We have the 9th overall right now.

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Inf4mous0ne

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Jan 28, 2010
1,887
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1)So what your saying is I'm overreacting to my points and that I what..anticipate poor moves to add to my list?

2) So other than the Bishop trade you think the moves weren't too bad? You like the current state of our management?

3) I think we are about to get into a deep draft (from what people have said) and might have one of the most overrated groups at the helm.

1) Yes, and that is how it appears.

2) No, not too bad. Could have some things been better? Sure. But there weren't many gaffes in there that keep me up at night. Yes I like management. Ownership is debatable, we'll see how the next couple of years go.

Also, St. Louis traded Rundblad before he had his big season. In 2009/10 he put up 1 goal and 12 assists (13 points) in the SHL. After we traded for him, he put up 11 goals and 39 assists (50 points). If that wasn't good anticipation by management, I don't know what is. Yes he didn't translate that right away to the NHL, but you can't fault them on making a move on a potential boom guy that another team underrated. Not only that, they traded him for fairly high value when they saw that his value was about to drop. All about your perspective I guess.

3) You can call them overrated, but they aren't bad. I'm not worried.
 

Zorf

Apparently I'm entitled?
Jan 4, 2008
4,946
1,566
Crouse please and thank you

Am I the only one who sees nothing but glaring red flags about Crouse?

I don't care that he's big. I'm beyond concerned with his point totals.

45GP, 22G, 14A for a paltry total of 36 points.

Thirty six.

For reference, Chris Neil got 55 and 72 points in his final 2 OHL years.

A top 10 pick in what is billed as the best draft in years should not be used on a guy who cannot score at the junior level. Especially when those who are expected to be drafted around him are all racking up points like it's going out of style.

I can't help but think that Lawson Crouse is the next Hugh Jessiman. For those who have no damn clue who Hugh Jessiman is, look up the 1st round of the 2003 draft.
 

BrawlFan

Registered User
Apr 17, 2009
2,938
297
Your arguments are nonsensical.

You're pretty much calling management crap for giving evaluations (while also misrepresenting those evaluations given) when asked by media. "What're your thoughts on Andre Petersson?" "Real talent, could be Spezza's line mate for a decade!" Now that it fits your argument it's "Andre Petersson will be Spezza's line mate for 10 years." Find me the Forsberg comparison at the drsft, I never heard that before. Calling Silfverberg a bad 2nd round pick is outrageous. Ditto for Lehner.

You completely ignore the context of the Tarasenko-Rundblad situation. You say they didn't do their research, which is total bs. It was known that he'd honour his KHL contract. That's why he was such a high risk. AGAIN, he was widely considered a top 5 talent in that draft yet fell to 16. What does that tell you?

As far as St Louis goes, they had an up and coming team filled with young talent and had two of the best young PMDs in the game in Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo. They were in a position to take that risk. Ottawa was not. That one is cut and dry. Murray had just taken over the draft and the cupboard was just filling up. We didn't have the ability to burn a pick on a guy that may never play in North America.

Bishop? You realize he was set to become a free agent, yes? One of your criticisms are that we let too many significant assets walk for nothing. So, what is it supposed to be? Heatley and Spezza fall into this as well. What did we get for Heatley? Well, has anyone scored more goals than Michalek in a Sens jersey since Heatley left? Calling him nothing is just ignorant.

You have legitimate beef with management, but some of these arguments are way offside and just diminish your overall argument (which I'm not sure why it belongs in this thread).

I think you need to read the definition of non-sensical but its not my job to tell people when they are using words incorrectly. I digress to the point I'm making.

Our Swedish scout at the draft called Silfverberg resembling Forseberg, there was a video on it. He left to become a coach or something. Calling him and Lehner bad second round picks is not what I'm doing, I'm calling them average and the way we reacted to them means they are clearly massively overated. The way they are both playing makes them easily replaceable and forgettable NHL players. Not something any organization should hang their hats on.

Murray was asked "Where do you see AP" his response was "On Spezz wing for the next 10 years" indicating he thought he could play wing in the NHL.....Brian Lee is now an NHL defenceman....among other quotes from someone who is wrong often.

What the Tarasenko situation tells me is that we aren't an amazing scouting organization and do not have the ability to evaluate talent and intent on a great level. Just because other teams make mistakes doesn't mean we should measure ourselves against them, we should judge against a team like St Louise who is doing a good job of selling and building, much better than our team.

I don't see how it diminishes it but I guess I don't see your point? Are you implying we are a strong drafting and evaluating team? are you somehow happy with how we complete our assessments?
 

Vesa Awesaka

#KeepTheSenate
Jul 4, 2013
18,236
25
I think you need to read the definition of non-sensical but its not my job to tell people when they are using words incorrectly. I digress to the point I'm making.

Our Swedish scout at the draft called Silfverberg resembling Forseberg, there was a video on it. He left to become a coach or something. Calling him and Lehner bad second round picks is not what I'm doing, I'm calling them average and the way we reacted to them means they are clearly massively overated. The way they are both playing makes them easily replaceable and forgettable NHL players. Not something any organization should hang their hats on.

Murray was asked "Where do you see AP" his response was "On Spezz wing for the next 10 years" indicating he thought he could play wing in the NHL.....Brian Lee is now an NHL defenceman....among other quotes from someone who is wrong often.

What the Tarasenko situation tells me is that we aren't an amazing scouting organization and do not have the ability to evaluate talent and intent on a great level. Just because other teams make mistakes doesn't mean we should measure ourselves against them, we should judge against a team like St Louise who is doing a good job of selling and building, much better than our team.

I don't see how it diminishes it but I guess I don't see your point? Are you implying we are a strong drafting and evaluating team? are you somehow happy with how we complete our assessments?

Bryan Murray should of said... Muddling around in the ahl getting injured every ten games lol
 

BrawlFan

Registered User
Apr 17, 2009
2,938
297
Do you mean young? Which drafted core pieces since 08 don't you like?

Almost everyone but Zibby.

1) Yes, and that is how it appears.

2) No, not too bad. Could have some things been better? Sure. But there weren't many gaffes in there that keep me up at night. Yes I like management. Ownership is debatable, we'll see how the next couple of years go.

Also, St. Louis traded Rundblad before he had his big season. In 2009/10 he put up 1 goal and 12 assists (13 points) in the SHL. After we traded for him, he put up 11 goals and 39 assists (50 points). If that wasn't good anticipation by management, I don't know what is. Yes he didn't translate that right away to the NHL, but you can't fault them on making a move on a potential boom guy that another team underrated. Not only that, they traded him for fairly high value when they saw that his value was about to drop. All about your perspective I guess.

3) You can call them overrated, but they aren't bad. I'm not worried.

Well I guess the gaffes that cause me countless sleepless nights don't keep you awake listening to Marilyn Manson music. I think our management is incredibly poor and can be called average if your being nice.

But fine agree to disagree I guess.
 

BrawlFan

Registered User
Apr 17, 2009
2,938
297
Bryan Murray should of said... Muddling around in the ahl getting injured every ten games lol

I would have settled for if you cant say anything nice don't say anything ridiculous. Just let him be.

But we get caught up every year in this hype machine that starts from our organization and they never live up to the hype.
 

guyzeur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2009
5,431
630
Ottawa
But all teams in the league don't proud themselves on scouting and player assessment/development. Some teams are cap teams and focus on building through pro scouting (NYR being one of those teams)

NYR have money they can go ahead and hire any UFA's or guys like Nash.

I'm not sure they would be so great with as a bottom cap floor team.

Sens Pro Scouting:
Ryan: we got him for 3 average guys?
Turris: got him in exchange for a bottom pairing
Bishop: we got him for a 2nd pick? that was great for a starter.
Anderson: top 5-10 goalie in the league
Heatley trade: Heatley kind of made it difficult for the Sens
McArthur: good UFA signing

But I think we're loosing our time because your mind is set in either blaming mngt or Murray, most likely Murray IMO.
 

Vesa Awesaka

#KeepTheSenate
Jul 4, 2013
18,236
25
I would have settled for if you cant say anything nice don't say anything ridiculous. Just let him be.

But we get caught up every year in this hype machine that starts from our organization and they never live up to the hype.

IDK about that I'm sure some people do but fact is we draft good players usually. Maybe not spectacular picks but decent ones. Karlsson was hyped just as much as Silf.. I'm not sure listening to hype means much at all aside from management liking the player.
 

BrawlFan

Registered User
Apr 17, 2009
2,938
297
NYR have money they can go ahead and hire any UFA's or guys like Nash.

I'm not sure they would be so great with as a bottom cap floor team.

Sens Pro Scouting:
Ryan: we got him for 3 average guys?
Turris: got him in exchange for a bottom pairing
Bishop: we got him for a 2nd pick? that was great for a starter.
Anderson: top 5-10 goalie in the league
Heatley trade: Heatley kind of made it difficult for the Sens
McArthur: good UFA signing

But I think we're loosing our time because your mind is set in either blaming mngt or Murray, most likely Murray IMO.

I don't think you understood my point.
 

Vesa Awesaka

#KeepTheSenate
Jul 4, 2013
18,236
25
NYR have money they can go ahead and hire any UFA's or guys like Nash.

I'm not sure they would be so great with as a bottom cap floor team.

Sens Pro Scouting:
Ryan: we got him for 3 average guys?
Turris: got him in exchange for a bottom pairing
Bishop: we got him for a 2nd pick? that was great for a starter.
Anderson: top 5-10 goalie in the league
Heatley trade: Heatley kind of made it difficult for the Sens
McArthur: good UFA signing

But I think we're loosing our time because your mind is set in either blaming mngt or Murray, most likely Murray IMO.

NYR can also make mistakes and bury them with money ie redden. We cant make huge mistakes like that.


Management generally has made low risk decisions and has played its hand conservatively.
 

BrawlFan

Registered User
Apr 17, 2009
2,938
297
IDK about that I'm sure some people do but fact is we draft good players usually. Maybe not spectacular picks but decent ones. Karlsson was hyped just as much as Silf.. I'm not sure listening to hype means much at all aside from management liking the player.

The hype machine alters attention to other actions taken/not taken by management.

And I think we draft OK players. Good players is a bit of a reach. I am not including Hoffman or Stone in your results until we see what we have and at what price. Greening looked good at one point and now he's ok.
 

HavlatMach9

streamable 3rah1
Mar 17, 2011
13,445
394
Ottawa
Taking a short look at players picked at the positions where we've selected, just getting NHLers every year puts us above the norm.
 

BrawlFan

Registered User
Apr 17, 2009
2,938
297
Anyway I have to go be dilbert for the next 2.5 hours to complete some work. Take it easy you optimists of Maine, you half-glass-fulls of New England
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
7,399
Ottawa
Am I the only one who sees nothing but glaring red flags about Crouse?

I don't care that he's big. I'm beyond concerned with his point totals.

45GP, 22G, 14A for a paltry total of 36 points.

Thirty six.

For reference, Chris Neil got 55 and 72 points in his final 2 OHL years.

A top 10 pick in what is billed as the best draft in years should not be used on a guy who cannot score at the junior level. Especially when those who are expected to be drafted around him are all racking up points like it's going out of style.

I can't help but think that Lawson Crouse is the next Hugh Jessiman. For those who have no damn clue who Hugh Jessiman is, look up the 1st round of the 2003 draft.

I'm of a similar mind. I like Crouse, see him as a future Lucic or Bickell but have a very hard time justifying his selection in the top 10 of this draft when our needs are for top line, high skill players.

I've been watching him lately and I just don't see high end skill to be a top line player. Haven't seen a ton but what I've seen isn't inspiring. The red flags are up.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
54,371
31,587
I think you need to read the definition of non-sensical but its not my job to tell people when they are using words incorrectly. I digress to the point I'm making.

Our Swedish scout at the draft called Silfverberg resembling Forseberg, there was a video on it. He left to become a coach or something. Calling him and Lehner bad second round picks is not what I'm doing, I'm calling them average and the way we reacted to them means they are clearly massively overated. The way they are both playing makes them easily replaceable and forgettable NHL players. Not something any organization should hang their hats on.

Murray was asked "Where do you see AP" his response was "On Spezz wing for the next 10 years" indicating he thought he could play wing in the NHL.....Brian Lee is now an NHL defenceman....among other quotes from someone who is wrong often.

What the Tarasenko situation tells me is that we aren't an amazing scouting organization and do not have the ability to evaluate talent and intent on a great level. Just because other teams make mistakes doesn't mean we should measure ourselves against them, we should judge against a team like St Louise who is doing a good job of selling and building, much better than our team.

I don't see how it diminishes it but I guess I don't see your point? Are you implying we are a strong drafting and evaluating team? are you somehow happy with how we complete our assessments?

A scout saying Silf resembled Forsberg is not the same as saying he has Forsberg potential. Not only that, calling Lehner and Silf average 2nd round picks shows a complete lack of understanding of what an average 2nd round pick becomes.

Just for reference, Scott cullen's data had a 2nd round pick at around 35% to play 100 games. Steven Burth had similar results . Burtch went on to look at expected pts per game for forwards, and guess what, Silf has already more than doubled what the average 2nd rounder does (his data shows a 2nd rd to produce between .1 and .2 pts per game).

Oh, and Anahiem fans a very happy with Silfverberg.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
7,399
Ottawa
Just because other teams make mistakes doesn't mean we should measure ourselves against them, we should judge against a team like St Louise who is doing a good job of selling and building, much better than our team.

Pop quiz: who has more playoff series wins since 2011 when Ottawa started rebuilding: Sens or Blues?

:sarcasm:
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,459
8,282
Victoria
NYR can also make mistakes and bury them with money ie redden. We cant make huge mistakes like that.


Management generally has made low risk decisions and has played its hand conservatively.

It's not a matter of can't, it's more that we don't want to be in that position. We chose not to compete for Redden because we knew he wasn't worth that giant contract. Anyways, no one wants to bury money now since it still counts against the cap (and for the record we are doing it with Greening).


NYR have money they can go ahead and hire any UFA's or guys like Nash.

I'm not sure they would be so great with as a bottom cap floor team.

Sens Pro Scouting:
Ryan: we got him for 3 average guys?
Turris: got him in exchange for a bottom pairing
Bishop: we got him for a 2nd pick? that was great for a starter.
Anderson: top 5-10 goalie in the league
Heatley trade: Heatley kind of made it difficult for the Sens
McArthur: good UFA signing

But I think we're loosing our time because your mind is set in either blaming mngt or Murray, most likely Murray IMO.

We would have had Nash on our team had he not used his NTC to put us on the 'no' list.


Almost everyone but Zibby.



Well I guess the gaffes that cause me countless sleepless nights don't keep you awake listening to Marilyn Manson music. I think our management is incredibly poor and can be called average if your being nice.

But fine agree to disagree I guess.

Well in a 30 team league we've been in the middle of the league, during our rebuild, simple math would dictate that we can't possibly be "incredibly poor", unless the top teams are merely decent, and the bottom teams are abject embarrassments to humanity.

Your arguments are hard to take seriously when mixed with so much emotion. Hyperbole and confirmation bias, don't mix well with logic, and balanced reasoning.

Still respect your opinions and understand that you are a passionate fan who wants team success.

p.s. I do agree with you about Zib
 

Hale The Villain

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Am I the only one who sees nothing but glaring red flags about Crouse?

I don't care that he's big. I'm beyond concerned with his point totals.

45GP, 22G, 14A for a paltry total of 36 points.

Thirty six.

For reference, Chris Neil got 55 and 72 points in his final 2 OHL years.

A top 10 pick in what is billed as the best draft in years should not be used on a guy who cannot score at the junior level. Especially when those who are expected to be drafted around him are all racking up points like it's going out of style.

I can't help but think that Lawson Crouse is the next Hugh Jessiman. For those who have no damn clue who Hugh Jessiman is, look up the 1st round of the 2003 draft.

I'd recommend staying away from statistics as a method of prospect evaluation, especially when it comes to junior hockey. However, if you have to use statistics, context is very important. He may only have 36 points, but he's one point away from leading his team. Kingston is one of the lowest scoring teams in the CHL and with Bennett/Watson out with injury he's had to play with mediocre players all year.

Benji had a great post in the Crouse thread where he compared Crouse's production to Landeskog's in his draft year, and basically showed that if you consider the quality of teams, Crouse would have over a PPG, close to what Landeskog put up in 2011.

His lack of production isn't a concern if you understand that's he's a triggerman, not a playmaker. Crouse is a huge, fast powerforward with a great shot. He's never going to be a player that is going to be setting up linemates with perfect passes and dangling through defenders, that's just not his game. Put him beside a strong playmaker and he'll put up huge goal totals, just like other forwards with a comparable skills package (Pacioretty, Neal, Nash).

I remember there were similar concerns on this forum about Landeskog back in 2011. Some were scared away from him because he didn't produce close to Huberdeau and Strome, but scouts looked beyond production and saw a player who's skills would translate well to the NHL level. Crouse is in the same boat. I suspect scouts don't see much of a gap between Crouse and Landeskog in terms of potential.

I'm of a similar mind. I like Crouse, see him as a future Lucic or Bickell but have a very hard time justifying his selection in the top 10 of this draft when our needs are for top line, high skill players.

I've been watching him lately and I just don't see high end skill to be a top line player. Haven't seen a ton but what I've seen isn't inspiring. The red flags are up.

Crouse doesn't need high end skill to become a top line player. He's huge (6'4, 215lbs), can skate like the wind, and has a fantastic shot. Those skills alone have made players into top line scorers at the NHL level. Look at the production of guys like Pacioretty, Wheeler, Ladd, Lucic, Neal in their respective junior leagues. All of them put up mediocre point totals in junior/college but are putting up top line forward numbers at the NHL level because they are built for the NHL game. Crouse has the same, if not superior skills package to all of these players, and thus has the same kind of scoring potential at the NHL level.

Put Crouse beside a top line playmaker and he'll score 30 goals while being a huge asset off the scoresheet with his great two-way game, physical play and leadership. That's a top line player.
 

benjiv1

Registered User
Mar 8, 2010
5,231
3,391
Ottawa
Am I the only one who sees nothing but glaring red flags about Crouse?

I don't care that he's big. I'm beyond concerned with his point totals.

45GP, 22G, 14A for a paltry total of 36 points.

Thirty six.

For reference, Chris Neil got 55 and 72 points in his final 2 OHL years.

A top 10 pick in what is billed as the best draft in years should not be used on a guy who cannot score at the junior level. Especially when those who are expected to be drafted around him are all racking up points like it's going out of style.

I can't help but think that Lawson Crouse is the next Hugh Jessiman. For those who have no damn clue who Hugh Jessiman is, look up the 1st round of the 2003 draft.

Well it's a good thing scouts don't just look at point totals.

Look at Zibanejad and Mika's junior totals, and then consider how bad Kingston is offensively.

Also, wasn't Jessiman drafted out of a terrible college program?
 

Hale The Villain

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I'll just leave this clip of Rantanen here:

DcOh0Yp.gif


Kid is intriguing to say the least. Extremely quick for a 6'4 forward and has great hands.
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
6,812
4,222
Ottawa
It must be because we're having such an inconsistent year, but if there's anything that this team has proven is that they have a stellar draft record and their judgement should not be second guessed. How many teams currently have 5th and 6th round picks in the top 5 for rookie scoring? How many teams have this much drafted and homegrown talent on their rosters? No matter what name they announce at the podium when it's our turn to draft I'll be excited for that player knowing that one of the league's best scouting staffs was on the job.
 

BrawlFan

Registered User
Apr 17, 2009
2,938
297
A scout saying Silf resembled Forsberg is not the same as saying he has Forsberg potential. Not only that, calling Lehner and Silf average 2nd round picks shows a complete lack of understanding of what an average 2nd round pick becomes.

Just for reference, Scott cullen's data had a 2nd round pick at around 35% to play 100 games. Steven Burth had similar results . Burtch went on to look at expected pts per game for forwards, and guess what, Silf has already more than doubled what the average 2nd rounder does (his data shows a 2nd rd to produce between .1 and .2 pts per game).

Oh, and Anahiem fans a very happy with Silfverberg.

Yeah your right we hit a homerun with that pick. No better 2nd rounders have been selected consistently by other teams. You got it.

Pop quiz: who has more playoff series wins since 2011 when Ottawa started rebuilding: Sens or Blues?

:sarcasm:

I'll answer that when you count Playoff appearances.....

It's not a matter of can't, it's more that we don't want to be in that position. We chose not to compete for Redden because we knew he wasn't worth that giant contract. Anyways, no one wants to bury money now since it still counts against the cap (and for the record we are doing it with Greening).




We would have had Nash on our team had he not used his NTC to put us on the 'no' list.




Well in a 30 team league we've been in the middle of the league, during our rebuild, simple math would dictate that we can't possibly be "incredibly poor", unless the top teams are merely decent, and the bottom teams are abject embarrassments to humanity.

Your arguments are hard to take seriously when mixed with so much emotion. Hyperbole and confirmation bias, don't mix well with logic, and balanced reasoning.

Still respect your opinions and understand that you are a passionate fan who wants team success.

p.s. I do agree with you about Zib

I'm pretty sure I've provided quite a bit of unbiased opinions on the success of our scouting staff and gaffes made by our organization. I guess I haven't risen to the level of saying "your just too emotional" which is a good platform to stand on and be self assured for some reason you've provided some sort of proof to prove me wrong. But like I said, I'll provide you with an answer if prompted by actual comments, not an assessment of my emotional state or how hyperbolic my comments are.
 
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