Friedman: Weegar extension with CGY likely to be similar to Hampus Lindholm extension (8 years, 6.5 M per)

[madmike77]

It’s fine for the Flames. They’re going for it for the next 4-5 years. I expect there will be some pain after that with all the long-term deals, but at that point they would likely be rebuilding anyway.

 

[zeroG]

So much panther copium here

Barkov is making 10 till he's 38

this is factually incorrect. his deal kicks in this year and he just turned 27.

barkov is also a completely different player.

anyway, nobody's bitter about weegar and huby signing with the flames. we'll miss them and wish them well.

 

[blankall]

Find me a Stanley Cup champion team from the last 12 years that wasn't loaded with top 5 or top 10 draft picks. I think the ONLY team in that span to win without a 1st or 2nd overall pick in a draft is St. Louis. The draft is very much the key to winning, as well as finding highly drafted players that need a change of scenery.

If you're suggesting moving forward, the draft isn't the way, then I am not sure how you imagine these teams will come together. You need star players typically on entry-ish or bridge-type deals supplemented with effective players making bigger current dollars.

No. You just can't rely on getting 3-4 top 3 picks anymore as the draft rules have changed. They changed in 2016. No teams have drafted their stars since then. You aren't going to draft a team with Malkin, Crosby, and Fleury..and then get another chance with J. Staal. That's no the way it works anymore. Under the new rules, you're lucky to get one star and then you have to build. The future champions will be more St. Louis and less Pittsburgh.

Sutter is also totally capable of coaching a team with the talent of the Flames, especially in the new league with more parody, to victory.

 

[madmike77]

calgary has a 2-3 year window then its gonna look terrible.

I’d say 4-5 years then terrible. But ideally that’s kind of what you want. Contend, then tank and reload. The Flames haven’t really followed that model, but I think the long-term deals will force them to.

 

[DJJones]

I think the argument could be made either way which is why it's really close. Franchise vs star vs superstar.

Huberdeau definitely ranks above Tkachuk probably near unanimously but it's close. O think Tkachuk will probably maintain his current level for most of that 8 years. O imagine Huberdeau ends up a 2nd line player the back half of his contract. Again, remaining close. But it's all hypothetical. It's hard to gauge value while including contract status, team goals, futures...etc. so many points if discussion are valid.

I think Florida has a shot at replacement above value with 7-8M (Weegar cap hit + difference between Hub and Tkachuk) for a RHD, but we'll see what they do. The potential is there. Or they get another top 6 F.

Call them whatever you want really, I more-so had a problem with calling Tkachuk a franchise player while Huberdeau a top line. Honestly after watching Tkachuk and Gaudreau I don't think any of them are franchise players.

Gotta be Ovechkin/Iginla level to be franchise level as a winger imo.

And sure, Huberdeau will likely fall off in 5 years from the top 10-20 wingers. That's future us problem.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

With the core players Markstrom, Tanev, Kadr, and Huberdeau all over 30, the next two years are realistically the window.
This signing fits that window.
Realistically no management team would have done a rebuild after winning the Division last year so you can see the logic in trying to compete now.

 

[CgyFlamesftw]

HF where Gaudreau and tkachuk weren’t considered star players but since leaving are now superstars. While huberdeau top 3 winger in game past few years isn’t a superstar since joining the flames.

 

[Yepthatsme]

exactly what i said too earlier, all these salty/copium Flames fans lol...other than the Blues the rule is pretty clear

Blues are exception

You can hope you are an exception too

It's not literally impossible, just very, very improbable

The truth is ‘not being able to win without superstars’ is usually revisionist history, as those players weren’t considered superstars until they won. A lot of perceptions change around players like that, so it’s more or less they aren’t superstars until they are. If you were just listing parts, a team with second leading in scoring in the NHL last season, a 40 goal 1C that was second for the Selke, and the goaltending duo that would’ve won the Jennings last year without a weird stipulation, that sounds like a team with more than a few superstars. You have teams like the Blues for sure, but also have teams like Washington when Ovechkin “wasn’t a player who could win” until he did and that team didn’t have any superstars after him.

The other point is that while the Stanley cup winner has had its fair shares of superstars, the other Stanley cup finalist in recent years haven’t had almost any to speak of. Before Tampa, it has been a mix of Montreal, Dallas, Boston, Vegas, Nashville etc. Not exactly a group laden with superstars, just with a good group of top end players or very good depth. Goes to show they aren’t required to go far, and they’ve usually beat out teams with superstars to get there.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

You do realize that in Ekblad's 8 year career he's only finished in the top 15 in Norris trophy voting once. Weegar, now a Flame, finished in the top 15 twice.

Very convincing argument ya got there.
So we should just judge every player from their first 2-3 years in the league?

He's a top ~15 D in the league right now.
Your takes are something else.

 

[BlueBaron]

Good times in Calgary.

So it seems like the have a spare dman. Who is getting shipped out?

 

[blankall]

While it is false as to being the "only" way, it is certainly still possible.
The Lightning were kind of an exception to the rule since a lot of their success came from later draft picks stepping into major roles but they certainly still had those top end draft picks in both Stamkos and Hedman.
The Avs were also lucky in that they were still able to bottom feed for a few years after drafting a superstar in MacKinnon. Nate didn't break out right away and they were able to also draft Rantanen and Makar fairly high.
Personally I see a New Jersey being a similar powerhouse 3-4 years from now because like Colorado they were still able to acquire high end prospects despite already drafting major core pieces like Hughes.

On the other hand even though they did not win any cups I think Vegas and Nashville are perfect examples of cup caliber teams that did not completely rely on tanking and drafting high to get superstars

Exactly. Tampa and Colorado are both still benefiting from the old draft rules, somewhat, but are really a hybrid of the old tank vs. the new build a team via solid moves models.

Colorado, IMO, is also not a model of how to do anything. They fell ass backwards into having a successful team despite multiple awful moves and no clear direction. They have been trying to compete for a long time, and fell flat on their faces multiple times through that process. Both times they dipped into being so bad they received super high picks, they happened to pick up MacKinnon and Makar. They are certainly not a model for the burn it down and tank for many years model. They have been trying to retool since they left Quebec (and have succeeded multiple times now).

 

[Rubi]

Very convincing argument ya got there.
So we should just judge every player from their first 2-3 years in the league?

He's a top ~15 D in the league right now.
Your takes are something else.

The original statement was: "Weegar has to be one of the most overrated players in the league."
My sarcastic response was: "No that's Ekblad"

If Weegar is overrated then Ekblad is surely in that category too. Ekblad is good. So is Weegar. Neither is overrated in my opinion

 

[94 Oil Drops]

It's a good move. Weegar has los of potential and it could turn into a very cap friendly deal.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

The original statement was: "Weegar has to be one of the most overrated players in the league."
My sarcastic response was: "No that's Ekblad"

If Weegar is overrated then Ekblad is surely in that category too. Ekblad is good. So is Weegar. Neither is overrated in my opinion

Your apology is acknowledged but not forgiven

 

[94 Oil Drops]

Wait, so all those posters on here who said Florida won that trade because "Calgary only gets 1 year of Huberdeau and 1 year of Weegar" were horribly, embarrassingly, pathetically wrong?

Florida gets 8 year of Tkachuk and a 4th...........and Calgary gets a 1st, a prospect, 8 years of Huberdeau, and 8 years of Weegar????

Sheesh. What a killing for Calgary.

Yeah... anyone who thinks Florida won that trade is out to lunch.

 

[playasRus]

Call them whatever you want really, I more-so had a problem with calling Tkachuk a franchise player while Huberdeau a top line. Honestly after watching Tkachuk and Gaudreau I don't think any of them are franchise players.

Gotta be Ovechkin/Iginla level to be franchise level as a winger imo.

And sure, Huberdeau will likely fall off in 5 years from the top 10-20 wingers. That's future us problem.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Are you saying that Florida lost this trade because Tkachuk is not a franchise player and is only a top line player? Because my rebuttal would, yes he is only a top line player but will likely remain so for the totality of his 8 year contract.

Calgary also got a top line player for a discount for one year, then a top line player for "market price" at 10.5M for 3-4 years before his play drops off a little from a 90 pt player (his pace the last 4 seasons minus this past year of 115).

So that's a top line player who scores 70-75 pts for 8 years, for a top line player who scores 90-95 for 5 years. Not a terrible trade for Florida, if I'd say so myself.

 

[Rubi]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Are you saying that Florida lost this trade because Tkachuk is not a franchise player and is only a top line player? Because my rebuttal would, yes he is only a top line player but will likely remain so for the totality of his 8 year contract.

Calgary also got a top line player for a discount for one year, then a top line player for "market price" at 10.5M for 3-4 years before his play drops off a little from a 90 pt player (his pace the last 4 seasons minus this past year of 115).

So that's a top line player who scores 70-75 pts for 8 years, for a top line player who scores 90-95 for 5 years. Not a terrible trade for Florida, if I'd say so myself.

I'd say you were right if it was just Tkachuk for Huberdeau... but then Florida went the extra mile and gifted Calgary Mackenzie Weegar, Cole Schwindt, and a 1st round draft pick.

 

[Haatley]

With the core players Markstrom, Tanev, Kadr, and Huberdeau all over 30, the next two years are realistically the window.
This signing fits that window.
Realistically no management team would have done a rebuild after winning the Division last year so you can see the logic in trying to compete now.

Huberdeau is 29 for the entirety of this season. Weegar turns 29 in January. In case you don't get what I'm saying... they are both under 30.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Huberdeau is 29 for the entirety of this season. Weegar turns 29 in January. In case you don't get what I'm saying... they are both under 30.

Yes. I didn’t mention Weegar. Good catch on Huberdeau though.
My point still stands. It’s an old core.

 

[DJJones]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Are you saying that Florida lost this trade because Tkachuk is not a franchise player and is only a top line player? Because my rebuttal would, yes he is only a top line player but will likely remain so for the totality of his 8 year contract.

Calgary also got a top line player for a discount for one year, then a top line player for "market price" at 10.5M for 3-4 years before his play drops off a little from a 90 pt player (his pace the last 4 seasons minus this past year of 115).

So that's a top line player who scores 70-75 pts for 8 years, for a top line player who scores 90-95 for 5 years. Not a terrible trade for Florida, if I'd say so myself.

I said I don't think either are franchise players but Huberdeau is better

Giving up that much assets for some possible advantage 5 years from now makes no sense to me but sure.

Hell, trade Weegar for an RFA or a couple firsts. Probably have a better chance of getting that points premium in 5 years.

 

[blankall]

Call them whatever you want really, I more-so had a problem with calling Tkachuk a franchise player while Huberdeau a top line. Honestly after watching Tkachuk and Gaudreau I don't think any of them are franchise players.

Gotta be Ovechkin/Iginla level to be franchise level as a winger imo.

And sure, Huberdeau will likely fall off in 5 years from the top 10-20 wingers. That's future us problem.

Sutter doesn't need a Crosby. All he needs is another Kopitar. Huberdeau set a record for assists from a LW. He's more than capable of providing the primary offence.

 

[Haatley]

Yes. I didn’t mention Weegar. Good catch on Huberdeau though.
My point still stands. It’s an old core.

26 year old Lindholm
25 year old Mangiapane
24 year olds Andersson, Hanifin and Kylington
23 year old Dube
24 year old Vladar.

Some very good prospects as well. It's not all doom and gloom. That is a large part of the core - 26 and under.

 

[blankall]

Yes. I didn’t mention Weegar. Good catch on Huberdeau though.
My point still stands. It’s an old core.

The Flames are aware of the age of their core. Hence why they want to win now and have set themselves up for 3-4 year window.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

26 year old Lindholm
25 year old Mangiapane
24 year olds Andersson, Hanifin and Kylington
23 year old Dube
24 year old Vladar.

Some very good prospects as well. It's not all doom and gloom. That is a large part of the core - 26 and under.

Yep. Some good pieces but the next two years is really the window with the older core pieces.

 

[deckercky]

Exactly. Tampa and Colorado are both still benefiting from the old draft rules, somewhat, but are really a hybrid of the old tank vs. the new build a team via solid moves models.

Colorado, IMO, is also not a model of how to do anything. They fell ass backwards into having a successful team despite multiple awful moves and no clear direction. They have been trying to compete for a long time, and fell flat on their faces multiple times through that process. Both times they dipped into being so bad they received super high picks, they happened to pick up MacKinnon and Makar. They are certainly not a model for the burn it down and tank for many years model. They have been trying to retool since they left Quebec (and have succeeded multiple times now).

And MacKinnon only has his generous contract because he signed longterm after a disappointing couple seasons, after which he promptly broke out.

What the Avalanche did well was decide valuable pieces were expendable and moved them out. O'Reilly, Duchene and Barrie were all moved out for value and they happened to hit a couple home runs.