Post-Game Talk: Washington Hockey Team @ Actually it's a peninsula 7:07pm

[CapitalsCupReality]

Time to stop living in the past.

 

[crab]

Please.

He didn't have the talent those other coaches had to work with.

We're talking comparing the Kings and Blackhawks dynasties to Predators and Islanders.

He absolutely has an argument for best coach in the league. Top 3 at least.

He’s a great coach but I understand some of the arguments against him. He was basically the Capitals of coaches and couldn’t get out of the second round.

He had some talented teams, like this one that got eliminated in the first round Nashville Predators 2006-07 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

Lavi’s teams Carolina, Flyers and Predators were of similar quality and he got a Cup and two finals.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

First off, it was Ted's call, not Mac's. Second, TROTZ HAD A CONTRACT which he had agreed to and which Ted had negotiated in good faith. Trotz reneged and demanded more. So Ted could be his bitch or do what he did which was offer a middle ground. It's not as if Trotz won the Cup by himself. BMac had a role. The players had the biggest role.

Yeah I'm sure Ted Leonsis who got to a billion dollars in part through ******* Groupon is a completely inflexible when it comes to contracts and is a super good faith businessman and paying his FIRST TIME EVER CUP WINNING COACH more in line with what coaches of that caliber were making on would amount to BEING HIS BITCH. He must have been laughing at that dumb bitch Mario paying Mike Sullivan after he won the cup in 2016.

After Trotz left the Caps got bounced in the first round twice in humiliating fashion going up against inferior rosters, and he took the worst defensive team in the NHL that lost their superstar and missed the playoffs and made them into the best defensive team in the league that won 3 playoff rounds in the time the caps won zero. Clearly ThE PlAyErS HaD ThE BiGgEsT rOLe, especially when the exact same roster minus Jay Beagle got bounced by the friggen Canes

 

[Kuznetsnow]

Hey we wasted the 2 best chances for multiple cups in the Ovechkin era and everything but at least TED'S MOMMA DIDN'T RAISE NO BITCH! now buy those season tix when the nhl returns please

 

[HTFN]

Yeah I'm sure Ted Leonsis who got to a billion dollars in part through ******* Groupon is a completely inflexible when it comes to contracts and is a super good faith businessman and paying his FIRST TIME EVER CUP WINNING COACH more in line with what coaches of that caliber were making on would amount to BEING HIS BITCH. He must have been laughing at that dumb bitch Mario paying Mike Sullivan after he won the cup in 2016.

After Trotz left the Caps got bounced in the first round twice in humiliating fashion going up against inferior rosters, and he took the worst defensive team in the NHL that lost their superstar and missed the playoffs and made them into the best defensive team in the league that won 3 playoff rounds in the time the caps won zero. Clearly ThE PlAyErS HaD ThE BiGgEsT rOLe, especially when the exact same roster minus Jay Beagle got bounced by the friggen Canes

How dumb are you intending to play this? What happened every other year Trotz was here? More of the same? Yeah? So the players had a part in it, yes. Barry Trotz wasn't keeping pucks out of the net on his own.

Also, you live in a fantasy world. Look around the league and tell me that it isn't filled with the sport's biggest egos at every level, including the front office. If you think those guys are always just going to set that aside to do what you perceive to be the "right" thing I've got some bad news for you. It's also a lot easier to do when you've just won a Cup and don't need that win anymore, you're free to take the "lesser" choice to stick it to someone or get out of a situation you might otherwise endure. I'm not calling Trotz, like, John Tortorella or anything but he's a human being and he might not see it your way.

In fact, especially judging by his attitude post-departure, I'd say he definitely doesn't.

 

[Calicaps]

How dumb are you intending to play this? What happened every other year Trotz was here? More of the same? Yeah? So the players had a part in it, yes. Barry Trotz wasn't keeping pucks out of the net on his own.

Also, you live in a fantasy world. Look around the league and tell me that it isn't filled with the sport's biggest egos at every level, including the front office. If you think those guys are always just going to set that aside to do what you perceive to be the "right" thing I've got some bad news for you. It's also a lot easier to do when you've just won a Cup and don't need that win anymore, you're free to take the "lesser" choice to stick it to someone or get out of a situation you might otherwise endure. I'm not calling Trotz, like, John Tortorella or anything but he's a human being and he might not see it your way.

This.

But also, sports is a business first, no matter how much we wish it weren't. Being a pushover in negotiations is a bad way to run a business. And Ted has to answer to his partners. He'd be an idiot to just say, "sure we negotiated this deal, but nevermind that, you can have whatever you want!"

Hiring Reirden was clearly a bad move, but I supported it at the time because I believed--and still believe--that he was instrumental in the Cup run. I suspect Ted was pissed at Barry's demands and also thought TR was the difference-maker, and maybe he was, but in his assigned role; not as the HC. In retrospect, it was obviously the wrong choice, and thankfully they rectified it. Pretty sure we have Mac to thank for that and for having a real coach now.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

How dumb are you intending to play this? What happened every other year Trotz was here? More of the same? Yeah? So the players had a part in it, yes. Barry Trotz wasn't keeping pucks out of the net on his own.

Also, you live in a fantasy world. Look around the league and tell me that it isn't filled with the sport's biggest egos at every level, including the front office. If you think those guys are always just going to set that aside to do what you perceive to be the "right" thing I've got some bad news for you. It's also a lot easier to do when you've just won a Cup and don't need that win anymore, you're free to take the "lesser" choice to stick it to someone or get out of a situation you might otherwise endure. I'm not calling Trotz, like, John Tortorella or anything but he's a human being and he might not see it your way.

What happened every other year? Gee I dunno, they won at least a round in the playoffs? How did they do the 2 years before they hired him and the 2 years after?

It's just weird to me that all the virulent defense of Leonsis wasting the best chance they had for multiple cups in the Ovechkin era is being read from the same cue card that's so myopic and Leonsis colored he may as well have written it himself and passed it down to you to copy and paste over and over, a la the Eugene Melnyk online defense force. This was a move that was objectively terrible for the team and the fanbase, completely unforced by anything like the salary cap, virtually unprecedented and only good for settling some imaginary game of thrones office drama. And all the defense comes down to LEONSIS #1 f*** EVERYTHING ELSE

 

[HTFN]

What happened every other year? Gee I dunno, they won at least a round in the playoffs? How did they do the 2 years before they hired him and the 2 years after?

It's just weird to me that all the virulent defense of Leonsis wasting the best chance they had for multiple cups in the Ovechkin era is being read from the same cue card that's so myopic and Leonsis colored he may as well have written it himself and passed it down to you to copy and paste over and over, a la the Eugene Melnyk online defense force. This was a move that was objectively terrible for the team and the fanbase, completely unforced by anything like the salary cap, virtually unprecedented and only good for settling some imaginary game of thrones office drama. And all the defense comes down to LEONSIS #1 f*** EVERYTHING ELSE

Or, and get this, because it's wild: we objectively looked at both sides and realize there's a compelling reason to part ways once you accept that this is real life and not a video game. Sometimes it happens. I don't recall many league insiders roasting the Capitals for the move either, because it was good business sense.

For you to call it unforced is kind of stupid, too, since it was forced by its very nature. The 1 year extension was automatic. Once the conditions were met, there it was, legally binding and everything. Who forced their way out? Who actually forced that situation, and why do you think it was Leonsis for some reason?

 

[Calicaps]

Or, and get this, because it's wild: we objectively looked at both sides and realize there's a compelling reason to part ways once you accept that this is real life and not a video game. Sometimes it happens. I don't recall many league insiders roasting the Capitals for the move either, because it was good business sense.

For you to call it unforced is kind of stupid, too, since it was forced by its very nature. The 1 year extension was automatic. Once the conditions were met, there it was, legally binding and everything. Who forced their way out? Who actually forced that situation, and why do you think it was Leonsis for some reason?

It was actually an automatic 2-year extension, and I think with a raise. The team offered to make the raise larger but Barry declined. So they did the decent thing and released him. They could have held him to his commitment and denied him the chance to work somewhere else for the next 2 years.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

Or, and get this, because it's wild: we objectively looked at both sides and realize there's a compelling reason to part ways once you accept that this is real life and not a video game. Sometimes it happens. I don't recall many league insiders roasting the Capitals for the move either, because it was good business sense.

For you to call it unforced is kind of stupid, too, since it was forced by its very nature. The 1 year extension was automatic. Once the conditions were met, there it was, legally binding and everything. Who forced their way out? Who actually forced that situation, and why do you think it was Leonsis for some reason?

It was so automatic that somehow Trotz got out of it immediately. If you're trying to make it seem like you're about more than Leonsis famiru honor you're not doing a very good job of it. Which is probably for the best since if you were too good at your job Leonsis might have to let you go

 

[HTFN]

It was actually an automatic 2-year extension, and I think with a raise. The team offered to make the raise larger but Barry declined. So they did the decent thing and released him. They could have held him to his commitment and denied him the chance to work somewhere else for the next 2 years.

Oh yeesh, I thought it was just 1 year. That's even better, really, but same basic point. They did the right thing for all parties even if it set them back slightly because these people aren't just numbers, and then fixed their coaching decision fairly swiftly. You could moan about going Reirden instead of another seasoned guy right away, but he wasn't an Oates level failure and his regular season teams worked so I think they spent the appropriate amount of time standing behind their decision.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

I'm no Leonsis but the business success I've had was from being result oriented and responding to the situation on the ground as quickly and decisively as possible, effectively first mover advantage. Frequently scoffing at something one day then scrambling to overpay for it the next after seeing opportunities and landscape shift. I thumbed my nose at btc at 12k last year but don't regret paying twice as much for it less than a month later instead of falling victim to having to be right and protect clout or whatever.

Hypothetically... I own the Caps in 2018. Trotz comes to me tears up the contract and asks for 4 million. I give him 5x5 and handy for good measure and tell him to go ganeplan the cup defense like the simp cuck mcpushover that I am. Maybe carry the loss over to team budget and have my general manager recoup by say signing a league min player instead of Richard Panik. Is the team in a better place from me being a spineless weasel or no?

 

[HTFN]

I'm no Leonsis but the business success I've had was from being result oriented and responding to the situation on the ground as quickly and decisively as possible, effectively first mover advantage. Frequently scoffing at something one day then scrambling to overpay for it the next after seeing opportunities and landscape shift. I thumbed my nose at btc at 12k last year but don't regret paying twice as much for it less than a month later instead of falling victim to having to be right and protect clout or whatever.

Hypothetically... I run the Caps in 2018. Trotz comes to me tears up the contract and asks for 4 million. I give him 5x5 and handy for good measure and tell him to go ganeplan the cup defense like the simp cuck mcpushover that I am. Maybe carry the loss over to team budget and have my general manager recoup by say signing a league min player instead of Richard Panik. Is the team in a better place from me being a spineless weasel or no?

Based on how they were playing for him that year? He lasts about a year and change, they probably still get bounced in the first round. If Reirden is still around, that's your interim coach for the end of year 2 and you can f***ing bet they give him year 3 to get his head coaching shot (like they did after the Cup win).

So in my opinion, best case they're exactly where they were anyway: two playoff burnouts, looking for a coaching replacement for the beginning of the 2020-2021 season, let's call it Laviolette anyway to keep things safe.

At worst, they're now behind. It's very unlikely that they repeat, Trotz is not making it the length of your contract, and you can argue that every year spent hoping otherwise is "wasted". When they eventually do let him go, if they give his interim replacement any significant long-term coaching chance, that's basically the Reirden experience but if it started right now.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

Based on how they were playing for him that year? He lasts about a year and change, they probably still get bounced in the first round. If Reirden is still around, that's your interim coach for the end of year 2 and you can f***ing bet they give him year 3 to get his head coaching shot (like they did after the Cup win).

So in my opinion, best case they're exactly where they were anyway: two playoff burnouts, looking for a coaching replacement for the beginning of the 2020-2021 season, let's call it Laviolette anyway to keep things safe.

At worst, they're now behind. It's very unlikely that they repeat, Trotz is not making it the length of your contract, and you can argue that every year spent hoping otherwise is "wasted". When they eventually do let him go, if they give his interim replacement any significant long-term coaching chance, that's basically the Reirden experience but if it started right now.

So you're completely discounting how they came together in the playoffs perfectly playing his style and projecting the worst stretches of their (division winning) 2017-2018 regular season to become the norm for 2018-2019 regular season and playoffs?

Does Ovechkin suffer a career ending injury slipping on Trotz's bald head as well?

 

[EroCaps]

Time to stop living in the past.

It's not the past if you're using this information to retain or fire you current GM.

 

[HTFN]

So you're completely discounting how they came together in the playoffs perfectly playing his style and projecting the worst stretches of their (division winning) 2017-2018 regular season to become the norm for 2018-2019 regular season and playoffs?

Does Ovechkin suffer a career ending injury slipping on Trotz's bald head as well?

They played great, yeah, but they captured lightning in a bottle and caught breaks along the way. It was like the karma from the entire Ovechkin era was pumped into the posts of every game that entire playoffs.

So yes, I'm betting they revert to the 4 years of doing what they did, which they already did at a very competent level and didn't just suddenly figure out. I'm betting that Kuznetsov takes time to rebound from his coke thing either way, and that the team and Trotz once again reach a disconnect. Trotz (and Korn) staying might also put them in a different position with Holtby, which would probably be a mistake as well.

Unless Ovechkin loved Trotz so much that he demands to ride off into the sunset with him, he's not staying more than 2-3 years. So again, they're either in the same place or they're behind if they make the wrong call now, instead of already having learned that lesson and moving to an experienced Laviolette.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

They played great, yeah, but they captured lightning in a bottle and caught breaks along the way. It was like the karma from the entire Ovechkin era was pumped into the posts of every game that entire playoffs.

So yes, I'm betting they revert to the 4 years of doing what they did, which they already did at a very competent level and didn't just suddenly figure out. I'm betting that Kuznetsov takes time to rebound from his coke thing either way, and that the team and Trotz once again reach a disconnect. Unless Ovechkin loved Trotz so much that he demands to ride off into the sunset with him, he's not staying more than 2-3 years. So again, they're either in the same place or they're behind if they make the wrong call now, instead of already having learned that lesson and moving to an experienced Laviolette.

I'm not buying that the exact same roster minus Beagle with Trotz at the helm does worse than the freaking Islanders do that year with Trotz after losing Tavares. For one we keep Mitch Korn. It's pretty clear Trotz evolved as a coach (he brought what he had here to long island and has coached the most impressive stint in the league all things considered since) and the team started responding to him better. That comes off as a Leonsis sour grapes power fantasy. And the fact that they even had to learn the rookie coach lesson for the 5th time is depressing as shit. "Once you have success don't immediately pivot full stop and do the opposite all over again" is not a lesson people should have to learn more than once after their teenage years

Do they win a cup back to back? Maybe not with Kempny getting injured. But a stretch like Kings 2012-2014 or Chicago 2013-2015 is not out of the question if they keep their general instead of putting some guy who looks like he belongs in a sitcom as a punch line character. behind the bench.

Oh, and here's what happens if Trotz falls flat - you fire him. Within a couple days some other team picks up the tab for a cup winning coach with his reputation around the league. Same thing that would happen now if Lou had an aneurysm and fired him. Maybe you even get a 2nd round pick if the NHL still does that. But unless he pulls a babcock on some poor guy his contract is as fungible as a Rolex Hulk

 

[Calicaps]

It's not the past if you're using this information to retain or fire you current GM.

No one is considering firing Mac except you and KuzNow. And if by some bizarre happenstance, he were to get fired now, the rest of the hockey world would laugh at the Caps and he'd be re-employed within days.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

the rest of the hockey world would laugh at the Caps and he'd be re-employed within days.

clearly a move resulting in such an outcome is too obviously terrible to defend

 

[TRASHCAT]

It's not the past if you're using this information to retain or fire you current GM.

There's 0 f***ing chance he gets fired so stop arguing if he should.

 

[kicksavedave]

No one is considering firing Mac except you and KuzNow. And if by some bizarre happenstance, he were to get fired now, the rest of the hockey world would laugh at the Caps and he'd be re-employed within days.

I'd bet half a dozen teams would fire their GM just to make room to hire BMac.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

It's not the past if you're using this information to retain or fire you current GM.

it’s time to stop living in the past with regards to the pining for Trotz.

pretty sure Barry wanted a fresh start. His message was wearing thin IMO....I bet he would have lasted 2 years max before they let him go, on the hook for another 3 years.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

it’s time to stop living in the past with regards to the pining for Trotz.

pretty sure Barry wanted a fresh start. His message was wearing thin IMO....I bet he would have lasted 2 years max before they let him go, on the hook for another 3 years.

...paid by whatever team hires him the moment he hits the market just like Tortorella, Julien, Vigneault, Boudreau, DeBoer and a litany of other inferior coaches

 

[TRASHCAT]

It's like some posters don't understand most NHL teams are just some billionaires toy and the character of the owner is the source of most of the high level decisions

 

[HTFN]

...paid by whatever team hires him the moment he hits the market just like Tortorella, Julien, Vigneault, Boudreau, DeBoer and a litany of other inferior coaches

But nobody’s arguing he isn’t worth the money. His time here was just done, and the Caps aren’t realistically any better off for having kept him