OT: What is the 2nd most popular team in the GTA?

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

One plays in a park that holds 50,000
One plays in a arena that holds sub 20,000

Compared to the rest of the league, Raptors' attendance > Blue Jays' attendance (when succeeding + when struggling)

You can also argue that the Blue Jays play in the summer where way more people are off (ex. school kids) and don't have direct competition in the Leafs like the Raps do

 

[BayStreetBully]

The Leafs are #1 no contest

#2 is the Raptors no doubt. Popularity isn't only judged when a team is successful but also when the team struggles. When the Raptors were struggling, they were still middle of the pack in attendance. Compared to the Jays, they were 24th, 25th, 26th in attendance when they were struggling.

The Jays are doing well right now because they're contenders. Period. Everyone will jump off the bandwagon when the team is down

The Jays have the advantage of being Canada's team + no direct competition like the Raptors do but answering the question of within GTA, it's Leafs #1, Raptors #2 and Jays a distant #3.

There are different dynamics at play to the extent that you can't simply base it on who does better in attendance in relation to their own league. In the darkest of times, the Raptors didn't have the Yankees and Red Sox keeping them out of the playoffs every year by spending 3x more on team payroll.

The Raptors do a better job of keeping its fans interested when both teams are mediocre. When both teams are good, the Raptors come nowhere close to the Jays in popularity and fervor.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

There are different dynamics at play to the extent that you can't simply base it on who does better in attendance in relation to their own league. In the darkest of times, the Raptors didn't have the Yankees and Red Sox keeping them out of the playoffs every year by spending 3x more on team payroll.

The Raptors do a better job of keeping its fans interested when both teams are mediocre. When both teams are good, the Raptors come nowhere close to the Jays in popularity and fervor.

The Raptors have not been champion contenders the way the Jays have been so it's simply not comparable to say "when both teams are good". In a league of individuals, the Raptors simply never had much of a chance to beat any LeBron James led team over the past decade.

In the darkest of times, the Blue Jays still had great players who were must see TV like Roy Halladay, Carlos Delgado, Jose Bautista, Roger Clemens, etc... All at one point, top 2-3 players at their position. Other than Vince Carter, the Raptors have never had a great player on their team that could entice fans to show up. At one point, the Raptors were led by Andrea Bargnani.

 

[lebdafor norris]

Compared to the rest of the league, Raptors' attendance > Blue Jays' attendance (when succeeding + when struggling)

You can also argue that the Blue Jays play in the summer where way more people are off (ex. school kids) and don't have direct competition in the Leafs like the Raps do

Comparing this teams based on attendance standings is like comparing Apples and oranges, Jays during the "dark ages" still had an average attendance of 22000-25000 per year compare to the Raptors 16 k+ attendance, while the Jays also played 81 regular home games during the spring/summer compare to the Raps 41 home games during the fall/winter. Also their is literally only a few hundred game goers that is separating the Raps from the 23rd-25th rank team in the team attendance standings.

 

[deletethis]

The Blue Jays get higher television ratings in the regular season than the Raptors get in the NBA playoffs.

 

[lebdafor norris]

The Blue Jays get higher television ratings in the regular season than the Raptors get in the NBA playoffs.

Where can I find this numbers?

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Comparing this teams based on attendance standings is like comparing Apples and oranges, Jays during the "dark ages" still had an average attendance of 22000-25000 per year compare to the Raptors 16 k+ attendance, while the Jays also played 81 regular home games during the spring/summer compare to the Raps 41 home games during the fall/winter. Also their is literally only a few hundred game goers that is separating the Raps from the 23rd-25th rank team in the team attendance standings.

If you're saying the comparison is apples to oranges, then why would you compare the Jays attendance per game to the Raptors attendance per game. You know quite well that the Jays stadium hold 50k while the Raptors hold 20k

 

[lebdafor norris]

If you're saying the comparison is apples to oranges, then why would you compare the Jays attendance per game to the Raptors attendance per game. You know quite well that the Jays stadium hold 50k while the Raptors hold 20k

Exactly, I wanted to show you what your argument looked like to Jays fans.

 

[BayStreetBully]

The Raptors have not been champion contenders the way the Jays have been so it's simply not comparable to say "when both teams are good". In a league of individuals, the Raptors simply never had much of a chance to beat any LeBron James led team over the past decade.

In the darkest of times, the Blue Jays still had great players who were must see TV like Roy Halladay, Carlos Delgado, Jose Bautista, Roger Clemens, etc... All at one point, top 2-3 players at their position. Other than Vince Carter, the Raptors have never had a great player on their team that could entice fans to show up. At one point, the Raptors were led by Andrea Bargnani.

That's true, the Raptors were never true contenders like the Jays of last year. So I get the point that we haven't seen what the city might be like when they do have a team led by someone like Lebron or Curry, but if you think about your immediate acquaintances of people in your life of all different ages and backgrounds, would they have the same enthusiasm for the Raptors as they do for the Jays? Speaking for myself, it's not even close.

And baseball superstars aren't must watch tv or must see players on a daily basis. So much of baseball greatness depends on averages over the course of a year or even 10 years. It's simply not necessary to watch Delgado go at bat 600 times a season when the game is meaningless as a whole for your team. And I wouldn't be surprised if attendance was indeed higher for nights when Clemens or Halladay pitched.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

That's true, the Raptors were never true contenders like the Jays of last year. So I get the point that we haven't seen what the city might be like when they do have a team led by someone like Lebron or Curry, but if you think about your immediate acquaintances of people in your life of all different ages and backgrounds, would they have the same enthusiasm for the Raptors as they do for the Jays? Speaking for myself, it's not even close.

And baseball superstars aren't must watch tv or must see players on a daily basis. So much of baseball greatness depends on averages over the course of a year or even 10 years. It's simply not necessary to watch Delgado go at bat 600 times a season when the game is meaningless as a whole for your team. And I wouldn't be surprised if attendance was indeed higher for nights when Clemens or Halladay pitched.

It's the Raptors for me but it's not a good argument for either of us to use. Personal experiences equal to small sample sizes so it's not worth using when we're trying to survey the GTA

I mean at least 1 in 5 days, you had a player like Roy Halladay who you could get up and watch (a top 3 pitcher in the league). Other than Vince Carter, the Raptors have never had any player worth viewing.

 

[BayStreetBully]

It's the Raptors for me but it's not a good argument for either of us to use. Personal experiences equal to small sample sizes so it's not worth using when we're trying to survey the GTA

I mean at least 1 in 5 days, you had a player like Roy Halladay who you could get up and watch (a top 3 pitcher in the league). Other than Vince Carter, the Raptors have never had any player worth viewing.

Perhaps not the best argument on my behalf, but the point is I believe 99% in my heart that this city would be way more in love with a contending Jays team than a contending Raptors team. I can't ever prove it with numbers since the Raptors have never been a true contender, but that vibe is in the air if you just walk around the city or live your daily life. We'll have to agree to disagree here.

As for watching baseball superstars, it's just not the same. Winning and the suspense of meaningful games is what gets the fan base excited in baseball. Not individual superstars. Roy Halladay isn't going to draw a packed house if the team sucks, even if he does have the best cutter in baseball.

So when comparing Jays vs Raptors peak popularity, it's not about how well-supported the team is when they are losing. It's how well-supported the team is when they're winning. We know the city is crazy about the Jays when they are winning. *Could* the city be as crazy about the Raptors to the same extent if they were ever as good? We don't know. Sure it's possible, but I highly doubt it.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Perhaps not the best argument on my behalf, but the point is I believe 99% in my heart that this city would be way more in love with a contending Jays team than a contending Raptors team. I can't ever prove it with numbers since the Raptors have never been a true contender, but that vibe is in the air if you just walk around the city or live your daily life. We'll have to agree to disagree here.

As for watching baseball superstars, it's just not the same. Winning and the suspense of meaningful games is what gets the fan base excited in baseball. Not individual superstars. Roy Halladay isn't going to draw a packed house if the team sucks, even if he does have the best cutter in baseball.

So when comparing Jays vs Raptors peak popularity, it's not about how well-supported the team is when they are losing. It's how well-supported the team is when they're winning. We know the city is crazy about the Jays when they are winning. *Could* the city be as crazy about the Raptors to the same extent if they were ever as good? We don't know. Sure it's possible, but I highly doubt it.

My point is, over the dark years of both teams, there's been more reason to cheer for the Jays than the Raptors. You can at least say, I had the pleasure of watching Roy Halladay in his prime (a cy winner and a cy candidate for many more years), Carlos Delgado in his prime (an MVP runner up), Roger Clemens in his prime. The great thing as well is, you knew everytime Halladay pitched, the team had a high chance of winning

IMO you have to look at a team's popularity when their winning and losing. You can't lump core fans and bandwagon fans together and say they're all the same.

Even though the Raptors haven't been as successful as the Jays. We did have Jurassic Park. When we faced Brooklyn in the playoffs 2 years ago, I came an hour and a half early to Jurassic Park. It was so packed there, I was waiting in line for 5 minutes and one of the employees told me there's no point in waiting in line because you're not going to get in. Fans packed Jurassic park whether it was sunny or raining. You can't tell me that's not crazy.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Another perspective is sports participation. Not the be all and end all but it's a factor nonetheless

Basketball completely blows Baseball out of the water within the GTA. In recent years, Basketball has produced several NBA players just in the GTA like Anthony Bennett, Andrew Wiggins, Tyler Ennis, Nik Stauskas, Tristan Thompson, Cory Joseph, Dwight Powell, Brady Heslip, Andrew Nicholson...

Baseball has what? Joey Votto and Dalton Pompey in the Major Leagues.

 

[BayStreetBully]

My point is, over the dark years of both teams, there's been more reason to cheer for the Jays than the Raptors. You can at least say, I had the pleasure of watching Roy Halladay in his prime (a cy winner and a cy candidate for many more years), Carlos Delgado in his prime (an MVP runner up), Roger Clemens in his prime. The great thing as well is, you knew everytime Halladay pitched, the team had a high chance of winning

IMO you have to look at a team's popularity when their winning and losing. You can't lump core fans and bandwagon fans together and say they're all the same.

Even though the Raptors haven't been as successful as the Jays. We did have Jurassic Park. When we faced Brooklyn in the playoffs 2 years ago, I came an hour and a half early to Jurassic Park. It was so packed there, I was waiting in line for 5 minutes and one of the employees told me there's no point in waiting in line because you're not going to get in. Fans packed Jurassic park whether it was sunny or raining. You can't tell me that's not crazy.

But I pointed out why it's not suitable to look at the dark years for baseball teams and especially the Jays being the AL East. Perhaps you might agree then, that the Jays have a lower floor of popularity, but a higher ceiling too.

As for that statement you made about there being more reason to cheer for the Jays over the Raptors during the dark years, you are speaking in terms of superstars. But as I mentioned, you are not going to pack the house just because Delgado or Halladay is playing. That is not what gets the fan base excited. If you go to 3 games and watch Delgado at bat 10 times, you will see him get on base perhaps 1 out of every 3 times at bat. And not get on base 2 out of every 3 plate appearances. Will you leave the stadium those nights thinking "wow, I witnessed greatness."? You will see the same from Tony Batista. On base 1 out of 3 times. You don't notice Delgado's greatness unless you watch him game in and game out. And fans won't do that unless they have more of a reason to watch many games over a season: winning or hope. But when they are winning or have hope...

As for the Raptors, I don't dispute they have a great and devoted fan base. I also don't dispute that this city does get excited for the Raptors in the playoffs. It's probably near the top in the NBA world. I don't dispute it's hard to get into Jurassic Park. I'm just saying the number of excited people in the city and the degree to which they are excited won't match the Jays. But the Raptors don't need to do that. In the end, we should be fortunate that we have 3 teams in this city that get outstanding support when times are good. Despite what people might say, Toronto is a fantastic sports city.

 

[Menzinger]

It's definitely he Jays at the moment - success breeds popularity.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

But I pointed out why it's not suitable to look at the dark years for baseball teams and especially the Jays being the AL East. Perhaps you might agree then, that the Jays have a lower floor of popularity, but a higher ceiling too.

As for that statement you made about there being more reason to cheer for the Jays over the Raptors during the dark years, you are speaking in terms of superstars. But as I mentioned, you are not going to pack the house just because Delgado or Halladay is playing. That is not what gets the fan base excited. If you go to 3 games and watch Delgado at bat 10 times, you will see him get on base perhaps 1 out of every 3 times at bat. And not get on base 2 out of every 3 plate appearances. Will you leave the stadium those nights thinking "wow, I witnessed greatness."? You will see the same from Tony Batista. On base 1 out of 3 times. You don't notice Delgado's greatness unless you watch him game in and game out. And fans won't do that unless they have more of a reason to watch many games over a season: winning or hope. But when they are winning or have hope...

As for the Raptors, I don't dispute they have a great and devoted fan base. I also don't dispute that this city does get excited for the Raptors in the playoffs. It's probably near the top in the NBA world. I don't dispute it's hard to get into Jurassic Park. I'm just saying the number of excited people in the city and the degree to which they are excited won't match the Jays. But the Raptors don't need to do that. In the end, we should be fortunate that we have 3 teams in this city that get outstanding support when times are good. Despite what people might say, Toronto is a fantastic sports city.

They both sucked or were great at being mediocre. You can definitely argue that the Jays were in the AL east. At the same time, basketball is about having the players. The Raptors never had the players (minus VC). What hope did Raptors fans have?

A big piece of the pie is about winning and hope for sure. However, you can't tell me that there was no difference between fans going to watch Roy Halladay pitch and Josh Towers pitch. I'm not talking about packed house but definitely a decent increase in attendance. You can definitely witness greatness by watching Halladay pitch. As for Delgado, it's not necessarily about witnessing greatness rather witnessing a great player. My point is that you at least had that to hang onto compared to the Raptors.

To be honest, I don't think we're a great sports city. We're a great professional sports city. I will say this though, at its peak, all 3 Toronto sports teams can rival any other MLB, NBA, NHL team in the league in popularity

 

[rojac]

Where can I find this numbers?

It's partially true. Here are the ratings for the week to including the first two raptor game:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/e...-where-did-the-raptors-fans-go-213013737.html

1. NHL, Panthers at Islanders, Sunday, CBC: 1,200,000

2. NHL, Blues at Blackhawks, Saturday, CBC: 959,000

3. NHL, Flyers at Capitals, Friday, CBC: 767,000

4. MLB, Athletics at Blue Jays, Friday, Sportsnet One: 739,000

5. MLB, Athletics at Blue Jays, Saturday, Sportsnet One: 696,000

6. MLB, Athletics at Blue Jays, Sunday, Sportsnet One: 651,000

7. NHL, Sharks at Kings, Friday, CBC: 562,000

8. NHL, Predators at Ducks, Saturday, Sportsnet: 511,000

9. NHL, Islanders at Panthers, Friday, Sportsnet: 483,000

10. NHL, Capitals at Flyers, Sunday, CBC: 449,000 (NBC audience not measured)

11. NBA, Raptors at Pacers, Saturday, Sportsnet: 379,000

12. NHL, Stars at Wild, Sunday, Sportsnet: 365,000

13. NHL, Rangers at Penguins, Saturday, Sportsnet 360: 285,000 (NBC audience not measured)

14. Mixed martial arts, UFC 197 preliminaries, Saturday, TSN: 173,000

15. PGA, Valero Texas Open final round, Sunday, Global: 159,000

16. Auto racing, NASCAR Toyota 400, Sunday, TSN: 146,000 (Fox audience not measured)

17. NBA, Warriors at Rockets, Sunday, TSN: 127,000

Soccer, Leicester at Swansea, Sportsnet One: 125,000

18. PGA, Valero Texas Open third round, Saturday, Global: 123,000

19. Hockey, World under-18 semis, Canada vs. Sweden, ?, TSN: 105,000

20. NBA, Spurs at Grizzlies, Sunday, TSN: 97,000

It appears the Raptors' peak audience was 1.8 M during their Cleveland series. That was still less than half of what the Jays drew for the Wild Card game.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/the-great-canadian-ratings-report--200054456.html

1. NBA, Cavaliers at Raptors, Monday, TSN: 1,800,000

2. NBA, Cavaliers at Raptors, Saturday, Sportsnet: 1,430,000

3. Hockey worlds, Canada vs. Finland final, Sunday, TSN: 1,365,000

4. NHL, Lightning at Penguins, Sunday, CBC: 1,340,000

5. NHL, Penguins at Lightning, Friday, CBC: 1,100,000

6. NHL, Sharks at Blues, Monday, CBC: 999,000

7. NHL, Blues at Sharks, Saturday, CBC: 900,000

8. MLB, Blue Jays at Twins, Friday, Sportsnet One: 725,000

9. Hockey worlds, Canada vs. U.S. semifinal, Saturday, TSN: 688,000

10. MLB, Blue Jays at Twins, Sunday, Sportsnet: 634,000

11. MLB, Blue Jays at Twins, Saturday, Sportsnet: 564,000

12. NBA, Warriors at Thunder, Sunday, Sportsnet One: 348,000

13. PGA, Byron Nelson Classic final round, Sunday, Global: 281,000

14. Hockey worlds, Russia vs. Finland semifinal, Saturday, TSN: 223,000

15. Auto racing, NASCAR All-Star Race, Sunday, TSN: 215,000 (Fox audience not measured)

16. Horse reacing, Preakness Stakes, Saturday, TSN: 182,000 (NBC audience not measured)

17. Memorial Cup, Red Deer vs. Rouyn-Noranda, Sunday, Sportsnet: 180,000

18. PGA, Byron Nelson Classic third round, Saturday, Global: 152,000

19. Memorial Cup, London vs. Red Deer, Friday, Sportsnet: 132,000

20, Memorial Cup, Brandon vs. London, Monday, Sportsnet: 128,000

21. Soccer, Whitecaps at Portland, Saturday, TSN: 127,000

22. Athletics, Diamond League Rabat, Saturday, CBC: 110,000

 

[francis246]

anyone who is saying the leafs are #1 right now is kidding themselves. Think about it logically. I go to one of the big three universities in Toronto. It's my fourth year and during those four years I have seen more Jays and Raptors apparel on a daily basis than Leafs. The leafs have faded big time, once they start winning they'll be back on top. But the hype that is surrounding the Raptors and Jays right now is not even fair. The Leafs are currently 3rd and it's not close lol.

This is coming from a huge hockey fan from the GTA

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

^

Comparing Raptors and Blue Jays using Canadian viewership is irrelevant to the argument though.

Nobody would dare to say that the Raptors' popularity even touches the Blue Jays' popularity in Canada

 

[rrc1967]

We all know that the Leafs are still #1 in the GTA, but which professional team is second right now in terms of sheer number of fans? Probably Blue Jays, that would be my guess. Only in the Toronto area. Not Canada wide.

Toronto area i'd say the Jays as #1, leafs probably 2/3.

There was really nothing like the world series back in the 90's even when the leafs were going deep in the playoffs.

The entire downtown core shut down during business hours when the jays were playing in the afternoon, you could have a coffee sitting on yonge and queen. never seen anything like it.

the jays manage to seat almost 4 million people in a season to watch them, had an average tv attendance averaging 1 million a game during the regular season this year.

the leafs? they lost a generation. too many in the GTA now like other teams.

 

[rojac]

anyone who is saying the leafs are #1 right now is kidding themselves. Think about it logically. I go to one of the big three universities in Toronto. It's my fourth year and during those four years I have seen more Jays and Raptors apparel on a daily basis than Leafs. The leafs have faded big time, once they start winning they'll be back on top. But the hype that is surrounding the Raptors and Jays right now is not even fair. The Leafs are currently 3rd and it's not close lol.

This is coming from a huge hockey fan from the GTA

University students are not representative of the whole GTA.

 

[Battle Lin]

the title says GTA for a reason...the leafs are HUGE because of ontario and all its small towns, and fans all over bits and parts of canada

but if u wanna talk about only GTA...leafs are not clear favs...its actually really close

 

[francis246]

University students are not representative of the whole GTA.

but I'm saying that's just a small sample size. On a bigger scale walking downtown how many people do you actually even see wearing Leafs gear on a regular basis? When I was younger I'd say a lot. Now that I'm older I see people wearing Raptors and Jays all the time, rarely do I see Maple Leafs apparel unless it's a Leafs game night.

Even my parents and grandparents who were once big Leafs fans (and I identify as a minority btw - I'm black lol), have shifted to both the Jays and Raptors. The Leafs suck really bad right now and they are trending upwards but right now there is no question that both the Jays and Raptors are a head. Especially considering how diverse the GTA is. Not that many immigrants have been exposed to hockey and good hockey at that. But everyone knows Joey Bats, everyone knows Edwin, everyone knows Demar DeRozan, everyone knows Kyle Lowry and Corey Joseph. How many people would know Morgan Rielly if he walked on the street? Or even Auston Matthews?!

 

[Plat]

GTA the Jays are second but nationwide they are number one, Raptors clear third in both.

 

[Leafsdude7]

I'd say Jays, largely due to how long they've been here.

Though, thinking about it, that would imply that the Argos should have the most fans...but of course no one really cares about the CFL outside of the Prairies.