Lemieux retired the first time, his totals were 745 games with 613 goals. And before he would play again (3 years later) he had missed a total of 514 games in his career, 514 games at Mario’s rate of scoring is, conservatively, 300 goals (but likely closer to 400). Then he comes out of retirement, a shell of his former self, and pots 35 goals in 43 games at a time with the goals per game average for the league was lower than at any point in Ovechkin’s career.

If you do the math, Lemieux would of ended up with over 950 goals in 1387 games (had he played them all). And this is by only conservatively estimating his rate of scoring over his missed games until 00-01’, at that date I didn’t bother anymore because there was no point, he would have already been at or over 1000 goals.
Everyone knows the raw goal totals is a silly way to compare across different eras. The fact is that Ovechkin dominated goal scoring more than Gretzky and Lemieux did (when you consider peak and longetivity).

Lemieux played like 85% of his career in a significantly higher scoring era than Ovechkin did. So comparing his totals to Ovechkins still gives a huge discrepancy due to the scoring environment differences.

Lemieux had one great (partial) season in the DPE, followed by 4 injury ridden seasons where he was not a dominating goalscorer. The sudden drop off indicates that the 35 in 43 was a one off.

The result is that Lemieux still ended up playing the vast majority of his games in a 30% or so higher scoring era.

If Ovechkin finishes with the most raw goals, most adjusted goals, most rockets (already way ahead of anyone else), etc, there will be no way for anyone to try and make a case against him unless it’s silly things like shooting%.
 

HurricaneFanatic

Registered User
Jan 16, 2020
695
553
No question about it and it's not even close. If not for injuries, Mario would hold the goal scoring record. His GPG pace is much higher than anyone else's in the top 10. He clicked at 0.75 GPG. Gretzky had 0.6 and Ovechkin slighly higher 0.61 GPG.
Welllll.. I would say that while he did play sick at times, had he played a full career, he wouldn't have stopped at .75 GPG, it would have decreased probably into the .6something. But yes, I do think as a pure goal scorer he was the best. I still think Wayne was a better playmaker though.
 

HurricaneFanatic

Registered User
Jan 16, 2020
695
553
Yes, I am extrapolating based on Lemieux's numbers when he was healthy. It's not a stretch to think that had he stayed healthy for much of his career, the way Ovi and Gretzky did, he would have had a lot more Rockets than he did.
Gretzky didn't stay healthy. He never complains about it and makes no excuses, but he played with a bum back from about 1991 till the end. Career was almost over in 1994.
 

Zuluss

Registered User
May 19, 2011
2,450
2,091
While that’s factually true it’s not as clear cut as that because players like Bossy, Bure, Lemieux retired early.

Is he one of the best goal scorers ever? Absolutely. The best? No. If it’s a matter of raw numbers and context be damned, then that claim can be made only when he’s passed Gretzky. But with all things considered there isn’t much he can do to topple someone like Mario Lemieux, who in spite of have over 2100 less shots than Ovechkin, only has 40 less goals in more than 200 less games. He also did goat like things in three different decades and through the DPE (while guys like Roy, Hasek and Brodeur were active). He retired with 0.754 g/pg average, which is just ridiculous.

Before Lemieux retired the first time, his totals were 745 games with 613 goals. And before he would play again (3 years later) he had missed a total of 514 games in his career, 514 games at Mario’s rate of scoring is, conservatively, 300 goals (but likely closer to 400). Then he comes out of retirement, a shell of his former self, and pots 35 goals in 43 games at a time with the goals per game average for the league was lower than at any point in Ovechkin’s career.

If you do the math, Lemieux would of ended up with over 950 goals in 1387 games (had he played them all). And this is by only conservatively estimating his rate of scoring over his missed games until 00-01’, at that date I didn’t bother anymore because there was no point, he would have already been at or over 1000 goals.

If we look at actual dominance over peers, Lemieux has no case for being a better goal-scorer than Ovechkin.

Here are their % leads over #10 in goals:

Ovechkin: 63-61-52-52-50-44-43-41-30-26-24-15-6
Lemieux: 85-47-46-29-28-19-5-4

The only thing Lemieux has on Ovechkin is one-year peak. After that, it is Ovechkin by a landslide.

If we want to be generous to Lemieux, who missed a lot of time even in the seasons he did not entirely miss, or if we want to compare players by ability, we can look at Lemieux' margins in gpg. #10 in goals and #10 in gpg are not necessarily the same player, so we are comparing fully healthy Lemieux to other fully healthy players in an ideal, injury-free world. For Ovechkin though, I will take his actual leads, since going with gpg in his case implies letting injured players with high gpg eat into his margins, effectively punishing Ovechkin for his ability to stay healthy.

Ovechkin: 63-61-52-52-50-44-43-41-30-26-24-15-6
Lemieux: 84-69-60-59*-46-44-27-25-14-0-0
(the star is for 2000/01, when Lemieux potted 35 in 43, but then his goal-scoring went off the cliff, which raises doubt if this pace was at all sustainable).

So, in the injury-free world, Lemieux still has one-year peak on Ovechkin, then the next 2-3 seasons Lemieux has a narrow lead (an 8 percentage points difference in the margin over #10 is a 3 goals per season difference, if #10 scores 40 goals, as in 18/19, for example). Seasons #5 and 6 are a wash, and then we have five more Rocket-worthy campaigns from Ovechkin (43-43-30-26-24) vs. two more from Lemieux (27-25) plus some extra top10 finishes in goals, which are, again, a wash.

Effectively, choosing between always healthy Lemieux vs. actual Ovechkin is choosing between somewhat higher peak (8-goal difference in the best year, 3-goal difference in the next three years) vs. two smaller years of better margins (think Ovechkin 08/09 vs. Ovechkin 18/19) plus three more, totally extra legit shots at the Rocket. As much as I like peak, the second option (Ovechkin) seems better.
 

SwedishFire

Registered User
Mar 3, 2011
5,332
1,863
I wouldnt say its a slam dunk but best case outside shot doesnt seem to accept the reality of his track record and durability. If he plays 5 more years to 40 at 20 goals per year, that leaves him 70 goal short. Do you really think that a player consistently scoring at a 50 goal pace and consistenty plays all the games is going to suddenly drop off from 50 to 20? If he averages, 40, which seems more likely, he has 3 years at 30 to get there. You think there is only an outside shot at that?

Your numbers doesnt add up.. averages 40 i. what timespan??

His year now, he thought he was gonzo, but now after really tearing it up, hes at it again. Amazing!

So if I just take a shot in the dark, next years would be like

Ovie 36 46 goals
Ovie 37 42 goals
Ovie 38 42 goals
Ovie 39 38 goals

And up this season, (and what could this be, maybe 736?) he breaks it. And even beyond the 900sphere. Being the only member in that club.

But that takes no more Corona, a healthy Ovie, and no rapid declining.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad