Confirmed Trade: [VGK/TOR] David Clarkson and 2020 4th round pick for Garret Sparks

Intangir

Registered User
Aug 14, 2008
1,697
1,908
Montreal, QC
I'm not a lawyer or CBA specialist of any shape or form, nor do I particularly care about how this move helps the Leafs or not, but if you only get the full benefit of an LTIR contract once you're up against the cap, wouldn't it make sense that the first LTIR contract would count as capspace and thus negate the impact from the second LTIR?

It seems to me that even if you ''activate'' both LTIR contracts at the same time, one of them has to get treated before the other, thus negating the other LTIR's impact. Unless the capspace is granted at the exact time specified in the documents themselves, despite the time differences in the treatment of both demands and the order in which the league receives them, but that doesn't seem intuitive.

Say Mr. B is in charge of the cap-compliance of teams along with his staff. He receives faxes of the documents sent by the Leafs to apply for additional cap space via LTIR in the morning of the first day of the season and he drinks his coffee while looking them over. They arrived at the same time and they're stacked on his desk (or set side-by-side) by the person in charge of the faxes themselves and odd jobs in the office, he selects one, ensures the documents are complete and gets it done after a little while with his team. He then moves on the next, all while spilling another coffee, getting lunch and interacting with his colleagues. Th first one granted the Leafs the ability to overpsend by about 5M$, the second came after that and didn't grant such relief as the Leafs were then compliant

Anyways, I have no horse in this race and I'm simply wondering how it will turn.

EDIT: Looked it up, it isn't cap space generated but ability to overspend if the cap is reached, so it is quite a bit different than what I thought. Good to know.
 
Last edited:

Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
2,991
1,056
A little under $10M, not a little over $10M.

They're $2.16M over the cap as of now.

Horton and Clarkson are worth $10.55M once they're LTIRed.

Add to this the $1.4M more or less once they drop 2 contracts (Aberg/Agostino/Spezza/Holl/Marincin/Harpur ?).

That gets them to $9.8M.

Is that enough to sign Marner on a long-term deal ?

Are you claiming the Leafs aren't allowed to run with a 22 man roster which would then get them to the $10.55 that Horton and Clarkson provides LTIRed?
 

Intangir

Registered User
Aug 14, 2008
1,697
1,908
Montreal, QC
Are you claiming the Leafs aren't allowed to run with a 22 man roster?

The clearly are as I remember the Sharks a couple of years ago running with as many as 21 players on the roster and sending down players in-between games to attain maximum cap flexibility.
 

Michel Beauchamp

Canadiens' fan since 1958
Mar 17, 2008
23,013
3,206
Laval, Qc
Are you claiming the Leafs aren't allowed to run with a 22 man roster which would then get them to the $10.55 that Horton and Clarkson provides LTIRed?
Sure they could.

But the poster I quoted seemed to think that the whole $10.55M was available without any other moves...
 

biturbo19

Registered User
Jul 13, 2010
25,673
10,667
What in the actual golden f***? What is this trade. :laugh:

What a bizarre thing. Sure, it's permanently IR'd money...but the Leafs take on salary and give away their cheap backup goaltender, because why?
 

Not Sure

Registered User
Feb 8, 2016
4,918
1,146
Buffalo
I'm not a lawyer or CBA specialist of any shape or form, nor do I particularly care about how this move helps the Leafs or not, but if you only get the full benefit of an LTIR contract once you're up against the cap, wouldn't it make sense that the first LTIR contract would count as capspace and thus negate the impact from the second LTIR?

It seems to me that even if you ''activate'' both LTIR contracts at the same time, one of them has to get treated before the other, thus negating the other LTIR's impact. Unless the capspace is granted at the exact time specified in the documents themselves, despite the time differences in the treatment of both demands and the order in which the league receives them, but that doesn't seem intuitive.

Say Mr. B is in charge of the cap-compliance of teams along with his staff. He receives faxes of the documents sent by the Leafs to apply for additional cap space via LTIR in the morning of the first day of the season and he drinks his coffee while looking them over. They arrived at the same time and they're stacked on his desk (or set side-by-side) by the person in charge of the faxes themselves and odd jobs in the office, he selects one, ensures the documents are complete and gets it done after a little while with his team. He then moves on the next, all while spilling another coffee, getting lunch and interacting with his colleagues. Th first one granted the Leafs the ability to overpsend by about 5M$, the second came after that and didn't grant such relief as the Leafs were then compliant

Anyways, I have no horse in this race and I'm simply wondering how it will turn.

EDIT: Looked it up, it isn't cap space generated but ability to overspend if the cap is reached, so it is quite a bit different than what I thought. Good to know.

Yeah the cap relief is only used if its needed. It's intended to allow a team to sign another player should someone go down with injury so I dont think the order it happens is a problem. It's basically allowing the Leafs to hold $10.5 million in salary for Marner. If Marner signs for $10.5 then everything is fine, they place the two on IR then roll that cap number over to Marner, theres no extra benefit until the playoffs. Like when Kane went on IR for Chicago and they added Vermett Timonen and Dejardins with the space freed by Kanes being put on IR. Then they activated Kane for the playoffs and had a team which during the season would have been over the cap.

Edit: heres a write up https://thehockeywriters.com/tape2tape-closing-the-patrick-kane-loophole/
 

grapes55

Registered User
Sep 14, 2017
721
544
theneckguard.wordpress.com
A little under $10M, not a little over $10M.

They're $2.16M over the cap as of now.

Horton and Clarkson are worth $10.55M once they're LTIRed.

Add to this the $1.4M more or less once they drop 2 contracts (Aberg/Agostino/Spezza/Holl/Marincin/Harpur ?).

That gets them to $9.8M.

Is that enough to sign Marner on a long-term deal ?

It will be close, but I think it's very likely that they go with only 1 or 2 spares and that for home games they're sent down (since the Marlies are closeby callups are less of an issue also Babs RARELY uses his spares). By doing this we can get that extra mil or so to sign Marner
 

Michel Beauchamp

Canadiens' fan since 1958
Mar 17, 2008
23,013
3,206
Laval, Qc
Yep. They have 10.5m with a 22 man roster, no moves required.

Remember that Marner himself is a roster player once signed.
When I posted, they had $9.8M with a 23-men roster.

Thus a move was necessary.

As I write this, CapFriendly has them at $2.9M over the cap with a 23-men roster.
 

DANTHEMAN1967

Registered User
Aug 10, 2016
4,108
1,848
LTIR only affects certain teams in a positive way. The Clarkson contract for most teams including mine wouldn't be worth the hassle nor provide benefits were looking for. So for that reason why would we?
For the Leafs because of the Marner situation they can manipulate the cap to get a bit more room to squeeze him in. The spirit of the deal has nothing to do with Clarkson ever playing for the Leafs and everything to do with buying relief which was the exact intention of the back diving deals.

It's not hard to understand.

The back diving deals were created to cheat this is not the case here.
 

mouser

Business of Hockey
Jul 13, 2006
29,353
12,727
South Mountain
When I posted, they had $9.8M with a 23-men roster.

Thus a move was necessary.

As I write this, CapFriendly has them at $2.9M over the cap with a 23-men roster.

You have to adjust for the fact that two of those 23 are going to miss the first month of the season. So it’s really a 21 man roster with two more LTIR cases besides Horton and Clarkson.

Yes the math gets complicated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TooLegitToQuit

SotasicA

Registered User
Aug 25, 2014
8,489
6,404
Their cap problems are solved if Matthews suffers a season-ending injury in training camp.
 

sittler rules!!!

Registered User
Feb 9, 2004
1,203
651
Nah, most sane fans know that JT had a huge impact on Marner's play. Advanced stats back it up. Your eyes back it up if you watched too.

Leafs hit the jackpot with Tavares. It's the reason why I don't really worry what happens with Marner one way or another. We have two franchise centers.

Traded? Great, we're going to get something really good in return.
OS? Match or get 4 first round picks and still have Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Johnsson, Kapanen, Hyman etc and money to balance to roster.
Signed? Great, we have Mitch back.

The Leafs are in the perfect spot with Mitch. He can sign or he can go.
And Thank you
 

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
20,238
15,400
When I posted, they had $9.8M with a 23-men roster.

Thus a move was necessary.
Caprfriendly just does their best guess in the offseason. There is no roster yet.

There are no actual moves that have to be done.

As I write this, CapFriendly has them at $2.9M over the cap with a 23-men roster.
Because they put Hyman on Dermott on IR and brought up more players for some reason.

Which is why you can't just blindly trust the number they give without understanding it.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad