Post-Game Talk: What else is there to say... Leafs lose 5-2

[Nithoniniel]

The team as a whole was ineffective through most of the game. I'm not sure what you perceived his level of play to be, but it is quite clear you are making something out of nothing.

I perceived his level of play to be weak and ineffective, as I've said. It is not quite clear I'm making something out of nothing, as you have made no argument to show otherwise that I haven't countered.

I have nothing against Phaneuf, you never see me in a Dion-thread talking him down like so many do. He was weak this game though, and you are basically arguing with the only person in this thread other than you who didn't think he was completely awful last night.

 

[TheThrill81*]

How much are they paying you, and are you guys hiring?

About as much as you're being paid.

 

[TheThrill81*]

I perceived his level of play to be weak and ineffective, as I've said. It is not quite clear I'm making something out of nothing, as you have made no argument to show otherwise that I haven't countered.

Except the post which you said you agreed with?

I have nothing against Phaneuf, you never see me in a Dion-thread talking him down like so many do. He was weak this game though, and you are basically arguing with the only person in this thread other than you who didn't think he was completely awful last night.

What you perceive to be weak, and what is actually weak are two different things. He wasn't at fault for any of the goals, and he was one of the few players out there who gave a damn and was laying out hits. To me, that is not being weak and ineffective. But please, use the 'I have nothing against <insert player>' argument if you feel that makes you look more objective.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Except the post which you said you agreed with?



What you perceive to be weak, and what is actually weak are two different things. He wasn't at fault for any of the goals, and he was one of the few players out there who gave a damn and was laying out hits. To me, that is not being weak and ineffective. But please, use the 'I have nothing against <insert player>' argument if you feel that makes you look more objective.

We are both subjective in this topic, I'm not sure why you are trying to make it sound like only one of us are. All we've got is our impressions, and the stats that you brought up and that I felt was luck-based rather than play-based. Another disagreement that is subjective for the both of us.

I know he was not to blame for the goals, I already praised him for the hits. Those are short snippets out of 20 minutes of icetime, in which I didn't like his game. It's not as bad as last night, which was on the level of the end of last season, but it wasn't average either.

And yes, I agreed with the general gist of what you said. Which is why I think it's a bit weird why we are having this conversation. We are sitting in a thread where people are in general calling him worthless, not NHL-worthy and a complete fraud, and we are arguing because I think he was sort of bad and you think he was average (I guess?)

Not a disagreement large enough to argue over in my opinion. Not with the tone you have.

 

[naturalnumbas]

Dion maybe laid out a few hits but was overall pretty ineffective against Sid's line. You could say it was just one game and Sid is world class, which is true, but he was also pretty ineffective against MTLs top line.

I don't have anything against him but it will be a long season if he doesn't pick it up. He's not unique in that regard though.. Kessel, JVR, even Bernier have been nothing special. They'll be a lottery squad if these guys don't show up, and non-playoffs for sure if they don't show up soon.

Rielly looked so good. He was the best PP performer on the team, and his speed really helped defensively as well. I think he should start seeing some minutes out against top line opposition.

 

[JackJ]

For the love of god Carlyle please split up Rielly and Gardiner unless we're on the PP.

 

[Brock Radunske]

I have a feeling Reimer is going to put on an absolute clinic tonight.

 

[Maximum Cheddar]

Almost everything was/ is terrible on this team. It's getting to the point where I am not sure what they can do anymore as an organization. It's getting to the point where a full on tear down is the only thing left.

 

[schenneuf]

Yup, and Phaneuf is the one that really needs to go.

I absolutely believe Kessel has to go. He obviously did diddly squat over the summer, even admitted that. He never has been, nor will he ever be, a leader. Being the highest (or second highest) paid player on a team brings responsibilities along with it. It certainly appears Kessel has no aspirations to assuming any leadership on this team. Also, I used to be quite high on Kadri. Not so sure anymore. Brutal play on the Sutter goal.

 

[naturalnumbas]

I know he was not to blame for the goals, I already praised him for the hits. Those are short snippets out of 20 minutes of icetime, in which I didn't like his game. It's not as bad as last night, which was on the level of the end of last season, but it wasn't average either.

Unless you count the one he tipped standing in no-mans land in front of Bernier.

 

[Raging Bull]

A lot of last night came down to effort in races for the puck and one-on-one battles. Seemed like we were losing every 9 of 10. Say what you want about Carlyle's system and approach, but the players have to take it upon themselves to show some effort and determination.

It's too easy for the other team when all you have to do is dump the puck in the corner and know 90% of the time you are coming out of it with possession.

 

[Faltorvo]

maybe that is why they tried a swarm defence last year and fast break offence

they just don't have enough guys that can win 1v1 battles and handle the cycle.

 

[rumman]

For the love of God, please get rid of Kessel/Phaneuf. High priced crap, oh and get rid of the idiot who gave them said contracts.

 

[Confucius]

49 million for Phaneuf… good God Nonis, please just quit. Kessel got his big deal and now he's just cruising, he won't be playing hard anymore. Thanks Phil....

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

A lot of last night came down to effort in races for the puck and one-on-one battles. Seemed like we were losing every 9 of 10. Say what you want about Carlyle's system and approach, but the players have to take it upon themselves to show some effort and determination.

It's too easy for the other team when all you have to do is dump the puck in the corner and know 90% of the time you are coming out of it with possession.

Is Carlyle not responsible for their preparation and, in effect, their effort and determination? It doesn't matter what system, or strategy, Carlyle pulls out of his bag of tricks if some players are tired of hearing it. 24/7 was just a glimpse but the guy did seam like a big-headed goon (imo)

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Worst game i've seen in a long time. Snore fest and we got annihilated.

Let's stay positive folks. So far, we are battling it out with the other cellar dwellers like Buffalo and the Canes. Our chances of obtaining McDavid are looking pretty good.

Just 2 games though with 80 more to go. Anything could happen.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Replacing half the roster with worse players doesn't mean jack ****.

What were our big acquisitions to turnaround a 23rd place team? Roman Polak? ****ing idiots running this organisation.

Its only those expecting great things who are disappointed. What did you guys expect?Bottom six players DO NOT make a hockey team. Your best players do. And the Leafs didnt change a single one except Gunnarrson perhaps. Did they upgrade him? NO.

But most fans saw this. Only those who refuse to see the Leafs for what they are and make excuse after excuse for them saw anything any differently. And these same guys are STILL defending this team after how many seasons of junk??????

Shanny sitting back...ready to tear it down. Giving these guys one last kick at the can before dismantling them.

Have no fear the Leafs will finish a 500 team IMO. Because thats what they are. But this continual merry go round of mediocrity has to end. GUT this garbage. Rid it of all the Brian Burke stink and lets move on with a team that is ready to compete in the modern NHL.

 

[gravyface]

maybe that is why they tried a swarm defence last year and fast break offence

they just don't have enough guys that can win 1v1 battles and handle the cycle.

Pretty much, yeah.

I mean, look at the top 6 we typically ice: they're all soft on the forecheck 80% of the time; this immediately translates into soft plays in their own end. The swarm was Carlyle's response to this: gang up on the forechecker in the corner and hope that one of our two players comes up with the puck.

 

[The Caveman]

I'm hoping that they blow up the lines for tonight. Would love to see Holland moved up to see what he can do with JVR and Kessel. Give all 4 lines close to equal ice.

JVR-Holland-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Clarkson
Komo-Bozak-Kozun
Winnik- Santo-Panik or Frattin

 

[paulhiggins]

#freecoltonorr

 

[Faltorvo]

Its only those expecting great things who are disappointed. What did you guys expect?Bottom six players DO NOT make a hockey team. Your best players do. And the Leafs didnt change a single one except Gunnarrson perhaps. Did they upgrade him? NO.

But most fans saw this. Only those who refuse to see the Leafs for what they are and make excuse after excuse for them saw anything any differently. And these same guys are STILL defending this team after how many seasons of junk??????

Shanny sitting back...ready to tear it down. Giving these guys one last kick at the can before dismantling them.

Have no fear the Leafs will finish a 500 team IMO. Because thats what they are. But this continual merry go round of mediocrity has to end. GUT this garbage. Rid it of all the Brian Burke stink and lets move on with a team that is ready to compete in the modern NHL.

Some people just don't get it, do they?

Some folks screaming, "where are the big acquisitions"?

my answer to that is simple

"With what cap space"?

Big players = big cap hits

we already had to fill the bottom of the roster with 1/1.5m reclamation projects because we had no cap space.

This core is way over paid and under producing.

 

[Faltorvo]

Pretty much, yeah.

I mean, look at the top 6 we typically ice: they're all soft on the forecheck 80% of the time; this immediately translates into soft plays in their own end. The swarm was Carlyle's response to this: gang up on the forechecker in the corner and hope that one of our two players comes up with the puck.

Now the list of players I'm about to post have qualitys and skill but you tell me, who on this list is good at separating players from the puck and board battles.

Kessel- does not even try
Butters, err Bozak - ppft, soft as butter
Gardiner- who me? pfft, I skate fast with puck, that ain't my job, see kessel and butters as refferences
Kadri- I try but I ain't built for that
Rielly- see kadri
Kozun-see above
Lupul- is medium at best

 

[therealkoho]

80-2-0

Are ya feeling it

 

[Suntouchable13]

It could be worse. We could be Colorado who haven't even scored a goal yet in 2 games

 

[Trapper]

Are people still expecting different results from the same core?
Now we are not going to play this bad all season. Skilled players will get hot and we will run into lousy teams in 82 games. But the core can't get it done. The past is a great predictor of future behaviour.
You are seeing the same team leaders.
There were positives from game 1 so win or lose game 2 you should have expected a team that was fighting for a home ice win. What you saw was the same 2-12 bad team from last year. They just don't have it as a group.
The coach should NOT have to raise your compete level for game 2 on home ice in the season. Maybe game 64 but not motivate you for game 2.
Until this core is changed we are not winning.