Friedman: Weber could be traded to a team looking to hit the salary floor

[Jumptheshark]

Do teams have to be under the cap during the offseason?

They can be like 20% over

 

[GAGLine]

Do teams have to be under the cap during the offseason?

They have to be under the cap + 10%, but LTIR can still be used in the offseason. Basically, their non-LTIR players need to be under the cap + 10 %. During the season, the 10% goes away.

 

[Colezuki]

Not sure I understand completely what you are saying but there is no penalty to the Wild if they acquire Weber (regardless of him retiring or not). I'm assuming you are talking about cap recapture? That is basically math. In his first 4 seasons with the Preds, he was paid $14M x 4 years where his cap hit was $7.86M for those 4 years. That's a total cap advantage of $24.6M which is the cap recapture. $14M - $7.86M (x4). Bettmam warned teams from circumventing the cap but some still did it and when the next CBA came out, they introduced the cap recapture. It's actual salary - cap hit and if the player retires early, the recapture penalty is divided into how many years they retire early. With the Preds, they are on the hook for a total of $24.6M (divided by how many years he retires early). Then in the latest CBA, they altered the rules where the year/year cap recapture penalty can't be more than the Cap hit.

After the this season, the Habs have a potential of cap recapture as well. I think it's a total of $857k.

* If Weber retires this summer, the Preds have $6.15M of cap hits for 4 years (Habs have $214k)
* If Weber retires after next season or any other season after that, the Preds have $7.857M of cap hits for 1-3 years (Habs have none)

The cap recapture only applies to the Preds and Habs. If a team trades for Weber, there is no advantage (none). The only time you see those LTIR contracts being moved is where teams want to save money (cap hit vs actual salary) and reach the cap floor or try to get an asset by doing it.

Everything you wrote above is right, but what about the other direction, if he retires but the wild always had a negative balance do they get the difference as a positive? that's where my brain went

 

[Habs Halifax]

If they are using LTIR cap space, any performance bonuses that are earned get deferred to the following year. So that's one reason to dump Weber's contract.

There was a report that Montreal plans to be active in free agency this summer.

Yes, the other part is ELC performance bonuses do get automatically deferred to the next season's cap. But that part is not a major problem. Cap friendly shows potential performance bonuses for the Habs next year at $850k. It's only usually a problem when you have a star on your hands and is on his ELC.

The report that the Habs have plans to be active in UFA this summer has to be taken with a grain of salt. It's possible they trade Petry for futures or a smaller contract and then try to make a move on Letang but lets face it. What top UFA's are going to sign with the Habs and are they really going to spend to the max cap? I very much doubt that

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Players on LTIR still count against the cap. It's not circumvention. They are using LTIR as it is defined in the CBA. It's not the first time they have done it and it probably won't be the last.



It has nothing to do with smaller teams. The rule is the rule. That's how LTIR works.



They don't need to activate him. They just need to be under the cap with all of their other players, which they absolutely will be. Arizona won't be anywhere close to the cap ceiling and therefore won't generate LTIR cap space. To Arizona, him being on LTIR will be no different than if he were on regular IR. In both cases, it frees up a roster spot. They would need to be within 7.9 mil of the cap ceiling (including Weber's cap hit) to increase the cap ceiling. They won't be.

To trade a player on LTIR, he first must be activated. Im asking a general question, that only starts their daily cap hit not that their entire season cap hit / previous hit on LTIR has to be compliant.

Montreal has 6.9 million of unused LTIR hit. But activate Weber's 7.8 million and they are none cap compliant by 900k. Point being that they could send down / waive someone with a 900k+ contract and be okay or would they be okay because once Weber comes off LTIR only his 39k daily cap hit count and Montreal wouldnt have to make any subsequent moves?

Same scenario for Gardiner or any other team who is on LTIR. It would be a little bit tougher for Carolina as they have used up 2.3 million of Gardiner's LTIR.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Everything you wrote above is right, but what about the other direction, if he retires but the wild always had a negative balance do they get the difference as a positive? that's where my brain went

No, it's don't work in reverse. I had that same thought years ago and it was confirmed. It only works in the negative way. Not the positive way. If it did, it would mess up the 50/50 revenue split and escrow.

Think about the escrow impacts to when the Preds were paying Weber $14M but his cap hit was $7.86M? A very complicated escrow formula that changes year to year when you factor in all the math on the actual salary vs cap hits for all players. Players hate the escrow but it's really the only way to balance out the 50/50 revenue split as time moves from season to season.

Like or Hate Bettman, he knows what he is doing in the business part. Those cap circumventing contracts were dumb and Bettman warned them

 

[Habs Halifax]

To trade a player on LTIR, he first must be activated. Im asking a general question, that only starts their daily cap hit not that their entire season cap hit / previous hit on LTIR has to be compliant.

Montreal has 6.9 million of unused LTIR hit. But activate Weber's 7.8 million and they are none cap compliant by 900k. Point being that they could send down / waive someone with a 900k+ contract and be okay or would they be okay because once Weber comes off LTIR only his 39k daily cap hit count and Montreal wouldnt have to make any subsequent moves?

Same scenario for Gardiner or any other team who is on LTIR. It would be a little bit tougher for Carolina as they have used up 2.3 million of Gardiner's LTIR.

Much easier to do in the offseason when you can go over the cap by 10%. This is why you almost never see those contracts moved during the season.

You basically just asked a question and proved why they came up with the 10% buffer. It was required for teams to manage and make moves... without totally messing up the 50/50 revenue split and escrow

 

[GAGLine]

Yes, the other part is ELC performance bonuses do get automatically deferred to the next season's cap. But that part is not a major problem. Cap friendly shows potential performance bonuses for the Habs next year at $850k.

The report that the Habs have plans to be active in UFA this summer has to be taken with a grain of salt. It's possible they trade Petry for futures or a smaller contract and then try to make a move on Letang but lets face it. What top UFA's are going to sign with the Habs and are they really going to spend to the max cap? I very much doubt that

It's hard to say. Their current cap commitment for next year is just under 80 mil, with only 15 players. 16 if Price comes back. If they don't dump the Weber contract, they will almost certainly be using LTIR next year, unless they are able to move other contracts.

But yes, their potential performance bonuses for next year are only 850k. They have a high draft pick this year. Whomever they pick will end up having significant performance bonuses, and that player could potentially play for them next year. The total wouldn't be enough to go over the bonus cushion, but it could increase the amount of rollover if some of those bonuses are earned. Either way, it's not a huge issue.

 

[CDN24]

How does it helps MTL more? They are rebuilding, Weber's cap isn't an issue at all

Agreed. Weber's contract only affects the Habs if they have plans to spend in UFA and be up against the cap where they have to move Weber's contract to LTIR before the season starts (like what Tampa did with Seabrook but today, they only have $100k of cap space that did not grow all season long).

Weber's contract may be moved but we are a bit premature on this today. Friedman is a idiot. The only team it makes sense for is the Coyotes where it helps them reach the cap floor but even without Weber's contract, they can still do other things to reach that floor. They might consider it if they rather not give term to a UFA and prefer to save money (cap hit vs actual salary).

Depending on how long it takes the Habs to rebuild and they are a playoff team, this might be something they look at moving in 2-4 years time.

The issue is if Price needs to be on LTIR also. The most you can go over the cap in the offseason before you put players on LTIR is 10% or 8.15M with an 81.5M cap. so their max offseason cap would be 89.6M

They currently have 79.8M committed to next year for 2G (price and Allen) 4D (Weber, petry , Savard Edmundson) and 11F (Gally, Anderson, Hoffman, Armia, Drouin. Dvorak, Caufield, Suzuki, Evans, Byron, Poehling,)

If we assume Price and Weber have to be on LTIR, then they need a Goalie, Romanov needs a new contract, plus 3 other D men to get to 7. Need 2 More F to get to just a 22 man roster. 89.6-79.8 used is 9.8M to do it. what about lehkonen do you want to keep him?

Obviously guys under contract may be traded and its doable but there is limited flexibility. That extra cap space would be useful too for taking on someone elses expiring bad contract at next years deadline.
So No Montreal does not need to move the contract but it gives them a whole lot more flexibility if they do.

 

[GAGLine]

To trade a player on LTIR, he first must be activated.

Who says? Was Eichel activated by Vegas when they traded for him? Clarkson wasn't activated by the Leafs when they traded for him. He spent every day of the season on LTIR, along with Horton, 2 years ago. Kucherov spent the entire year on LTIR last year.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Who says? Was Eichel activated by Vegas when they traded for him? Clarkson wasn't activated by the Leafs when they traded for him. He spent every day of the season on LTIR, along with Horton, 2 years ago. Kucherov spent the entire year on LTIR last year.

Friedman said in the article this post was associated with.

Kucherov wasnt traded. I believe Horton and Clarkson were off-season trades where activation isnt a concern.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's hard to say. Their current cap commitment for next year is just under 80 mil, with only 15 players. 16 if Price comes back. If they don't dump the Weber contract, they will almost certainly be using LTIR next year, unless they are able to move other contracts.

But yes, their potential performance bonuses for next year are only 850k. They have a high draft pick this year. Whomever they pick will end up having significant performance bonuses, and that player could potentially play for them next year. The total wouldn't be enough to go over the bonus cushion, but it could increase the amount of rollover if some of those bonuses are earned. Either way, it's not a huge issue.

It is hard to say but we will know more after the deadline and on draft day. Right now, we actually have 17 players signed with $78.9M of cap hits. If the Habs have plans to shop this summer, they are trading more than just Chiarot and Lehkonen. I can see them moving Petry and possibly Hoffman where they try to sign Letang and they don't spend more than what we are now. Something along those lines but easier said than done

We do have a high pick but there are limits to how much you can earn on a ELC. In order to get the full bonuses, that player needs to win a lot of awards and be a star. Usually only guys like Crosby, McDavid, Matthews get the max amounts. And that is a total of $2.85M extra (On top of the $925k base). That's like being top 10 in scoring, winning the rookie award, making the allstar team. Probability says that whoever we draft, they are not earning much more than $925k. The total ELC performance bonuses for all players won't reach $2M. Historical past situations stands against it

I think the new Habs management will head into next season under the cap where Weber is placed on LTIR after the season starts. Price? Who knows but I think he's going to play about 5 games at the end of the year. Bookmark it

 

[joestevens29]

I don't understand. In order for a cheap team to take advantage of paying his minimal salary while absorbing his high cap hit, wouldn't Weber have to be listed on the active roster or on IR? But because his career is done, doesn't he have to be put on LTIR, and thus not count towards the cap while insurance pays his contract?

Or would the Coyotes be allowed to just blatantly circumvent the cap floor (which is insane to even type out) by keeping a retired guy's $8m cap hit on the books while paying a fraction of that.

I'd kind of be surprised if his salary is even insured going forward. 3mil in real money next year and then 1mil a year for 3 years.

A team could probably very easily just put him on IR and be done with.

 

[Djp]

Maybe was a rule change during Covid?

I think the only team that this makes sense for is arizona with the arena situation and their time horizon Ottawa is like 2/3 years away from needing the cap. If there’s another team who goes full scorched earth rebuild and needs to hit the floor that may change it though.

also would expect an asset back but like a 6th/7th wouldn’t give up anything to do it

I believe there was some sort of change.

under prior CBA when it came to LTIR it worked like this

1. team had player on roster on season day 1 then put him on LTIR from active
2. They would sign a player or call up players against the space created by LTIR

the space created was the difference between the LTIR cap hit - the difference the total of the team was to the cap max.

If a player was at $4.5M and the team was $500,000 below the cap , the LTIR would create $4.5M-0.5M=$4.0M in space to use.

Boston did this with Savard when they had some 23 man ELCs (Krug and I think Smith). They would sent ELCs down before day 1, put savard on LTIR, then call up the ELCs against it.

Toronto did it with Marner by ahaving LTIR players on their roster totaling Marners salary. On day 1 they put those two on LTIR creating space fot hem to sign Marner on day 1.

WAITT A GOSH DARN MINUTE,

webers cap penalty is based on his contracts back diving nature. I wonder if the Minnesota angle that was brought up was originally tied to that? Like if they pay him 5 million over the next three while he’s on LTIR and he retired that may alleviate their penalty as they’d get a cap helper of 16 million?

i think the rules changed on recapture. previously the amount Nashville paid Weber before he was traded that was above the accumilated cap hit became their recapture amount.

If Weber retired this summer or was bought out Nashville would then spread that overpayment over the years left on his contract which would be 4 putting the amount around $7M per year. If this waited till the last year then this would be a balloon payment of $25M+.

i believe the league did something to eliminate the balloon payment risk. They would still have a cap penalty.

Given what was done with Richards and LA Kings, Nashville might be able to prolong this recapture over many years.

I think changes were made which allowed Tampa to do what they did last year where they didnt do the roster gymnastics of sending players down and having to call them up.

Do teams have to be under the cap during the offseason?

each team has a 10% buffer above the cap in the off season

For math simple reasons...If the cap was $85M they would operate with a $8.5M extra or $93.5M but they would need to be cap compliant on day 1 of the season.

LTIR wouldnt exist in the off season unless the team exceeded the $93.5K max.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Who says? Was Eichel activated by Vegas when they traded for him? Clarkson wasn't activated by the Leafs when they traded for him. He spent every day of the season on LTIR, along with Horton, 2 years ago. Kucherov spent the entire year on LTIR last year.

I don't believe you need to activate a guy who is on LTIR before or after a trade. They are already approved to be on LTIR for that season or point in time.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'd kind of be surprised if his salary is even insured going forward. 3mil in real money next year and then 1mil a year for 3 years.

A team could probably very easily just put him on IR and be done with.

I'm not sure how that works. It might be a insurance decision you have to make at the time of signing the contract. Otherwise, why wouldn't the Blue Jackets just decide to insure Horton after he got hurt? Maybe insurance don't allow you to cause he got hurt after and you didn't have insurance? If that part is true, it would apply to Weber as well.

My gut tells me the insurance decision is made when the contract is signed. @mouser ?

 

[abo9]

Habs have more incentive to do this if they think chance Price is on LTIR next year also. Only allowed 10% over. If both are on LTIR, Habs have to move a player. Or not sign a player

Ahhhh makes sense then. I'm no insider but 90% sure Price's career is done. Or in a limbo like Rask's was this year.

I don't understand. In order for a cheap team to take advantage of paying his minimal salary while absorbing his high cap hit, wouldn't Weber have to be listed on the active roster or on IR? But because his career is done, doesn't he have to be put on LTIR, and thus not count towards the cap while insurance pays his contract?

Or would the Coyotes be allowed to just blatantly circumvent the cap floor (which is insane to even type out) by keeping a retired guy's $8m cap hit on the books while paying a fraction of that.

Is there a rule that forces a team to put a player on IR? I mean, in 99% of cases, IR helps teams, but could they not, in theory, keep Weber off IR, the downside being they have to pay him to sit at home? I imagine that on paper, Weber would be put through waivers and "assigned to the minors", and "healthy scratched" every game?


What bugs me the most is that he should retire without worrying about Nashville's cap recapture penalty. Wasn't his contract signed BEFORE the recapture penalty put in place (I'm pretty sure his contract was one of the reasons it was put in place). Nashville and Weber were abiding by the existing rules at the time, I see no need to penalize them now for such a blatant omission in the rules.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I believe there was some sort of change.

There were no changes. What you are seeing is unique circumstances that teams exercised where it was always there but teams either didn't realize they could or didn't need to up to this point.

 

[joestevens29]

I'm not sure how that works. It might be a insurance decision you have to make at the time of signing the contract. Otherwise, why wouldn't the Blue Jackets just decide to insure Horton after he got hurt? Maybe insurance don't allow you to cause he got hurt after and you didn't have insurance? If that part is true, it would apply to Weber as well.

My gut tells me the insurance decision is made when the contract is signed. @mouser ?

It's when the contract is signed, but there is a chance they didn't insure the whole length of the deal.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Ahhhh makes sense then. I'm no insider but 90% sure Price's career is done. Or in a limbo like Rask's was this year.

Is there a rule that forces a team to put a player on IR? I mean, in 99% of cases, IR helps teams, but could they not, in theory, keep Weber off IR, the downside being they have to pay him to sit at home? I imagine that on paper, Weber would be put through waivers and "assigned to the minors", and "healthy scratched" every game?

What bugs me the most is that he should retire without worrying about Nashville's cap recapture penalty. Wasn't his contract signed BEFORE the recapture penalty put in place (I'm pretty sure his contract was one of the reasons it was put in place). Nashville and Weber were abiding by the existing rules at the time, I see no need to penalize them now for such a blatant omission in the rules.

90% sure is too high on Price. He's back on the ice and from what I see, he has discomfort that they are exploring all options to get rid of. Habs are having a bad season so no good reason why to rush him back. He's going to play games and my guess is he plays 5 games to finish the year and then continue rehab after some rest this summer and be ready for next season.

Follow the timeline:
* Plays unreal during the playoffs (probably taking pain killers to block the discomfort)
* Clean up surgery this summer (not a major surgery)
* Habs have a horrible season where it makes zero sense to rush him back in this mess.
* He starts ramping up to get ready again right before the Olympics but once the Olympics are canceled for NHL players, Price stops rehab again.
* He's back on the ice again and trying to play some games before the season ends. This is important to Price... multiple reports out there on that too.

Weber will be on LTIR next year but I think the Habs management will manage their cap this season where they only place Weber on LTIR after the season starts. Maybe they are having conversations with the Coyotes now about a trade (maybe not) but I doubt the Habs spend to the max cap and put Weber on LTIR before the season starts. The likely want to accrue cap space again next year. This is an advantage at the deadline and for a rebuilding team, I don't see them overlooking this part.

Weber don't care about the Preds. His decision to retire or not is about him and his family. I do believe he collects his $3M next year but thinks about it the year after when it drops to $1M. Might not want to go through LTIR protocol year to year for 3 years when he has earned $125M (before tax) in his career.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's when the contract is signed, but there is a chance they didn't insure the whole length of the deal.

Ah k. I understand.

 

[powerstuck]

How does it helps MTL more? They are rebuilding, Weber's cap isn't an issue at all

Originally I was replying to a poster staying Habs don't have to pay. All we know is that it's the Habs who put Weber on market. I doubt Arizona or another team explicitly called about him.

Not saying there would be no interest, but it's so minimal that wether Weber stays with Habs or ends up being traded is not even a droplet of water into an ocean.

 

[abo9]

90% sure is too high on Price. He's back on the ice and from what I see, he has discomfort that they are exploring all options to get rid of. Habs are having a bad season so no good reason why to rush him back. He's going to play games and my guess is he plays 5 games to finish the year and then continue rehab after some rest this summer and be ready for next season.

Follow the timeline:
* Plays unreal during the playoffs (probably taking pain killers to block the discomfort)
* Clean up surgery this summer (not a major surgery)
* Habs have a horrible season where it makes zero sense to rush him back in this mess.
* He starts ramping up to get ready again right before the Olympics but once the Olympics are canceled for NHL players, Price stops rehab again.
* He's back on the ice again and trying to play some games before the season ends. This is important to Price... multiple reports out there on that too.

Weber will be on LTIR next year but I think the Habs management will manage their cap this season where they only place Weber on LTIR after the season starts. Maybe they are having conversations with the Coyotes now about a trade (maybe not) but I doubt the Habs spend to the max cap and put Weber on LTIR before the season starts. The likely want to accrue cap space again next year. This is an advantage at the deadline and for a rebuilding team, I don't see them overlooking this part.

Weber don't care about the Preds. His decision to retire or not is about him and his family. I do believe he collects his $3M next year but thinks about it the year after when it drops to $1M. Might not want to go through LTIR protocol year to year for 3 years when he has earned $125M (before tax) in his career.

Those are valid points. Based on the location of his injuries, accumulation of them and his mileage as a workhorse starter, though, I still think he's at best trying a comeback next season until the inevitable happens.

He's a fighter, he's a fierce competitor, and my favorite Habs growing up, favorite goalie growing up too, but it seems like he's battling his body falling apart more than anything...

 

[Habs Halifax]

Those are valid points. Based on the location of his injuries, accumulation of them and his mileage as a workhorse starter, though, I still think he's at best trying a comeback next season until the inevitable happens.

He's a fighter, he's a fierce competitor, and my favorite Habs growing up, favorite goalie growing up too, but it seems like he's battling his body falling apart more than anything...

I'm more like 75/25 in favor of him playing again. I do think they will have difficulty getting rid of his discomfort and he can only play 50-55 games with playoffs. From what I can tell, he has 2 good years left and he does not want to go on LTIR or retire.

No doubt about it, he has a lot of mileage and wear on his body. But I do think he has some gas left but if you had limited gas left, would you consume that in this season? I wouldn't. My guess is he plays about 5 games to finish the year and then takes some rest before he gets ready for next season.

 

[HABitual Fan]

In the offseason I can see a team like Arizona making a deal with Montreal for a late pick for Weber and the final year of Jake Allen with Montreal retaining 50%, who they can flip retaining 50% for a better pick or prospect to a team needing a low salaried experienced backup goalie at 700k like Edmonton or Toronto. Montreal saves about 9M in caproom in the deal as well.