Confirmed with Link: [VAN/TOR] Canucks acquire F Sam Lafferty for 2024 5th Round Pick

[IComeInPeace]

And contrary to what Ruthervin traumapologists would have you believe, draft picks matter, even fifth round and seventh round draft picks. It's true sixth round draft picks don't matter, but we didn't give up a sixth rounder, did we?

Please tell me I read this wrong.

 

[oceanchild]

On the list of cap inefficiencies hurting the Canucks roster, Sam Lafferty making $300K more than the min ELC cap hit is so far down the list it's not even worth considering.

Bringing in impact players on ELCs matter, not depth players.

What if it’s 4 or 5 players and the average delta is $400k?

something that has bugged me from the suter signing is that by adding suter the team created a serious cap problem for itself that must have been apparent, and really they started this problem by adding blueger when they had cap issues. you don't usually sign without enough cap to dress a full roster if you add the player, and signing bottom six guys to put yourself in a cap jackpot is pretty unusual.

there was much speculation at the time a trade was in the bag to offset this cap but it turned out that was not the case because the pearson trade when it arrived still left them only able to field a 22 man roster with everyone but poolman healthy. now it looks like they have surrendered to their fate with the lafferty move by taking on another guy making more than $850k, leaving them sitting very tight against the cap at 22 unless someone goes on ltir.

and they are prepping right now like they will not put anyone on ltir.

it is a simple truth that if they had not added these two players, or had not added blueger, they could carry 23. they wanted this. it looks like they have made a major sacrifice of roster flexibility (and potentially risked losing hoglander) to get the incremental boost these players offer over and above standard $800k replacement guys.

most teams pragmatically fill in the bottom six as best they can with the budget left over and then tell the coach to make the most he can of those pieces. they do not usually seem to sweat the bottom six cap details like this, let alone accepting a smaller roster to get their bottom six guys. what they are doing seems pretty unusual to me.

i guess i need to wait another 24 hours to see what i am missing.

They didn’t expect Pearson back and thought they could LTIR him… oppsy poopsy

 

[arttk]

Please tell me I read this wrong.

Some people don’t recognize that you can make up the difference by signing undrafted / college FAs and those probably have higher hit rate than 5-7th rounders. On top of that the 5-7th rounder actually net you NHL level players.

 

[oceanchild]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

I advocate trading draft picks more aggressively than anyone. It was me that advocated trading two first round picks back at the 2020 TDL, as Petey and Hughes were on ELC's, we still had Tanev and Marky, and Edler hadn't fully aged out yet.

That team was one win short of the conference finals. Had they traded those picks, and had they hired a coach that employed a system other than "hoping your goalie bails you out" (which I also advocated for) the team would have gone to the conference finals, and possibly the Cup final.

As to why a team doesn't spend draft picks to improve another area of the team, that's because they already have players in Suter and Bleuger, not to mention the fact that a player of Lafferty's caliber can be obtained for free via UFA, with a lower cap hit. Contrary to what Benning apologists would have you believe, cap space matters. And contrary to what Ruthervin traumapologists would have you believe, draft picks matter, even fifth round and seventh round draft picks. It's true sixth round draft picks don't matter, but we didn't give up a sixth rounder, did we?

If this management group is hoping to win a Cup, they will be praised for finding a player like Gregor, who costs $400K less in cap, and didn't cost any picks; and they will be praised for moving out excess fourth liners for 5th round picks that can be leveraged/packaged with other assets between now and the TDL to improve the team, the TDL when top 4 RHD might become available. Those management groups that are doing such things are getting praise, and those management groups that are wasting assets unnecessarily will rightly be criticized.

And people will throw hissyfits when this is pointed out to them, and then resort to personal attacks. Just like in the darkest days of the Benning regime.

This team rode a hot goalie for a couple rounds. The team also had a habit of nose diving at the end of the season and missing the playoffs, which they may have done had the season not been shortened and the playoffs expanded. To extrapolate that is naive, how many Cinderella runs are repeated? Doesn’t matter if the team makes the finals or whatever round.. they don’t get repeated, because it’s a statistical outlier that reverts to the mean… the team just was not good enough and trading multiple firsts would not have fixed the issues. Plus, Demko can’t be expected to play like that every playoffs… he was playing insanely good.

 

[IComeInPeace]

Some people don’t recognize that you can make up the difference by signing undrafted / college FAs and those probably have higher hit rate than 5-7th rounders. On top of that the 5-7th rounder actually net you NHL level players.

Is that what he’s saying?

I couldn’t understand it because he says ‘5th and 7th rounders matter’, but then goes on to say ‘6th rounders don’t matter’ in the very next sentence.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

The only thing that worries me is this they might overpay for his next contract or let him walk

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

If this management group is hoping to win a Cup, they will be praised for finding a player like Gregor, who costs $400K less in cap, and didn't cost any picks; and they will be praised for moving out excess fourth liners for 5th round picks that can be leveraged/packaged with other assets between now and the TDL to improve the team, the TDL when top 4 RHD might become available. Those management groups that are doing such things are getting praise, and those management groups that are wasting assets unnecessarily will rightly be criticized.

And people will throw hissyfits when this is pointed out to them, and then resort to personal attacks. Just like in the darkest days of the Benning regime.

I legit don't understand your point, particularly as how 6th round draft picks don't matter, but 5th and 7th ones do.

But I'd much rather management make the mistake of picking up a useful player and potentially expending 'assets' than having a braindead GM expend assets and cripple the franchise for years to come.

The Canucks are not going to turn into world-class worldbeaters overnight, and handwringing over a 5th round draft pick (seriously?) for a player who can contribute is starting small and working towards something bigger and bigger.

Given that the team seems to be more focused and less running around with their pants on fire, I'd say that we're slowly starting to see results, although the standard disclaimer and skepticism of seeing how much this holds up exists.

 

[F A N]

The only thing that worries me is this they might overpay for his next contract or let him walk

I'm not too worried about overpaying him. Granted Allvin is the GM but JR doesn't have a habit of overpaying bottom 6 players. Letting Lafferty walk is fine (assuming we make the playoffs).

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

This trade is looking pretty good right about now.

 

[mossey3535]

Philosophically I understand the "don't trade away draft capital" argument but in the context of where management thought the team was, the price we paid was great. I think at the time that there were good arguments about how realistic/delusional that sentiment was, but of course now it looks pretty good.

I guess the previous management thought the same and did the same but were basically crazy pants for thinking that. This management it hadn't come to fruition yet but there were definitely doubts. It didn't have to turn out to this kind of start, and consistency is still something this team has to grow into.

I really liked him for the leafs, even in the playoffs where he was kind of spinning his wheels a bit but was always bringing the effort. That's something that has been all over the place for us in the past few years.

 

[MS]

Philosophically I understand the "don't trade away draft capital" argument but in the context of where management thought the team was, the price we paid was great. I think at the time that there were good arguments about how realistic/delusional that sentiment was, but of course now it looks pretty good.

I guess the previous management thought the same and did the same but were basically crazy pants for thinking that. This management it hadn't come to fruition yet but there were definitely doubts. It didn't have to turn out to this kind of start, and consistency is still something this team has to grow into.

I really liked him for the leafs, even in the playoffs where he was kind of spinning his wheels a bit but was always bringing the effort. That's something that has been all over the place for us in the past few years.

I never, ever had a problem with the previous management in terms of the notion of 'age gap' or trading picks for players they liked.

The problems were 1) their player evaluations were f***ing terrible, and 2) they always overpaid and gave a 2nd when a 4th would have seemed to be appropriate value.

Trading a 4th round pick for a useful player is fantastic. Trading a 2nd or 3rd round pick for essentially a worthless piece of junk is not fantastic. And a whole bunch of the latter type of transaction has given this fanbase PTSD whenever a pick is traded.

 

[VanJack]

What's not to like about Lafferty? Can play center or wing; take faceoffs, kill penalties and now has three goals on the season.

And bonus is that he's big-- 6'2" and 205--and can skate like the wind. Leafs had to trade him or put him on waivers--where he'd have been claimed for sure. So Leafs loss is Canucks gain.

The baffling thing is that at the time, the Laffs elected to keep Fraser Minten and sign Noah Gregor. Now Minten is back with his junior team in Kamloops: and Gregor has done nothing.

 

[RobsonStreet]

I never, ever had a problem with the previous management in terms of the notion of 'age gap' or trading picks for players they liked.

The problems were 1) their player evaluations were f***ing terrible, and 2) they always overpaid and gave a 2nd when a 4th would have seemed to be appropriate value.

Trading a 4th round pick for a useful player is fantastic. Trading a 2nd or 3rd round pick for essentially a worthless piece of junk is not fantastic. And a whole bunch of the latter type of transaction has given this fanbase PTSD whenever a pick is traded.

Everyone agrees they want good young players. For some reason when confronted with the reality that this is incredibly hard to control, the compromise a lot of people pivot toward is “we want young players” and not “we want good players”.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I never, ever had a problem with the previous management in terms of the notion of 'age gap' or trading picks for players they liked.

The problems were 1) their player evaluations were f***ing terrible, and 2) they always overpaid and gave a 2nd when a 4th would have seemed to be appropriate value.

Trading a 4th round pick for a useful player is fantastic. Trading a 2nd or 3rd round pick for essentially a worthless piece of junk is not fantastic. And a whole bunch of the latter type of transaction has given this fanbase PTSD whenever a pick is traded.

For those wondering, a simple recap of the age gap project from previous management:

Out: Forsling, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 4th, Hansen, Burrows, 5th, 6th (and Jensen).

In: Clendening, Vey, Baertschi, Pedan, Pouliot, Bowey and 5th, Goldobin and a 4th, Dahlen (then Karlsson), Larsen, Etem.

We rarely hit on any with the Benning regime; I can only think of Dowd for Subban, who we promptly ditched.

 

[MS]

For those wondering, a simple recap of the age gap project from previous management:

Out: Forsling, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 4th, Hansen, Burrows, 5th, 6th (and Jensen).

In: Clendening, Vey, Baertschi, Pedan, Pouliot, Bowey and 5th, Goldobin and a 4th, Dahlen (then Karlsson), Larsen, Etem.

We rarely hit on any with the Benning regime; I can only think of Dowd for Subban, who we promptly ditched.

You appear to have forgotten about the existence of Markus Granlund, for which I envy you.

 

[Vector]

For those wondering, a simple recap of the age gap project from previous management:

Out: Forsling, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 4th, Hansen, Burrows, 5th, 6th (and Jensen).

In: Clendening, Vey, Baertschi, Pedan, Pouliot, Bowey and 5th, Goldobin and a 4th, Dahlen (then Karlsson), Larsen, Etem.

We rarely hit on any with the Benning regime; I can only think of Dowd for Subban, who we promptly ditched.

You appear to have forgotten about the existence of Markus Granlund, for which I envy you.

Carcone for Levio

Probably the only one that was actually a good trade.

 

[MS]

Carcone for Levio

Probably the only one that was actually a good trade.

Apparently that trade only happened because Dubas was trying to help Leivo stay in the NHL so he called up the team with the shittiest roster that he was most likely to stick on and offered him for a middling prospect.

 

[Vector]

Apparently that trade only happened because Dubas was trying to help Leivo stay in the NHL so he called up the team with the shittiest roster that he was most likely to stick on and offered him for a middling prospect.

Hey, a win is a win!

 

[MS]

Hey, a win is a win!

As with most things Jim Benning, even when you can kind of give him credit for putting his pants on in the morning, it's because someone else put his pants on for him.

But yes, at least he took the useful player when it was offered to him.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

You appear to have forgotten about the existence of Markus Granlund, for which I envy you.

I didn’t include it because it was basically bust for bust. Maybe Shinkaruk had better value available at the time (3rd/4th round pick?) but our bust just happened to stick around longer than Shinkaruk.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Thank god Miller trade worked out for us

 

[krutovsdonut]

For those wondering, a simple recap of the age gap project from previous management:

Out: Forsling, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 4th, Hansen, Burrows, 5th, 6th (and Jensen).

In: Clendening, Vey, Baertschi, Pedan, Pouliot, Bowey and 5th, Goldobin and a 4th, Dahlen (then Karlsson), Larsen, Etem.

We rarely hit on any with the Benning regime; I can only think of Dowd for Subban, who we promptly ditched.

you somehow missed granlund

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

you somehow missed granlund

Crap for crap

 

[Jyrki]

For those wondering, a simple recap of the age gap project from previous management:

Out: Forsling, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 4th, Hansen, Burrows, 5th, 6th (and Jensen).

In: Clendening, Vey, Baertschi, Pedan, Pouliot, Bowey and 5th, Goldobin and a 4th, Dahlen (then Karlsson), Larsen, Etem.

We rarely hit on any with the Benning regime; I can only think of Dowd for Subban, who we promptly ditched.

The Forsling for Clendening trade has to be one of the worst fails of Jimbo's tenure and a window into how he'd conduct himself moving forward. Traded a good prospect on the upswing who filled a sorely-needed gap in the pipeline for a guy who at that point did not project to be anything more than a journeyman, all because he felt he absolutely needed another defenseman to dress ASAP no matter the cost. Clendening becomes waiver fodder within a year while Forsling eventually develops into a Top 4 puck mover.

So even though both Jimbo and Allvin dealt with bridging age gaps, the difference wasn't just Jimbo's scouting fails but that he traded as if he was always a week away from being fired so he spared no assets to acquire players he had on his sights and gave little thought about how they fit in the big picture. Even if the Clendenings and Veys did give us a season or two of decent hockey, at the end of the day players with their hoped upside could've been acquired for a lot less and possibly at free agency for a non-crippling cap hit.

So it's great to have an administration that not only looks for low-risk acquisitions with upside, but that when they target players they allocate assets adequately to fulfill team needs,

 

[credulous]

forsling wasn't anything when benning traded him. allvin made basically the same trade in swapping myrenberg for studnicka. it's worked out better so far but it could easily end up just as bad