What do you think Ken Holland does if we miss the playoffs?

[Wood Stick]

I think an impact trade needs to happen. Complete rebuilds suck. I think the city of Detroit needs a good team personally, and with the new arena, fans in their seats. I'd be okay with re-signing Vanek. I think right now, you need that major impact trade without giving up our first rounder. I hate to say this, but maybe trading AA and bringing in a big up and coming defenseman. Also wouldn't hate one of those deals where we bring in a centre with complimentary pieces similar to how Dallas did so with Jason Spezza.

I would do Petr Mrazek based for Justin Faulk. Blockbuster trade tbh. Carolina has a great D core coming up.

 

[HIFE]

Why wouldn't he be in hot water, though? I think it's pretty clear that they wanted to take the streak into the new building. That's all in jeopardy because of Holland, and to boot he's spending the most in the league to do it. That's a complete failure.

But I think it's a misconception that ownership is super loyal to Holland. Mike might have been, but is Chris? I'm not convinced. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Wings seem to care a lot more about treading water and making money the last couple of years, and Ken has found himself making bad value desperation moves to keep the franchise doing those things.

Man your thought process on the reality is so clear, well said. Ownership takes some blame for our situation but Holland could have been a lot more honest if it was impossible for him to remain competitive. LCA has been in the works for years, he's had time to prepare. Definitely a failure on Holland's part for squandering the cash, misleading the fans and possibly owners. He really isn't a GM. He's a scout who had HOF coaches and players fall into his lap. I don't know if he's managed a day in his life.

I think an impact trade needs to happen. Complete rebuilds suck. I think the city of Detroit needs a good team personally, and with the new arena, fans in their seats. I'd be okay with re-signing Vanek. I think right now, you need that major impact trade without giving up our first rounder. I hate to say this, but maybe trading AA and bringing in a big up and coming defenseman. Also wouldn't hate one of those deals where we bring in a centre with complimentary pieces similar to how Dallas did so with Jason Spezza.

I would do Petr Mrazek based for Justin Faulk. Blockbuster trade tbh. Carolina has a great D core coming up.

As you guys are saying don't put it past Holland. He is desperate as **** he knows it. The Alfredsson signing was sort of huge entering the eastern conference, it garnered some much needed attention. I think he'll do whatever it takes to try and stay .500.

 

[Dotter]

Man your thought process on the reality is so clear, well said. Ownership takes some blame for our situation but Holland could have been a lot more honest if it was impossible for him to remain competitive. LCA has been in the works for years, he's had time to prepare. Definitely a failure on Holland's part for squandering the cash, misleading the fans and possibly owners. He really isn't a GM. He's a scout who had HOF coaches and players fall into his lap. I don't know if he's managed a day in his life.



As you guys are saying don't put it past Holland. He is desperate as **** he knows it. The Alfredsson signing was sort of huge entering the eastern conference, it garnered some much needed attention. I think he'll do whatever it takes to try and stay .500.

Actually, by a direct quote from Alfie himself, he stated he had a direct man-to-man promise to Mike Ilitch (Red Wings owner) that he would come back to Detroit if he decided to play another year in the NHL. Ultimately he did decide to retired, but he gave Mr. Mike Ilitch his word that if he were to play again, he would play for him (Detroit).

Sounds to me it's Mike Ilitch wanting these guys. He also gushed to get Mike Madono and romanced him like crazy. But for whatever reason, it's Ken Holland that gets blamed for these signings.

 

[Claypool]

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Wings seem to care a lot more about treading water and making money the last couple of years, and Ken has found himself making bad value desperation moves to keep the franchise doing those things.

Bad value desperation moves would include trading for guys like Myers or Phanuef when the team was well past contending. Holland stood pat on not trading bluechip prospects or first round draft picks, something a very desperate Holland would love to do.

He already outlined his strategy going forward many times: remain competitive while the young players (hopefully) get better and take over the team once the old guard moves on. They aren't treading water for the fun of it.

 

[HIFE]

Actually, by a direct quote from Alfie himself, he stated he had a direct man-to-man promise to Mike Ilitch (Red Wings owner) that he would come back to Detroit if he decided to play another year in the NHL. Ultimately he did decide to retired, but he gave Mr. Mike Ilitch his word that if he were to play again, he would play for him (Detroit).

Sounds to me it's Mike Ilitch wanting these guys. He also gushed to get Mike Madono and romanced him like crazy. But for whatever reason, it's Ken Holland that gets blamed for these signings.

I've read the recent discussions and still don't believe Illich flying to Suter's farm proves he knows a whole lot about hockey. Baseball sure but I doubt one of their family can even tie a pair of skates. You bring up some good points about an owners role in a franchise but it's Holland tarnishing his own legacy.

As a businessman do you deal financially with criminals or extremists who you cannot respect morally? Probably not. It's not about money or having a job, pride is much more valuable. Holland is his own man, not just a drone acting out the signals of his master. He has the power to sell the Illich's a plan, problem is I don't think he has one. Extending stone hands Luke 5 years for no reason is an example of where Holland's brain is at- nowheresville.

 

[HIFE]

...He already outlined his strategy going forward many times: remain competitive while the young players (hopefully) get better and take over the team once the old guard moves on. They aren't treading water for the fun of it.

The argument is that the Wings are failing. An AHL quality game and bizarre win in Florida yesterday changes nothing. If the "directive" is to make the PO's Holland has a lot of ground to cover. He should be panicking. I will laugh my ass off if we do the exact opposite as advised by the fans and instead pick up another veteran piece to help try and scrape into the post-season.

 

[Claypool]

The argument is that the Wings are failing. An AHL quality game and bizarre win in Florida yesterday changes nothing. If the "directive" is to make the PO's Holland has a lot of ground to cover. He should be panicking. I will laugh my ass off if we do the exact opposite as advised by the fans and instead pick up another veteran piece to help try and scrape into the post-season.

As I've already highlighted there have been plenty of opportunties in prior seasons to make these so called panic trades to bring in players like Meyers or Phaneuf to save the playoff run. So why didn't they happen then?

This is what he said last season approaching the trade deadline:

"We're trying to push for a playoff spot, but we're trying to push for a playoff spot with young people," Holland said. "I think that's the direction that we've got to go.

"We had a foundation in the '90s, we've had a foundation in the 2000s and we're in the process of trying to build a foundation of players ... we need picks. We think that the depth is the young people in our organization and I think you can see what's gone on here over the last 12 months."

So why do you believe now all of a sudden he'd throw his plan in the garbage for short-term gains? If they did make any trades, I assume it involves players like Tatar, Nyquist, Smith, Sheahan, Jurco, etc. I don't think anyone here has a problem shipping those dudes out.

 

[obey86]

Do you honestly believe that this roster has a significantly better chance at winning a Cup than Toronto or Buffalo? I don't.

And that's just the present. Going forward, I definitely have more faith in the direction of Toronto, and maybe even Buffalo, than in Detroit.

I wasn't saying the wings did or didn't have a better chance than those teams.

Just saying that if the wings get a top 5 pick this offseason the entire rest of the roster Isn't completely bare like it was for those teams meaning the wings can jump back into playoff contention much faster. The wings already have a lot of good support players, they just need the heavy lifters.

That being said, I dont think buffalo is going to be as good as everyone thinks. However I do think Toronto is going to be legit, possibly as soon as next season.

 

[obey86]

I wasn't saying the wings did or didn't have a better chance than those teams.

Just saying that if the wings get a top 5 pick this offseason the entire rest of the roster Isn't completely bare like it was for those teams meaning the wings can jump back into playoff contention much faster. The wings already have a lot of good support players, they just need the heavy lifters.

That being said, I dont think buffalo is going to be as good as everyone thinks. Their roster outside of a few players is incredibly mediocre IMO. I see them more as a Colorado or Edmonton than I do a team on the brink of breaking out. But who knows. However I do think Toronto is going to be very very good and sooner than people think, possibly as soon as next season.[/QUOTE]

 

[Heaton]

Why do you think Toronto is going to be better than Edmonton?

 

[jkutswings]

I agree that Detroit has more supporting pieces than Toronto or Buffalo did when they started.

But only needing one "heavy lifter" to return to contention?

Contending for a playoff spot, sure. But they need 2-3 CORE pieces to get anywhere near a Cup.

Larkin and Mantha could be very good, but even if they both pan out, they need one more center that's at least as good. Plus a top defenseman. That doesn't all get fixed in one draft.

I honestly think that Detroit needs at least 2 very high picks - or success by another means in getting two players of that caliber - to have a real shot at another Cup.

 

[ricky0034]

I agree that Detroit has more supporting pieces than Toronto or Buffalo did when they started.

But only needing one "heavy lifter" to return to contention?

Contending for a playoff spot, sure. But they need 2-3 CORE pieces to get anywhere near a Cup.

Larkin and Mantha could be very good, but even if they both pan out, they need one more center that's at least as good. Plus a top defenseman. That doesn't all get fixed in one draft.

I honestly think that Detroit needs at least 2 very high picks - or success by another means in getting two players of that caliber - to have a real shot at another Cup.

why?

they need a 1C for sure but if Larkin were to pan out and become one I don't see why they would "need" another,most cup teams don't have two #1 Centers

you can get perfectly fine 2Cs in free agency,the Wings even just grabbed one this year in Nielsen

 

[Frk It]

why?

they need a 1C for sure but if Larkin were to pan out and become one I don't see why they would "need" another,most cup teams don't have two #1 Centers

you can get perfectly fine 2Cs in free agency,the Wings even just grabbed one this year in Nielsen

Eh, depends. Ideally if your 1C isn't a ppg guy or better, you want your 2C to be more of a 1B. Kind of like Bergeron and Krejci. I like Larkin a lot, but would be nice to have another guy so we don't have all our eggs in 1 basket. Like McDavid/Draisaitl, Monahan/Bennett, etc. That type of nice young center core.

The teams that have done it with a mediocre 2C, like Chicago with Handzus, also had completely stacked defenses to compensate. And elite wingers like Kane and Hossa. Or we did it with technically Filppula as our 2C IIRC, but we had Lidstrom, Raflaski, Kronwall. And two ppg selke caliber forwards on the first line. So basically massive talent everywhere else and yeah, you can make it work.

So we either need another high end center, or multiple high end defenseman. IMO. It's 2 or 3 more pieces however you wanna slice it.

 

[Run the Jewels]

why?

they need a 1C for sure but if Larkin were to pan out and become one I don't see why they would "need" another,most cup teams don't have two #1 Centers

you can get perfectly fine 2Cs in free agency,the Wings even just grabbed one this year in Nielsen

I don't have strong feelings on where Larkin tops out at. He could very well be a #2C and in that case perhaps we are still in need of an elite 1C. If you get that player and you have Larkin as a real good 2C then you have excellent depth. The Pens have obviously done real well with two excellent centers. They got rid of Stahl who also provided excellent depth because it was overkill.

The point being the odds of us getting into a situation like the Pens where you have 2 #1Cs is incredibly unlikely to happen. Even if it did you can clearly make it work and put both guys on the same line on the PP or late in games where you are playing from behind and trying to tie the score.

 

[Frk It]

The way we're trending I could see us picking Mittelstadt, maybe.

Two American centers in our top 6? Sign me up

 

[Wood Stick]

Why do you think Toronto is going to be better than Edmonton?

I think more players would like to play in Toronto than Edmonton personally despite the taxes. Players have requested trades from Edmonton due to the weather before. I think RNH is gone in the next year.

Eh, depends. Ideally if your 1C isn't a ppg guy or better, you want your 2C to be more of a 1B. Kind of like Bergeron and Krejci. I like Larkin a lot, but would be nice to have another guy so we don't have all our eggs in 1 basket. Like McDavid/Draisaitl, Monahan/Bennett, etc. That type of nice young center core.

The teams that have done it with a mediocre 2C, like Chicago with Handzus, also had completely stacked defenses to compensate. And elite wingers like Kane and Hossa. Or we did it with technically Filppula as our 2C IIRC, but we had Lidstrom, Raflaski, Kronwall. And two ppg selke caliber forwards on the first line. So basically massive talent everywhere else and yeah, you can make it work.

So we either need another high end center, or multiple high end defenseman. IMO. It's 2 or 3 more pieces however you wanna slice it.

I agree. Dylan Larkin could be a faster David Krejci. If you get 2 60 point top six centres you're good. You have to build strong depth though. To be fair, Jonathan Toews has never been an elite C and they've won.

I don't have strong feelings on where Larkin tops out at. He could very well be a #2C and in that case perhaps we are still in need of an elite 1C. If you get that player and you have Larkin as a real good 2C then you have excellent depth. The Pens have obviously done real well with two excellent centers. They got rid of Stahl who also provided excellent depth because it was overkill.

The point being the odds of us getting into a situation like the Pens where you have 2 #1Cs is incredibly unlikely to happen. Even if it did you can clearly make it work and put both guys on the same line on the PP or late in games where you are playing from behind and trying to tie the score.

I think Larks becomes a top 10 C someday. Mantha is a top line forward. We need another big C piece though as Frans isn't the youngest guy around and we're talking 3 years from now.

 

[KasperTheGrittyGhost]

I think more players would like to play in Toronto than Edmonton personally despite the taxes. Players have requested trades from Edmonton due to the weather before. I think RNH is gone in the next year.



I agree. Dylan Larkin could be a faster David Krejci. If you get 2 60 point top six centres you're good. You have to build strong depth though. To be fair, Jonathan Toews has never been an elite C and they've won.



I think Larks becomes a top 10 C someday. Mantha is a top line forward. We need another big C piece though as Frans isn't the youngest guy around and we're talking 3 years from now.

This is exactly why I wanted Rubstov over Cholo in the last draft. I have no idea what Cholowski pans out as in the NHL, but Rubstov has all the tools to be a very good #2 center.

 

[jkutswings]

I don't have strong feelings on where Larkin tops out at. He could very well be a #2C and in that case perhaps we are still in need of an elite 1C. If you get that player and you have Larkin as a real good 2C then you have excellent depth. The Pens have obviously done real well with two excellent centers. They got rid of Stahl who also provided excellent depth because it was overkill.

The point being the odds of us getting into a situation like the Pens where you have 2 #1Cs is incredibly unlikely to happen. Even if it did you can clearly make it work and put both guys on the same line on the PP or late in games where you are playing from behind and trying to tie the score.

This. I also see Larkin as a great 2C, or at best a very fringe 1C. Getting a true first line center to go with him and (hopefully) Mantha would put the forwards in a great place.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

This is exactly why I wanted Rubstov over Cholo in the last draft. I have no idea what Cholowski pans out as in the NHL, but Rubstov has all the tools to be a very good #2 center.

Meh. I'd take fabbro over all

 

[DetroitRed]

The thing about "rebuilding on-the-fly," is that the rebuilding part tends not to work very well, until, ultimately, the "on-the-fly" part breaks down. And that's the phase they are in now: no longer on-the-fly, yet not rebuilt, either.

What will Kenny do? I don't think Ken will really stay the course. Rather, I think he will either double down on his Ken Holland-ing the team to destruction, or he will retire. But neither of those are really options here.