Speculation: What do YOU want to DO with #TWO?

[KINGS17]

Byfield, Byfield, Byfield.

BTW, did I mention Byfield?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Byfield, Byfield, Byfield.

BTW, did I mention Byfield?

Had to finally do this

 

[No Name The Nameless]

I'm for trading down to 3 and taking who's left. I'm 50/50 as to who I'm taking anyways.

 

[No Name The Nameless]

Byfield's Cons list have hockey Iq and "doesn't use his size" at the top of his list.
At the top of his positives list are size /speed.

His greatest positives are mitigated by his greatest negatives.

BIG
- Doesn't use it.

FAST
Processing speed slows down his actual speed.

That scares the poopies out of me. I've watched a ton of footage on Byfield and I can see those concerns. He doesn't use his size. He just doesn't.
He turns the puck over way too much. He doesn't lead the break well. He has great difficulty when other players are as big or as fast as him. He bumbles the puck.

He scares me guys.

 

[crassbonanza]

I think Byfield has more top end speed than Stutzle. I agree that overall Stutzle is an incredible skater and better than Byfield because his agility is ridiculous. But it's important to also factor in strength and power. Byfield is unique in this aspect and far and away better in this regard. Also if you focus on scoring and generating in transition, Byfield is so dominant in that aspect of the game. Nobody in this draft is better in that particular aspect of the game than Byfield is. And that's what I was responding to.

Also when I think about the types of forwards in the Avs system there is quite a bit of powerful forwards. Mack, Rants, Landy, Burkovsky, Nishushkin, etc...

I definitely agree that Byfield is great once he gets up to speed and is amazing scoring off of the rush. You are right that he might have more top end speed, but Stutzle's acceleration/agility and ability to make plays at speed really reminds me of that MacK/Makar type of player. I think he fits that mold much more than Byfield.

 

[Rusty Batch]

I definitely agree that Byfield is great once he gets up to speed and is amazing scoring off of the rush. You are right that he might have more top end speed, but Stutzle's acceleration/agility and ability to make plays at speed really reminds me of that MacK/Makar type of player. I think he fits that mold much more than Byfield.

Just remember that one of the crucial aspects of Macks game is that he has one of the best wrist shots in the league. Hes a constant danger to score from range whether that's on the PP setting up as the trigger man, or on the rush where he really takes a shoot first mentality that forces defenders to respect him.

 

[crassbonanza]

Just remember that one of the crucial aspects of Macks game is that he has one of the best wrist shots in the league. Hes a constant danger to score from range whether that's on the PP setting up as the trigger man, or on the rush where he really takes a shoot first mentality that forces defenders to respect him.

Well, that's a different argument. We are talking about skating ability and making plays at top speed. Stutzle has a pretty weak shot and that is my one area of concern regarding him, so I wouldn't compare that to MacK at all.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Byfield's Cons list have hockey Iq and "doesn't use his size" at the top of his list.
At the top of his positives list are size /speed.

His greatest positives are mitigated by his greatest negatives.

BIG
- Doesn't use it.

FAST
Processing speed slows down his actual speed.

That scares the poopies out of me. I've watched a ton of footage on Byfield and I can see those concerns. He doesn't use his size. He just doesn't.
He turns the puck over way too much. He doesn't lead the break well. He has great difficulty when other players are as big or as fast as him. He bumbles the puck.

He scares me guys.

Totally fair but again remember we're talking about a guy practically a hockey year younger than every other top draftee at a critical development age and he was doing it on a road apples team.

The guy was forced to be mr. everything.

If you were to run the same hardcore critique on Stutzle, I could scare you about him, too.

 

[King'sPawn]

Byfield's Cons list have hockey Iq and "doesn't use his size" at the top of his list.
At the top of his positives list are size /speed.

His greatest positives are mitigated by his greatest negatives.

BIG
- Doesn't use it.

FAST
Processing speed slows down his actual speed.

That scares the poopies out of me. I've watched a ton of footage on Byfield and I can see those concerns. He doesn't use his size. He just doesn't.
He turns the puck over way too much. He doesn't lead the break well. He has great difficulty when other players are as big or as fast as him. He bumbles the puck.

He scares me guys.

Not to pick on you, but have you watched complete games of his?

Keep in mind he plays 20+ minutes in all siatuations, which is Kopitar-like usage.

 

[cyclones22]

Well, that's a different argument. We are talking about skating ability and making plays at top speed. Stutzle has a pretty weak shot and that is my one area of concern regarding him, so I wouldn't compare that to MacK at all.

It's actually not a bad comparison in that it took MacKinnon 4 seasons to develop his shot. He shot 10% his rookie season then 7.3, 8.6 and 6.4% before jumping up to 13.7% in his Hart nomination season and staying just 11% the two season since. He's found his goal scoring touch now. That's really my only fear with Stutzle, will his shot improve as he matures and gets stronger. He's getting a lot of shots as mentioned in a Pronman scouting report, so I like that at the very least he's aggressive in looking for his shot and not just deferring all the time.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Well, that's a different argument. We are talking about skating ability and making plays at top speed. Stutzle has a pretty weak shot and that is my one area of concern regarding him, so I wouldn't compare that to MacK at all.

It's a lot easier to make plays at speed when defenders have to respect your wrist shot. Players can't give space to MacKinnon, they have to challenge him as he approaches the slot. And when you have that much speed that's a dangerous thing to do. Furthermore, When a defender faces a two on 1 against MacKinnon you run a serious risk if you play the pass.

Part of being dangerous in transition isn't just the ability to skate it's about forcing defenders to challenge you.

One of Byfields greatest strength is his ability to shoot and pass at high speed in transition. Makes it really difficult to defend him.

 

[crassbonanza]

It's a lot easier to make plays at speed when defenders have to respect your wrist shot. Players can't give space to MacKinnon, they have to challenge him as he approaches the slot. And when you have that much speed that's a dangerous thing to do. Furthermore, When a defender faces a two on 1 against MacKinnon you run a serious risk if you play the pass.

Part of being dangerous in transition isn't just the ability to skate it's about forcing defenders to challenge you.

One of Byfields greatest strength is his ability to shoot and pass at high speed in transition. Makes it really difficult to defend him.

I think we are just discussing different things. Byfield is great on the rush, but he is a straight line player. He lacks elite agility to move east/west and his acceleration is not the greatest. Making plays at top speed is about more than just rush chances, go watch that first playoff round when Makar made the Avs for an example. They are playing at a high tempo in the offensive zone, forcing defenders to fall out of position and creating prime scoring opportunities. That is the skill set that Stutzle has.

 

[LAKings88]

I think Byfield can dangle based on highlight footage.

I think Kopi is a good comparable.
Stutzle is more like Marner than MacKinnon.

 

[Rusty Batch]

I think we are just discussing different things. Byfield is great on the rush, but he is a straight line player. He lacks elite agility to move east/west and his acceleration is not the greatest. Making plays at top speed is about more than just rush chances, go watch that first playoff round when Makar made the Avs for an example. They are playing at a high tempo in the offensive zone, forcing defenders to fall out of position and creating prime scoring opportunities. That is the skill set that Stutzle has.

I was specifically addressing a line from someone that said speed and scoring in transition and named those as reasons to pick Stutzle, so I have been trying to stick with that.

He also brought up Colorado and when you you look at Colorado forwards it's interesting to note that it is a uniquely powerful group of forwards who almost without exception have very good shots. Even if you want to look at Makar who is a dman that skates great. He also has an incredible shot. And I think this is a big part of the reason why they are so dangerous in transition. So many of them are finishers.

 

[crassbonanza]

I was specifically addressing a line from someone that said speed and scoring in transition and named those as reasons to pick Stutzle, so I have been trying to stick with that.

He also brought up Colorado and when you you look at Colorado forwards it's interesting to note that it is a uniquely powerful group of forwards who almost without exception have very good shots. Even if you want to look at Makar who is a dman that skates great. He also has an incredible shot. And I think this is a big part of the reason why they are so dangerous in transition. So many of them are finishers.

This may be my fault then, because I thought we discussing the fast play of the Avs which includes transition as well as playing in their own zone. I think I was focusing on the Avs part too much. If it is solely a discussion of transition, Byfield may have the advantage because he is amazing on the rush. However, as for playing at speed in all zones, Stutzle has the advantage hands down. That's why some scouts believe he has the highest potential of anyone in this draft. His skating and hands are absolutely top notch.

 

[Rusty Batch]

This may be my fault then, because I thought we discussing the fast play of the Avs which includes transition as well as playing in their own zone. I think I was focusing on the Avs part too much. If it is solely a discussion of transition, Byfield may have the advantage because he is amazing on the rush. However, as for playing at speed in all zones, Stutzle has the advantage hands down. That's why some scouts believe he has the highest potential of anyone in this draft. His skating and hands are absolutely top notch.

And while I don't 100% agree with you, I understand where you are coming from. And just in terms of comparing the two players. You have one coming from a pretty obscure professional league. And one who comes from a well known junior league (I recognize the OHL is worse than the DEL) and in the OHL Byfield scored more ppg then guys like Stamkos, Seguin, Svechnikov, and those are just other names that I saw in the top 20 OHL scorers in the last 20 years. And he's about as young as it gets for a draft year.

I've watched as much as I really can on both of them. But I have a problem with a lot of the critiques on Byfield as they seem to be really misguided. Some of the things that I have heard about Byfield is that he has:
Low Hockey IQ
Doesn't use his size
Has mediocre agility and acceleration.
He bobbles picks too often.
Bad motor.

Boy that's a lot of obstacles to overcome and still put up arguably the best stats in the draft while being almost a full year younger then most of the top prospects.

I think the reality is that the only way you would pick a guy like Stutzle over Byfield is if Byfield actually has all these problems. Because the physical talent, production, age combo is so uniquely rare that you should never pass on a prospect like that unless there was a ton of red flags. But it doesn't add up to me. And I'm no professional scout so I could easily be wrong.

 

[KINGS17]

Well, that's a different argument. We are talking about skating ability and making plays at top speed. Stutzle has a pretty weak shot and that is my one area of concern regarding him, so I wouldn't compare that to MacK at all.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't limit the discussion to these aspects of Byfield's game. When it comes time to shoot the puck or pass, Byfield uses superior skating speed and changes of direction to get his own shot, and it's a hell of a shot.

 

[crassbonanza]

And while I don't 100% agree with you, I understand where you are coming from. And just in terms of comparing the two players. You have one coming from a pretty obscure professional league. And one who comes from a well known junior league (I recognize the OHL is worse than the DEL) and in the OHL Byfield scored more ppg then guys like Stamkos, Seguin, Svechnikov, and those are just other names that I saw in the top 20 OHL scorers in the last 20 years. And he's about as young as it gets for a draft year.

I've watched as much as I really can on both of them. But I have a problem with a lot of the critiques on Byfield as they seem to be really misguided. Some of the things that I have heard about Byfield is that he has:
Low Hockey IQ
Doesn't use his size
Has mediocre agility and acceleration.
He bobbles picks too often.
Bad motor.

Boy that's a lot of obstacles to overcome and still put up arguably the best stats in the draft while being almost a full year younger then most of the top prospects.

I think the reality is that the only way you would pick a guy like Stutzle over Byfield is if Byfield actually has all these problems. Because the physical talent, production, age combo is so uniquely rare that you should never pass on a prospect like that unless there was a ton of red flags. But it doesn't add up to me. And I'm no professional scout so I could easily be wrong.

So, is your argument that Byfield has no flaws whatsoever? I do think that Byfield has issues of not using his size, I've seen him struggle in the corners against much smaller defensemen. I do think that he has average acceleration/agility, especially in comparison to Stutzle. I don't think this means he is a bad prospect or is not worthy of the 2nd overall pick, I just believe that Stutzle has aspects where he is better than Byfield. You(and seemingly everyone else) seem to be portraying him as the perfect prospect without a single issue, while focusing on all of the flaws with Stutzle. In fact, I've read numerous people knock Stutzle for playing in the DEL, for being German, for having a bad shot, for playing on big ice. I mean, people on here believe that the only reason he is even considered at 2 is a Canadian media conspiracy mixed with prospect fatigue. I have yet to see much of any critiques regarding Byfield and any those are met with harsh rebuke.

I would be extremely happy with either prospect, but I feel like I have to defend Stutzle here because he is being treated as a shit prospect and that is just not the case. I mean, you can't even comprehend a way that any team would even consider Stutzle over Byfield, as if this is not even a close call.

 

[crassbonanza]

Perhaps, but I wouldn't limit the discussion to these aspects of Byfield's game. When it comes time to shoot the puck or pass, Byfield uses superior skating speed and changes of direction to get his own shot, and it's a hell of a shot.

Do you think Byfield has superior skating speed and change of direction when compared to Stutzle? I think it is arguable that Byfield has a faster top end speed, but I think Stutzle has a clear advantage agilitywise.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

And while I don't 100% agree with you, I understand where you are coming from. And just in terms of comparing the two players. You have one coming from a pretty obscure professional league. And one who comes from a well known junior league (I recognize the OHL is worse than the DEL) and in the OHL Byfield scored more ppg then guys like Stamkos, Seguin, Svechnikov, and those are just other names that I saw in the top 20 OHL scorers in the last 20 years. And he's about as young as it gets for a draft year.

I've watched as much as I really can on both of them. But I have a problem with a lot of the critiques on Byfield as they seem to be really misguided. Some of the things that I have heard about Byfield is that he has:
Low Hockey IQ
Doesn't use his size
Has mediocre agility and acceleration.
He bobbles picks too often.
Bad motor.

Boy that's a lot of obstacles to overcome and still put up arguably the best stats in the draft while being almost a full year younger then most of the top prospects.

I think the reality is that the only way you would pick a guy like Stutzle over Byfield is if Byfield actually has all these problems. Because the physical talent, production, age combo is so uniquely rare that you should never pass on a prospect like that unless there was a ton of red flags. But it doesn't add up to me. And I'm no professional scout so I could easily be wrong.

I mean if Byfield DOES have all these problems and is still doing what he's doing against his peers, imagine what a few years development could turn him into. Can teach a guy to use his size, skate better, puck handle and make puck moves. Man, a raw ball of clay outscoring other superstar prospects in their draft years, and he's that flawed? Let's go!

 

[Rusty Batch]

So, is your argument that Byfield has no flaws whatsoever? I do think that Byfield has issues of not using his size, I've seen him struggle in the corners against much smaller defensemen. I do think that he has average acceleration/agility, especially in comparison to Stutzle. I don't think this means he is a bad prospect or is not worthy of the 2nd overall pick, I just believe that Stutzle has aspects where he is better than Byfield. You(and seemingly everyone else) seem to be portraying him as the perfect prospect without a single issue, while focusing on all of the flaws with Stutzle. In fact, I've read numerous people knock Stutzle for playing in the DEL, for being German, for having a bad shot, for playing on big ice. I mean, people on here believe that the only reason he is even considered at 2 is a Canadian media conspiracy mixed with prospect fatigue. I have yet to see much of any critiques regarding Byfield and any those are met with harsh rebuke.

I would be extremely happy with either prospect, but I feel like I have to defend Stutzle here because he is being treated as a shit prospect and that is just not the case. I mean, you can't even comprehend a way that any team would even consider Stutzle over Byfield, as if this is not even a close call.

I'm not making the argument that Byfield has no flaws. I'm mainly making the argument that his obvious physical talents combined with his age and production is incredibly unique.

The only problem I have with Stutzle playing in the DEL is that it's hard to find comparables statistically. So I don't really know if his production is all that impressive. I do know that Byfields is, there have been a long list of prospects from the OHL so it's easy to look and see that where Byfield ranks among them is incredibly impressive.

I don't think I'm going to convince anyone who already has their mind made up on the two prospects based on my ability as a scout to break down specific things like "bad hockey Iq "and doesn't use his size" so I will just point to the production and where that ranks in the last 20 years from a very well known league. He's doing something incredibly well and I have a funny feeling that both of these things can't be true.

 

[crassbonanza]

I'm not making the argument that Byfield has no flaws. I'm mainly making the argument that his obvious physical talents combined with his age and production is incredibly unique.

The only problem I have with Stutzle playing in the DEL is that it's hard to find comparables statistically. So I don't really know if his production is all that impressive. I do know that Byfields is, there have been a long list of prospects from the OHL so it's easy to look and see that where Byfield ranks among them is incredibly impressive.

I don't think I'm going to convince anyone who already has their mind made up on the two prospects based on my ability as a scout to break down specific things like "bad hockey Iq "and doesn't use his size" so I will just point to the production and where that ranks in the last 20 years from a very well known league. He's doing something incredibly well and I have a funny feeling that both of these things can't be true.

Remember when people are using those critiques, they are comparing him to the elite. They are saying that relative to the other high end prospects he is lacking in these departments. I think there is pretty widespread belief that he is in the 2nd tier of prospects along with Stutzle, I don't think that is a slight at all. Also, since you are talking about production, do you think that Rossi should be in consideration for 2nd overall? His production was even beyond QB last season.

 

[King'sPawn]

Do you think Byfield has superior skating speed and change of direction when compared to Stutzle? I think it is arguable that Byfield has a faster top end speed, but I think Stutzle has a clear advantage agilitywise.

Stutzle has superior agility, but I think it's due to the momentum Byfield generates moving forward.

I simply think the gap in potential between Byfield and Stutzle is bigger than the gap in current abilities.

 

[No Name The Nameless]

I mean if Byfield DOES have all these problems and is still doing what he's doing against his peers, imagine what a few years development could turn him into. Can teach a guy to use his size, skate better, puck handle and make puck moves. Man, a raw ball of clay outscoring other superstar prospects in their draft years, and he's that flawed? Let's go!

You can't teach what's in the head. The ability to think through pressure and predict pressure is the sole skill that separates good from great players. I don't think he will be GREAT. I want a guy who has the best chance of being elite. I'm 50/50 as to who is number two.

 

[No Name The Nameless]

Not to pick on you, but have you watched complete games of his?

Keep in mind he plays 20+ minutes in all siatuations, which is Kopitar-like usage.

I'm not a guru. Frankly I'm a below average hockey guy. I'm no scout. However, I've never missed a game since 2003 and I'd wager I've seen enough pros and cons clips, plus the big games that he's been involved in live.

I'm just petrified of guys that look like they are thinking out there. Yes, he's 7 months younger than the average draft eligible player but hockey Iq is something that you know from a very early age.

Again, I'm 50/50 here.