Post-Game Talk: We suck - Leafs lose 4-1

Havoc

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Jul 25, 2009
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IMO as an outside observer, if that had happened.......you're probably in the Finals at least once out of the past few seasons with a possible cup win.

No Tavares and those deals equals 17-ish million in cap space. You can do a LOT to your bottom 6 and D with 17 million.
meh too much "what if" and fantasy here. Giving credit where it's not due since we don't know and never will know what moves would have happened under this structure.

For example, we had all 3 playing elite hockey on ELC's and still didn't win a round. Some of the signings with all that cap space was brutal.
 
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killer1980

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Sep 15, 2014
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It is quite simple. Everything revolves around Dubas' inability to create a team. He reminds me of buying event tickets online. You can pick your own seats or best available. I am a Dubas hater but am not as down on Tavares as everyone else. Tavares was the best available at the time but there was no thought about how he would fit into Dubas' vision of a team, assuming he had one. Tavares was never a great or fast skater, that's not his game. That is painfully obvious. He can't play the run and gun game but he tries. Dubas then signs all the next best vailable to ubsurd contracts but each one thinks they are the best on the team, again no regard for chemistry. When it all goes south, Dubas panics and goes after Thornton, Simmonds, Foligno et al because sometime somewhere they had talent. Again, he had no regard for how they would mesh into a team, let alone that they were washed up. So, there you have it a group of 20+ guys that cannot perform as one on the ice because the team was purchased off the rack not a tailor-made fit.
 
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TheOneArmedMan

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Jan 17, 2011
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Next week they return home to face Vegas, Tampa and Boston.

They're already behind the "big 3" in their division, even with a slow start for the Bolts and the Bruins having 3 games in hand. So even if they turn things around soon it's an uphill battle the rest of the season just to rise above a wild card spot, which is no guarantee either. And the reward for that is getting one of those three in the first round.

Haha God those games are going to be brutal.

those teams are all playoff teams too
 

Kurtz

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Jul 17, 2005
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I like how you make the same assumption that I worship Lou. I don’t care who you like as a GM personally. Next time be sure to include some context when you post stats like that, that’s what annoyed me. Otherwise you might as well be zeke.

Which stats of mine do you feel lack context? If anything, and as Gary has mentioned, I feel that I give too much credit to some posters here when I talk stats as I'm assuming they have at least a rudimentary understanding of stats and knowledge of recent history. Perhaps that's not the case, and I have to spoon-feed more than I already do?
 

SeaOfBlue

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Aug 1, 2013
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They needed to either sign them all to reasonable contracts or trade one of them. They did neither.
I wonder where they would be if they never signed Tavares and had Nylander at 6.5, Marner at 7.93 and Matthews at 8.934

How in the world do you genuinely believe any GM, even on a bridge, would get those guys on those deals? Short of them being significantly worse players than they were, it was never going to happen.

It is easy to be pissed off when you create completely unrealistic expectations of reality. Those are not reasonable contracts; they are insulting.
 

Ziggdiezan

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Apr 10, 2015
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Why do the Lou worshippers keep calling those who refuse to bend at his altar "Dubas cool-aid drinkers"? Who here has praised Dubas? Both were/are mediocre Leaf GMs. Grow up and learn to handle nuance.
You bring up a good point and one that really ruins conversation on this board. Like politics everything is so stratified that your either with Dubas/Keefe and therefore hate Lou/Babcock or your on the reverse 'team' There is no middle ground and posters assume your opnions if you say 1 nice thing about Dubas or 1 nice thing about Lou.

The reality is what you said. All of them have failed at their goal. They didn't bring 1 bit of playoff success and as a result all are mediocre. All made some good trades and some bad ones. All made some good signings and some bad ones. As always the truth lies somewhere in between the two radical sides
 
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Kurtz

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Jul 17, 2005
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Successive playoff appearances after dismantling the team to a dead last finish is mediocre? What a joke of a post.

Perhaps you just have terribly low expectations of yourself and others. Or perhaps you do not understand what the word "mediocre" means.

As I pointed out, Pitt and Chicago made quick turnarounds from awfulness to cups when they were gifted (courtesy lottery gods) franchise players. It's not unheard of.

Lou's performance was fine. It was not bad, nor was it good. Mediocre would be the most apt description.

Look, if you want to make yourself useful perhaps you can present a convincing argument of Lou's body of work during his tenure that made him a great GM. I'm all ears. I'll get you started - he made a good trade to get us an above-average goalie in Freddie. What else during his tenure impressed you so?
 

Ziggdiezan

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Apr 10, 2015
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Oilers Flames and Jets are a combined 10-3-2

Seeing as we skated circles around these guys even without Matthews.....there's hope?? :help:
Both teams had a pretty good offseason and added a bunch of guys who will be good in the playoffs.
 

Nineteen67

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IMO as an outside observer, if that had happened.......you're probably in the Finals at least once out of the past few seasons with a possible cup win.

No Tavares and those deals equals 17-ish million in cap space. You can do a LOT to your bottom 6 and D with 17 million.
You can potentially a goalie and number 1 D and if keep drafting and developing quality assets you have guys that can play or be used in trades.

I don’t know if they’d win, but at least they’d have a competitive chance and there would be a whole different outlook and attitude around the organisation.
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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Pajama Boy

I don't know where you get the idea that most people thought that was a horrible and unnecessary deal, but you couldn't be more wrong.

I see that you the date you joined this forum is after Tavares was signed. Perhaps you should restrict yourself to talking about things about which you actually have a clue. Go look at the archives if you don't believe me, the jubilation here on the day he was signed was almost unanimous.
 

Ziggdiezan

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Apr 10, 2015
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How in the world do you genuinely believe any GM, even on a bridge, would get those guys on those deals? Short of them being significantly worse players than they were, it was never going to happen.

It is easy to be pissed off when you create completely unrealistic expectations of reality. Those are not reasonable contracts; they are insulting.
Didnt Point sign a 6.75 million dollar bridge like right after Marner signed his contract? He is a better player in a more important position and as we know from the Matthews contract, goals are worth like 1.5 times assists
 
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Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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Perhaps you just have terribly low expectations of yourself and others. Or perhaps you do not understand what the word "mediocre" means.

As I pointed out, Pitt and Chicago made quick turnarounds from awfulness to cups when they were gifted (courtesy lottery gods) franchise players. It's not unheard of.

Lou's performance was fine. It was not bad, nor was it good. Mediocre would be the most apt description.

Look, if you want to make yourself useful perhaps you can present a convincing argument of Lou's body of work during his tenure that made him a great GM. I'm all ears. I'll get you started - he made a good trade to get us an above-average goalie in Freddie. What else during his tenure impressed you so?

Did he do the Kadri and Rielly contracts? I thought those were good deals as well. I think people are giving him way too much credit for whatever though, it would be hard to add people like Matthews, Marner etc. and not show massive improvement. He was in the right place at the right time and he did a pretty good job overall IMO. Talking about him as if he's some sort of demi god who can do no wrong though, I just don't get it. The team was poised to take a giant step forward no matter who took over as GM, anyone not getting this just doesn't have a clue.
 

RavenGuard

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Feb 20, 2020
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You can potentially a goalie and number 1 D and if keep drafting and developing quality assets you have guys that can play or be used in trades.

I don’t know if they’d win, but at least they’d have a competitive chance and there would be a whole different outlook and attitude around the organisation.


Well as an Oilers fan that basically had a roster like yours last year, top heavy with sub par players filling out the roster I can 100% see exactly what $20 million in cap space to get legit bottom 6 players can do for the team. We'll see how the season goes for the Oilers but on the ice right now it's absolutely night and day. A competent bottom 6 is crucial in today's NHL.
 

Nineteen67

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How in the world do you genuinely believe any GM, even on a bridge, would get those guys on those deals? Short of them being significantly worse players than they were, it was never going to happen.

It is easy to be pissed off when you create completely unrealistic expectations of reality. Those are not reasonable contracts; they are insulting.
Those were the ballpark numbers floating around pre-Tavares and a good GM would have signed them all to reasonable contracts and term.
 

BrannigansLaw

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Which stats of mine do you feel lack context? If anything, and as Gary has mentioned, I feel that I give too much credit to some posters here when I talk stats as I'm assuming they have at least a rudimentary understanding of stats and knowledge of recent history. Perhaps that's not the case, and I have to spoon-feed more than I already do?

Your winning percentage stat. It's not as impressive as you make it sound given they are 3-4 years older and they played in the weak North division in a shortened season compared to the 2018 season. Both facts you left out but important when you consider context.

No need to spoon-feed. Save that slop for yourself.
 

Nineteen67

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Well as an Oilers fan that basically had a roster like yours last year, top heavy with sub par players filling out the roster I can 100% see exactly what $20 million in cap space to get legit bottom 6 players can do for the team. We'll see how the season goes for the Oilers but on the ice right now it's absolutely night and day. A competent bottom 6 is crucial in today's NHL.

The blue print is no secret. Finding the players to fit each role is tough.

Oilers will likely need a goalie to win the west. Vegas pretty much a lottery team there’s only a handful of real threats
 

Kurtz

Registered User
Jul 17, 2005
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Those were the ballpark numbers floating around pre-Tavares and a good GM would have signed them all to reasonable contracts and term.

Marner should have been bridged...but after his bridge expired this off-season he'd be a rfa coming off being 4th in the league in scoring, and he'd get paid either way this year. But he should have been bridged regardless (I said so at the time).

However Matthews was completely out of our hands. If we gave him that insulting $8m offer he'd get an offer-sheet for $14m/year from any number of American teams and we'd be screwed.
 

Kurtz

Registered User
Jul 17, 2005
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Your winning percentage stat. It's not as impressive as you make it sound given they are 3-4 years older and they played in the weak North division in a shortened season compared to the 2018 season. Both facts you left out but important when you consider context.

No need to spoon-feed. Save that slop for yourself.

You've misunderstood my posts, sadly. I never called .688 impressive, I just used it to make a point that our 105 point season was hardly anything to brag about.

You also seem to be stuck in the outdated paradigm that young teams can't be good and there's a direct correlation between aging and improvement. Perhaps that was the case last century, and certainly experience still matters in the playoffs, but in the modern NHL young players dominate.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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How in the world do you genuinely believe any GM, even on a bridge, would get those guys on those deals? Short of them being significantly worse players than they were, it was never going to happen.

It is easy to be pissed off when you create completely unrealistic expectations of reality. Those are not reasonable contracts; they are insulting.

Agreed. Matthews is a unicorn, can't complain about his contract at all IMO. The Nylander contract was about right, if we could have saved a bit there it was nothing significant. Marner is a different story, that was an obvious overpayment, the only question is the exact amount which IMO is about 2 million. A stupid mistake no question but hardly enough to cripple the franchise. I hated the deal the minute it was signed but I'll be honest and say that before the MTL series started, I had pretty much shut up about it as he was just so awesome during the regular season. But yeah, that deal pissed me off so much, it wasn't the amount of the mistake so much as the fact that it was such an obvious mistake, the only question was how much. I always thought Dubas was a really smart guy so how could he make such an obvious blunder? I have no idea. But I digress ...
 

egd27

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Perhaps you just have terribly low expectations of yourself and others. Or perhaps you do not understand what the word "mediocre" means.

As I pointed out, Pitt and Chicago made quick turnarounds from awfulness to cups when they were gifted (courtesy lottery gods) franchise players. It's not unheard of.

Lou's performance was fine. It was not bad, nor was it good. Mediocre would be the most apt description.

Look, if you want to make yourself useful perhaps you can present a convincing argument of Lou's body of work during his tenure that made him a great GM. I'm all ears. I'll get you started - he made a good trade to get us an above-average goalie in Freddie. What else during his tenure impressed you so?

  1. Tore the team to the ground including a couple of tough contracts to move
  2. Established a "team above all" culture
  3. Iced a roster with 7 rookies and ensured they were insulated with vets
  4. Went from dead last to playoffs in one year (how often has that been done?)
  5. Didn't inject himself as the "face" of franchise
  6. By year 3 iced a 105 point team.....and toss out 5 of the SO wins if you want, it's still 100 points from dead last in 2 seasons
In short, was a low key professional that didn't feel the need to try and pontificate about process and inject himself to centre stage.
 

BigGulpsEh

Registered User
Feb 20, 2017
3,147
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Management bet on the big 4 and paid a kings ransom to them

So far they've proven they can't win together.

Dubas is too stubborn and in denial to not have moved out one of the core pieces in the offseason

Fans want at minimum a 1st rd win but at this rate leafs will be out of the playoff picture by xmas

Its not not just the start to this season but all the failed playoffs the last few seasons.

Its time for a serious shake up in the org

Shanny and dubas should not be in charged to determine what the next steps are
 

Azail

Registered User
Oct 11, 2017
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Good for Freddie that he's looking good early in the season, but to me his time with the Leafs was at an end and it was still the right move to not bring him back.
I think most people thought that he was done here based on how it ended for him last season.

But I think it just shows how little spine the Leafs players have. Freddy let's in a horrible goal yesterday 3 minutes into the game. What does Carolina do? Sulk and give up? No they just continue to play their game and dominate the Leafs.

When Freddy let in a bad goal last year with the Leafs, it was like the whole team would deflate.
 

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