What if Lemieux was in his prime today?

[Rhiessan71]

I'm fully aware that they are a guide and are not real so stop the shouting already and maybe you can address the Denis Savard and Stevie Y seasons I was referring to instead of going off on your typical straw man arguments.

Well...lets see, Yzerman as a 37 year old playing defensive first hockey only 8 years ago was STILL a point per game player.
A prime Yzerman playing as an offensive first player today reaching 120+ points...NO PROBLEM!
Yzerman as a 2 way player, would keep up to Sid NO PROBLEM!

As dynamic and skilled as you believe Sid to be, Stevie, in his prime, was better imo.
I am truly blessed to have witnessed Stevie in his prime. I felt that way at the time and still feel that way today.
Maybe not as blessed as having been able to watch Lemieux and Gretzky from the beginning and Orr in the end but more blessed than I feel watching Sid or OV.
Sorry, can't help what I feel and saw.

 

[Gobo]

Wanna see it go the other way. Adjust Sid and AO's stats to Mario's era and see how far behind they are.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

So knowing the following:

- The most Lemieux ever finished ahead of the next closest scorer was 31 points. In a year where there were several 15+ point gaps between the top 5 players alone. Never lead the league in points by more than 12 any other year, although was on pace to a few times.

- He was never once on pace for more than 160 points in any year where he didn't recieve around 400 penalty minutes.

- The league during the time he dominated was not as deep or talented as it is now, teams were not nearly as good overall, and that would most certainly be a factor on any individual including Lemieux.

- Jagr not only kept pace, but outscored Lemieux in his comeback year by 3 points in the games they played in the regular season and playoffs combined, we can conclude he was likely closer to the 121 point player Jagr was rather than the 146 one he was on pace for

Answer the following:

- How would he easily be outscoring Crosby and Ovechkin today, by amounts of... 20-40 points, let alone 60-80 more like some believe?

- How does today's game benefit Lemieux more? How are the "type" of the goals that are scored and no red-line outweigh let alone even out with all the other factors mentioned (goals per game decreased, parity level, more defensive systems, less powerplays, etc. etc.)?

Let's be honest here, the league is more talented now. It's fairly obvious. Look how skilled, how freakishly strong and athletic Crosby and Ovechkin are, combined with their hockey sense, especially Crosby's which is off the charts... not too mention their determination and will to be the best which is pretty apparent when watching them.

In what scenario would Lemieux be blowing these guys out of the water? If you watch games and don't judge too strictly on point totals and dominance of peers based on point totals, I'd say Crosby and Ovechkin in this era standout among other players almost as much as Lemieux did, especially in terms of skill and dominance. They're all around games are pretty amazing for players of their offensive caliber as well, Ovechkin's physicality, Crosby's overall game, not just his defense, but leadership, faceoff ability, shootouts, etc. each of these guys bring much more than their point totals indicate.

I think a Lemieux Born in 87 would possibly dominate the same way Crosby did his whole, possibly slightly more, possibly a fair bit more. Not nearly a lot more, I don't think that's going to happen today. Players like Datsyuk, Jagr, Thornton, and Malkin for a few years weren't too far behind what Crosby and Ovechkin were doing either, there's a lot of talent today.

If we go strictly by points as well, we can say that Ovechkin and Crosby are way better than Datsyuk, easily better and there's no discussion whatsoever, but if you tune into enough games you'll see fairly quickly that's just not the truth. This last part may be slightly off topic, but somehwat related I suppose.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Has Ovechkin not been allowed to play HIS way throughout his career? Just the other night he was staying out full 2 minute power-plays. Only recently has he discovered "backchecking". I didn't see him in his own zone against the Habs last year.

Yeah, Lemieux wasn't effective enough to turn that Pens team into something respectable... but look at that roster, it was appalling. What did you expect a broken down 37 year old to do? How would that team have scored at all if he wasn't there?

Crosby, I'll admit, is better now than an old Lemieux, even though not necessarily being better offensively. He's very good all-around. But no way does he keep up offensively with a prime Lemieux, and no way does his defensive edge make up the difference. Plus, a prime Lemieux with modern training would be much better equipped to play a more complete game.

Heck, you won't get any argument from me with AO being in the same class as Mario or Sid for that matter, he is a different type of player, albeit a great one and will probably go down as one of the all time greats when it's all said and done.

Offensively Mario does have the edge but when we include 2 way play and leadership and other intangibles we will have to wait and see how Sid's career pans out (and hopefully we will be able to see no lingering effects of the concussion).

 

[Hardyvan123]

Well...lets see, Yzerman as a 37 year old playing defensive first hockey only 8 years ago was STILL a point per game player.
A prime Yzerman playing as an offensive first player today reaching 120+ points...NO PROBLEM!
Yzerman as a 2 way player, would keep up to Sid NO PROBLEM!

As dynamic and skilled as you believe Sid to be, Stevie, in his prime, was better imo.
I am truly blessed to have witnessed Stevie in his prime. I felt that way at the time and still feel that way today.
Maybe not as blessed as having been able to watch Lemieux and Gretzky from the beginning and Orr in the end but more blessed than I feel watching Sid or OV.
Sorry, can't help what I feel and saw.

I saw Stevie Y play his entire career and I'm a huge fan but he isn't in the same league as Sid is, in any part except perhaps leadership.

Steve and Burnaby Joe were great players but quite simply didn't have the same impact that Sid had in their 1st 6 years or even if we compare peak years either.

that's not a slight to either player but more of a testament to how great Sid has been in his 1st 6 years.

Infinite Vision has some really good points on why Mario (most likely)wouldn't be able to dominate the same way today and score at a similar rate, do yourself a favor and read it with an open mind.

Just for the record exactly 4 guys have scored over 120 points in the last decade and only 29 players have scored over 100 points in that time period.

There is no lack of great talent in todays NHL it is quite simply much harder to score and there are no easy nights anymore to rack up huge nights on a consistent basis like there was in the 80's.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Just a few more little things.

- In a league with more parity it's less of a guarantee you score a lot or even at all despite possibly having one of you're better performances
- In a league with more parity you are much less likely to rack up points on an off night in which you didn't neccessarily have a performance that was indicative of the numbers produced
- In a league with more parity teams are more equipped talent wise and better prepared to shutdown elite players
- In a league with more parity less meaningless points are scored in blowouts
- It's fairly obvious lower scoring isn't due to lack of talent, infact it's almost the exact opposite as far as I can see (think of it in the sense that 3 elite players on a line may hinder each other's offensive performance, because there's only one puck to go around)

 

[Jules Winnfield]

He would be in a class all to himself.

Crosby/Ovechkin would be to Lemieux what Sakic/Yzerman were to Lemieux.

For anyone saying he wouldn't be that dominant, you're smoking crack. Imagine him today with the way guys train today, with a 6'5" 240 lb frame.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Just like other debates of this nature, it's going no where fast.

Even though there are more actual facts to support the opinions of Wayne and Mario still being unquestionably the best in the world today.
There is still enough on the other side to at least make an argument and form contrary opinions.

In the end, that's all this is, is a battle of opinions.

What some see as more skilled, I see as just being faster.
I can't possibly see how the league is more skilled now than it was 10-15 years ago.
The Salary Cap and the ultimate emphasis on speed above all today has done more to limit the talent pool of the league than any expansion ever has.

Guys like Jason Allison and Ray Sheppard had more skill, better hands and more creativity than 90% of the first liners in the league today but wouldn't make it now because of their terrible foot speed.

The league doesn't have the highest skilled players, it has the highest skilled of the players that can skate fast.
There really is a difference.

Honestly, if you can't see how the Salary Cap and the speed of the game limits what players teams can fill their top lines with and especially their 3rd and 4th lines out with, you're either blind or purposefully ignorant.

How anyone can sit there with a straight face and say that the league is more talented than it has ever been and today's system's without the ridiculous hooking, holding and interference are as good at stifling offense as the systems used during the DPE with all that crap allowed is beyond me.

 

[pappyline]

Am I reading this right? Do some posters really think that a prime Mario playing today would be at the Crosby/Ovechkin level? Mario would easily beat these guys by 20-30 points if not more.

 

[Unaffiliated]

Are we assuming that Mario gets modern training, nutrition, equipment, etc.?

If we directly teleport his 90s self into today, maybe he's at Crosby/Ovechkin level.

But if he's born at the same time as Sid/OV, I don't see their offensive skills being close.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

You gotta assume training, diet, supplements etc. same as today's elite. Only way any "put so and so into this era" thread makes any sense. And with that in mind it's pretty simple:

Lemieux





Crosby

Ovechkin

 

[Sens Rule]

So knowing the following:

- The most Lemieux ever finished ahead of the next closest scorer was 31 points. In a year where there were several 15+ point gaps between the top 5 players alone. Never lead the league in points by more than 12 any other year, although was on pace to a few times.

- He was never once on pace for more than 160 points in any year where he didn't recieve around 400 penalty minutes.

- The league during the time he dominated was not as deep or talented as it is now, teams were not nearly as good overall, and that would most certainly be a factor on any individual including Lemieux.

- Jagr not only kept pace, but outscored Lemieux in his comeback year by 3 points in the games they played in the regular season and playoffs combined, we can conclude he was likely closer to the 121 point player Jagr was rather than the 146 one he was on pace for

Answer the following:

- How would he easily be outscoring Crosby and Ovechkin today, by amounts of... 20-40 points, let alone 60-80 more like some believe?

- How does today's game benefit Lemieux more? How are the "type" of the goals that are scored and no red-line outweigh let alone even out with all the other factors mentioned (goals per game decreased, parity level, more defensive systems, less powerplays, etc. etc.)?

Let's be honest here, the league is more talented now. It's fairly obvious. Look how skilled, how freakishly strong and athletic Crosby and Ovechkin are, combined with their hockey sense, especially Crosby's which is off the charts... not too mention their determination and will to be the best which is pretty apparent when watching them.

In what scenario would Lemieux be blowing these guys out of the water? If you watch games and don't judge too strictly on point totals and dominance of peers based on point totals, I'd say Crosby and Ovechkin in this era standout among other players almost as much as Lemieux did, especially in terms of skill and dominance. They're all around games are pretty amazing for players of their offensive caliber as well, Ovechkin's physicality, Crosby's overall game, not just his defense, but leadership, faceoff ability, shootouts, etc. each of these guys bring much more than their point totals indicate.

I think a Lemieux Born in 87 would possibly dominate the same way Crosby did his whole, possibly slightly more, possibly a fair bit more. Not nearly a lot more, I don't think that's going to happen today. Players like Datsyuk, Jagr, Thornton, and Malkin for a few years weren't too far behind what Crosby and Ovechkin were doing either, there's a lot of talent today.

If we go strictly by points as well, we can say that Ovechkin and Crosby are way better than Datsyuk, easily better and there's no discussion whatsoever, but if you tune into enough games you'll see fairly quickly that's just not the truth. This last part may be slightly off topic, but somehwat related I suppose.

Well using the margin of winning the scoring race is less relevent when we consider he was up against a PRIME WAYNE GRETZKY his 168 and 199 point seasons.

Gretzky and Mario are so much better offensively than Crosby or Ovechkin it is not even close.

I'd say Crosby and Ovechkin in this era standout among other players almost as much as Lemieux did, especially in terms of skill and dominance.

As someone who actually watched Mario's whole career and almost all of Gretzky's as well.... It is not even remotely close. Mario and Gretzky were so much better THAN EVERYONE but each other that to say that Crosby and Ovechkin are even close to as dominant is showing you either did not watch Mario's career or you are being willfully blind. And to say Ovechkin has an overall game that makes him somehow more dominant is not the case. He is physical, but his attributes beyond goal scoring are limited, probably more than other average star players, more out of his disinterest in doing those things for most of his career than his potential inability to do them. Crosby is a different case. He utterly dominates and is excellent and always improving at every single facet of the game and IMO is underrated in doing that. But even still Gretzky and Mario are so otherworldly that even with Crosby's amazing overall play he can not touch them in dominance.

Mario in his prime in today's league is going to score at least 15 goals more and 30 or 40 points more than Crosby or Ovechkin.

It is possible in fact that Crosby would have been more suited and effective in the late 1980's and 90's than he is now, and I think almost certainly that Mario's game is much, much better suited to today's rules. Both would be amazing in any era with any rules, but Mario would eat up today's league. Almost everything is perfect for him with the rules today.

 

[Sens Rule]

Are we assuming that Mario gets modern training, nutrition, equipment, etc.?

If we directly teleport his 90s self into today, maybe he's at Crosby/Ovechkin level.

But if he's born at the same time as Sid/OV, I don't see their offensive skills being close.

That doesn't matter, he played post lockout for god's sake?!? He is not Eddie Shore or Lionel Conacher... he doesn't need a time machine!

Fat broken down 35 year old Mario would dominate Crosby and Ovechkin offensively at least. Cigarette smoking, Big Mac eating 20 year old Mario would still dominate and be the best in the NHL.

Ovechkin himself has about the same training methods as Mario did.... have you seen how out of shape he looks drinking beer with Russian Models in the summers!

 

[#66]

In terms of style I think Lemieux would be a Joe Thornton type but also score goals like AO. Its an elite mix of a slow down passer and high octane goal scorer. Not that Lemieux was overly slow or fast but he knew how to mix it up to get past players.

As usual, todays players aren't getting enough credit in these threads. Lemieux's my idol but you factor in better goaltending, better defenses, better quality team for team and take away about :10 mins a night from Lemieux and Sid/ AO are closer to him than people think.

Then you factor in a kid like Crosby playing well in all three zones and the on ice quality is right up there to Lemieux offensive first game.

 

[Seanconn*]

I can't even get into how much league averages mean **** when it comes to Wayne and Mario.

Mario played how many shortened seasons...

Those two players ruled the ice when they played unlike any two other forwards. Crosby and Ovi are great, but Wayne and Mario could do whatever they could do. which could very well end up being 200.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

In terms of style I think Lemieux would be a Joe Thornton type but also score goals like AO. Its an elite mix of a slow down passer and high octane goal scorer. Not that Lemieux was overly slow or fast but he knew how to mix it up to get past players.

As usual, todays players aren't getting enough credit in these threads. Lemieux's my idol but you factor in better goaltending, better defenses, better quality team for team and take away about :10 mins a night from Lemieux and Sid/ AO are closer to him than people think.

Then you factor in a kid like Crosby playing well in all three zones and the on ice quality is right up there to Lemieux offensive first game.

As someone who watched almost every game Lemieux ever played, I think you're WAY off base.

In 2003, Lemieux had 91 points in 67 games. Over an 82 game season, that is 111 points. The leading scorer that year had 106 points. If Lemieux plays every game, he wins the Art Ross. AS A 38 YEAR OLD!!!!!

For someone who said Lemieux was your idol, I can't even believe you said he would be a Joe Thornton type. I just facepalmed my forehead off.

 

[Hardyvan123]

As someone who watched almost every game Lemieux ever played, I think you're WAY off base.

In 2003, Lemieux had 91 points in 67 games. Over an 82 game season, that is 111 points. The leading scorer that year had 106 points. If Lemieux plays every game, he wins the Art Ross. AS A 38 YEAR OLD!!!!!

For someone who said Lemieux was your idol, I can't even believe you said he would be a Joe Thornton type. I just facepalmed my forehead off.

couple of points here, even if Mario plays in every game and beats Forsberg by 5 points there is no way he get the Hart.

Really in that season all Mario was doing was racking up points, didn't help his team much at all, not that his team was any good but I doubt they win many extra games by having Mario there.

As for the Thorton comp with AO goal scoring that's about right IMO as he would be among the leaders in both goals and assists in todays NHL year in and year out. Pretty sure the poster was referring to Thorton before this off year

There would be a whole separate debate whether a team led by Mario and his scoring 1st ways would compete for the Cup every year but that's another debate.

 

[Irato99]

couple of points here, even if Mario plays in every game and beats Forsberg by 5 points there is no way he get the Hart.

Really in that season all Mario was doing was racking up points, didn't help his team much at all, not that his team was any good but I doubt they win many extra games by having Mario there.

As for the Thorton comp with AO goal scoring that's about right IMO as he would be among the leaders in both goals and assists in todays NHL year in and year out. Pretty sure the poster was referring to Thorton before this off year

There would be a whole separate debate whether a team led by Mario and his scoring 1st ways would compete for the Cup every year but that's another debate.

The post is about Lemieux in his prime. Now you're talking about a 38 years old player.

 

[habsjunkie2*]

The post is about Lemieux in his prime. Now you're talking about a 38 years old player.

Exactly, Mario and Wayne would be miles ahead in this era. They wouldn't win scoring races by 80 points, but they would dominate rather easily. Crosby is a great player, but he isn't remotely gifted as offensively as either of these 2. I grew up watching them both and there hasn't been anyone remotely close since.

I predict Mario would be around the 150-160 point range routinely in todays NHL.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

The post is about Lemieux in his prime. Now you're talking about a 38 years old player.

He was responding to a post where that was used as an example, if you hadn't noticed.

Anyhow I feel the same as Disco #66. It can't be stressed how amazing I realize Lemieux was, and especially his comeback, but at the same time people are still dreaming thinking he'd score anything more than 150 points in today's NHL.

Just him winning the Art Ross every year since the lockout would be an outstanding feat itself considering he won it 6 times his whole career, and also given the fact we haven't had a multiple Art Ross winner in 10 years. That would alone would make him by far stand out among today's players... but the truth is he wouldn't be winning it by insane amounts every year like everyone thinks.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The post is about Lemieux in his prime. Now you're talking about a 38 years old player.

I'm fully aware of the OP, I was responding to a specific season that was brought up and alter addressed how Mario would do in his prime which is basically a hybrid of AO and Thorton pre 11 which would be in the 50's or 60's goalscoring with maybe a season here or there in the 70's with 80-100 assists depending on line mates and team situation.

Exactly, Mario and Wayne would be miles ahead in this era. They wouldn't win scoring races by 80 points, but they would dominate rather easily. Crosby is a great player, but he isn't remotely gifted as offensively as either of these 2. I grew up watching them both and there hasn't been anyone remotely close since.

I predict Mario would be around the 150-160 point range routinely in todays NHL.

A 150 point season would be at a 1.89 PPG rate, something Mario did in 6 times between ages 22-31 (using adjusted points he hits that mark 150 actually only 2 times).

That is against worse goalkeeping, worse defensive systems ect...

Mario might be able to score at that pace, 150 points, in the current NHL in his prime but it's not a given or even likely in each and every season.

To think so is to misunderstand the nature of the changes in the NHL IMO but those who just look at counting stats without context will continue to disagree is my guess.

 

[Rhiessan71]

To think so is to misunderstand the nature of the changes in the NHL IMO but those who just look at counting stats without context will continue to disagree is my guess.

One must accept your understanding of exactly what those changes are first.

In fact, I say the majority of the premises you base your conclusions off of are flawed to begin with.

You say the league is more talented now, I say it's less talented.
You say the "new" systems are better, I say they aren't.
You say goaltenders are markedly better than they were 10-15 years ago, I say they aren't.
You say Mario and Wayne would have more trouble standing out today, I say they would stand out even more because they would fill the void in talent the league currently has.

I mean your points would be valid IF I agreed with your initial premises, which I don't so they aren't.

Speed over talent and the Salary Cap are huge factors that don't seem to belong in your world.

Sid and the Pens are a prime example of what I'm talking about.
Why does Sid not have any good linemates? Why do the Pens have to fill their wings up with fast 3rd line and borderline 2nd line players?
Are you telling me there aren't more talented players around the world that could step in and rack up a boat load of points on Sid's or Malkin's wing than what they currently employ?
C'mon, gimme a break man.
For every superstar in the league, that's at least one and prolly two spots on their respective team that HAS to be filled by less talented cheap players.

 

[JackSlater]

- The league during the time he dominated was not as deep or talented as it is now, teams were not nearly as good overall, and that would most certainly be a factor on any individual including Lemieux.

I doubt that the NHL in 1996 and 1997 was very different talent wise from today, although there was certainly less parity.

- Jagr not only kept pace, but outscored Lemieux in his comeback year by 3 points in the games they played in the regular season and playoffs combined, we can conclude he was likely closer to the 121 point player Jagr was rather than the 146 one he was on pace for

Keep in mind that Jagr would have scored more than 121 points had Lemieux played the whole year. Anyway, even if Lemieux scored 121 points that year, that would have been 25 points ahead of anyone other than Sakic and Jagr. Amazing considering Lemieux's retirement and history.

In what scenario would Lemieux be blowing these guys out of the water? If you watch games and don't judge too strictly on point totals and dominance of peers based on point totals, I'd say Crosby and Ovechkin in this era standout among other players almost as much as Lemieux did, especially in terms of skill and dominance. They're all around games are pretty amazing for players of their offensive caliber as well, Ovechkin's physicality, Crosby's overall game, not just his defense, but leadership, faceoff ability, shootouts, etc. each of these guys bring much more than their point totals indicate.

I honestly can't see how Crosby and Ovechkin stand out as much as Lemieux. Lemieux is possibly the only player (maybe Orr) who actually did look like he belonged in a different league. Some of this had to do with the smaller talent pool for most of his career, but I do not think that this factor comes close to making up the gap.

I think a Lemieux Born in 87 would possibly dominate the same way Crosby did his whole, possibly slightly more, possibly a fair bit more. Not nearly a lot more, I don't think that's going to happen today. Players like Datsyuk, Jagr, Thornton, and Malkin for a few years weren't too far behind what Crosby and Ovechkin were doing either, there's a lot of talent today.

That those players were close to Ovechkin and Crosby seems to me to show that Lemieux has a pretty big edge in peer dominance. I don't disagree with most of what you've been saying to be honest, and if both players were healthy the most I could possibly see Lemieux outscoring Crosby would be 40, and even then 30 is much more likely.

 

[lextune]

Let's be honest here, the league is more talented now. It's fairly obvious. Look how skilled, how freakishly strong and athletic Crosby and Ovechkin are

Nonsense. Neither one of them are the "Made-For-Hockey-Specimen" that Mario was.

combined with their hockey sense, especially Crosby's which is off the charts...

I agree, Crosby's is off some charts....Best hockey mind in the game today.

....but not even on Gretzky's chart.

 

[WingsFan95]

Prime Lemieux with Crosby & Malkin would be utter destruction on the rest of the league.....

Yes, with those line-mates, even just Malkin, he would be putting 150+ seasons.

180+ would probably be reaching it with the NHL of today and goaltenders, but I could see him having that all-time season with 70-80 goals.