Agreed! Quoting this though because for the bold, I think he's already a fan favorite and October's not even over! Loving his speed, grit (sure introduced himself to Zadina) and skill and like you said, he's almost like our Marchand. OEL also looks revitalized (and it's helped his partner Tyler Myers too, so all of a sudden we turned two perceived "liabilities" into a legit shutdown pair). In hindsight that 9th overall pick also looks rather insignificant as the last position Vancouver needs help with is on the wing, and guys like MacTavish and Kent Jonsson (think that was his name, the C prospect) were already gone. If OEL can keep from declining too early it's probably a major win (and that'd be the case even if Garland just plays like a top-6 winger, and OEL is solid).
Confirmed Trade: [VAN/ARI] OEL (12% ret.), Garland for Beagle, Roussel, Eriksson, 9th OA, '22 2nd, '23 7th [Part II]
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Agreed! Quoting this though because for the bold, I think he's already a fan favorite and October's not even over! Loving his speed, grit (sure introduced himself to Zadina) and skill and like you said, he's almost like our Marchand. OEL also looks revitalized (and it's helped his partner Tyler Myers too, so all of a sudden we turned two perceived "liabilities" into a legit shutdown pair). In hindsight that 9th overall pick also looks rather insignificant as the last position Vancouver needs help with is on the wing, and guys like MacTavish and Kent Jonsson (think that was his name, the C prospect) were already gone. If OEL can keep from declining too early it's probably a major win (and that'd be the case even if Garland just plays like a top-6 winger, and OEL is solid).
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
Coyotes fans are the only ones who aren’t surprised. All of this was absolutely expected. Nobody wanted to listen to us at the time.
9th overall, a 2nd and some 1 year cap dumps was a fine return. OEL was not going to get back on track here. He never was. And nobody was going to A) take that contract he was in no way living up to and B) pay market value for how he used to play or how they hoped he would play in the future.
The bottom line is OEL had performed well below expectations for an extended period of time. Arizona had to get rid of him. It was toxic and needed to end. To only have to take back one year dumps was great. At the time I absolutely would have traded OEL for Roussel, Eriksson and Beagle. I still would. OEL has not played better than I expected. He’s doing what I thought he’d do. He wasn’t gonna do it here.
Only getting a 2nd for the retention was a little light. But I get it. You have to facilitate the trade somehow. This is the only element where I think AZ got a touch short-changed. But it’s fine.
Garland for 9th overall works. I’m fine with it. He’s 25 and the Coyotes won’t be a team poised to win a playoff round for at least 5 years. The timing doesn’t line-up. Guenther is a better fit. This works for me.
Arizona didn’t have a gun to Benning’ head at all. That’s revisionist nonsense. Benning was bidding against himself. Nobody wanted the OEL contract. He was the only one who believed strongly enough in the rebound to take the risk. Credit to him. Canucks management and Coyotes fans were the only two groups of people able to see the future on this one.
9th overall, a 2nd and some 1 year cap dumps was a fine return. OEL was not going to get back on track here. He never was. And nobody was going to A) take that contract he was in no way living up to and B) pay market value for how he used to play or how they hoped he would play in the future.
The bottom line is OEL had performed well below expectations for an extended period of time. Arizona had to get rid of him. It was toxic and needed to end. To only have to take back one year dumps was great. At the time I absolutely would have traded OEL for Roussel, Eriksson and Beagle. I still would. OEL has not played better than I expected. He’s doing what I thought he’d do. He wasn’t gonna do it here.
Only getting a 2nd for the retention was a little light. But I get it. You have to facilitate the trade somehow. This is the only element where I think AZ got a touch short-changed. But it’s fine.
Garland for 9th overall works. I’m fine with it. He’s 25 and the Coyotes won’t be a team poised to win a playoff round for at least 5 years. The timing doesn’t line-up. Guenther is a better fit. This works for me.
Arizona didn’t have a gun to Benning’ head at all. That’s revisionist nonsense. Benning was bidding against himself. Nobody wanted the OEL contract. He was the only one who believed strongly enough in the rebound to take the risk. Credit to him. Canucks management and Coyotes fans were the only two groups of people able to see the future on this one.
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I get that the Nurse comparison comments would tick off Oiler fans. Trust me, most Nuck fans wouldn't make that comparison as Nurse is a lot younger and the season just started.
However, why did you pick xGF% as the way to slam OEL? Did you look at is corsi, chances, high danger chances rankings among Canucks D? Or how about the eye test? In all those metrics, even Benning critics (me being a long time one) have said OEL hasn't put a foot wrong defensively. Guy is just super smooth and smart defensively. Offensively he has more to give but you can see the vision and crisp passing.
I'm not saying Nurse is worse. Nurse is a fantastic player and a cornerstone.
McDNicks17
Moderator
I didn’t say OEL was bad. Just that he hasn’t been close to Nurse in either usage or results this season.
xGF% is just simpler since it basically sums up all those things. OEL may rank high on the Canucks, but they’re still well below average results. It’s kind of like being the tallest midget haha since the Canucks might have the worst D core in the league in regards to analytics.
deckercky
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- Oct 27, 2010
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Impossible to split the trade up, but I value it as Garland for 9th + 2nd (I think you had a thread days before the trade where you were saying the 8th and 10th overall picks were not enough), and OEL with retention for the garbage. Despite his improved play, OEL was, and remains, a longterm risk given his play over the last few years, and Arizona managed to get out of most of the longterm impact.
MarkusNaslund19
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- Dec 28, 2005
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I think I saw it, to be honest.
But that's because I actually already knew who Garland and OEL were and didn't just rush to spreadsheets to give me my opinion.
This is a good post. This board constantly neglects context.
A couple of trades I can think of that were called fleecings in the past: Seguin from Boston and Kassian going to the Oilers (and when he left the Canucks).
Now, the Bruins should have gotten a lot more for Seguin, but they had to trade him because the situation had gone septic. There was no way he would have turned out to be the player/person in Boston, that he did in Dallas.
Similarly, Kassian needed to be dealt in order to have his awakening and realize that he was throwing his life down the tubes.
Just because a player thrives after a trade, doesn't inherently mean the team that lost him was wrong to do so.
Okay, I get what your saying. But as someone who watches every game for the Canucks, here is what I've seen so far this season:
OEL, Hughes have been fantastic so far and consistently our best players. Our defensive system sucks. That's on Green and the coaching staff. OEL excelling in a tire fire defensive team should be a compliment as its harder to look good in this mess. He has.
And I disagree that xGF% sums up all those other metrics. OEL doesn't get to play with a McDavid or Draisaitl. He plays the hardest matchups usually with our checking line that has zero offensive capability (Dickinson line). Naturally the GF% will suffer.
OEL’s regression analytics so far, taking into account both teammates and opposition have been fantastic, including his xGF/GA
He’s performed like a top pairing defenseman this year both analytically and by the eye test. Not elite or anything, but quite good. Using raw xGF is incredibly flawed because of everything included in that. You can say that being the best on a bad defense doesn’t mean you’re good, but at the same time, it’s hard to make a team good unless you’re a superstar. The forwards have struggled this year more than the defense, and haven’t been able to generate consistent possession, which hurts OEL and the rest of the defense in terms of raw analytics. Comparing his raw numbers to Nurse is also incredibly flawed since Nurse plays the majority of his minutes with McDavid and/or Draisaitl.
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rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
Yep. I also had a thread I started where it was OEL for Eriksson, Roussel, and Beagle. Lol.
I did also say I wouldn’t be happy with 9th overall for Garland a few days before the trade. But I was backing off of that a bit to the point where I was fine with it when it happened.
Apprehensive until the Guenther selection, and then quite thrilled, as I had Guenther rated 4th behind Power, Beniers and MacTavish. I was expecting Sillinger with the pick when we acquired it. Having watched Sillinger this season, I almost regret it wasn’t.
I’m definitely pissed the Senators chose Ty Boucher instead of trading us that pick for Dvorak, so we could’ve taken Sillinger with it. Walking away from that draft with Guenther and Sillinger would’ve been nice. And I think Ottawa would be better off with Dvorak versus Boucher.
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
Pat Verbeek was a tough as nails, punishing, short power forward. He wasn’t tall but he was a built like a tank and would rock guys. Vicious player.
Garland is tough in that he keeps going as others wipe the floor with him. He’s never imposed his will physically. He can’t. He’s puny. He’s smaller and weaker than the competition always. He’s got tremendous guts, and is probably my favorite player in the league. But he’s not tough at all in the traditional sense. Only in how much abuse he takes, which is a lot, and not how much he can dish out, which is none.
My hope for Garland is that he can be Gionta or Gallagher. My fear for Garland is that he ends up Svatos or Prucha. There a tiny guys that play like him and make a career out of it. There are also tiny guys like him that end their careers over it. Then in the middle are guys like Nagy that start out this way, and then have to change their games due to injuries and become much less effective as a result.
Anyway, I love Garland. I hope he keeps playing like this and can stay healthy doing it. He’s such a fun player. So easy to cheer for. And really one of the more interesting personalities, too. He’s not a dumb meathead and actually has thoughtful things to say. He’s a gem.
John Chayka was once called top 5 GM of the NHL because of his analytics. Zito has been on the job for about a minute and was given one hell of a team. Let's wait on the back slapping shall we.
John Chayka was never called a top 5 GM. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Zito was handed a team that was 10th place and had missed the playoffs for 8 of the 9 previous seasons. He was also handed a cap nightmare with tons of brutal contracts. He got rid of all of them except for Bob. He also acquired 4 of their top 6 forwards and 4 of their top 6 defensemen. Again, what the hell are you talking about?
Extremely lucky at 5 0n 5 getting 96+% Save percentage, while not producing hardly anything (Luke Schenn has more assists in half the games played).
Is part of the worst PK I've ever seen and has been on the ice for the 6th most PP goals against in the league amongst defensman.
To be perfectly honest, he's exceeding expectations and it's still a brutal addition to the Canucks. Hilarious reading all the back pats to Canucks management for this deal over the last few pages.
OEL's salary is the only thing people are hanging on right now
He could really use some other dmen that can
- take a reverse properly
- get the puck out properly
- make a return pass properly
Other dmen making poor plays have contributed to larsson's problem more than larsson's play
If he had more support he might feel a bit more comfortable trying something offensive
He could really use some other dmen that can
- take a reverse properly
- get the puck out properly
- make a return pass properly
Other dmen making poor plays have contributed to larsson's problem more than larsson's play
If he had more support he might feel a bit more comfortable trying something offensive
Strange that this trade is probably the least worrying thing about the Canucks right now.
OEL has been sorta meh but you can cut him a bit of slack coming into a new team which itself is trying to implement a new system.
Garland has probably been the best forward - at least my favourite to start the year.
The PK is just absolutely the worst thing. Who would have thought it was Jay Beagle holding the whole thing together
OEL has been sorta meh but you can cut him a bit of slack coming into a new team which itself is trying to implement a new system.
Garland has probably been the best forward - at least my favourite to start the year.
The PK is just absolutely the worst thing. Who would have thought it was Jay Beagle holding the whole thing together
Where are you coming up with this?
Might feel more comfortable trying something more offensive? He's 3rd in the league amongst blueliners in shots on goal. He's just not 24/25 and a scoring threat anymore.
I honestly feel like you have watched maybe 3 Canucks games this year, but it's probably less.
LOL.Strange that this trade is probably the least worrying thing about the Canucks right now.
OEL has been sorta meh but you can cut him a bit of slack coming into a new team which itself is trying to implement a new system.
Garland has probably been the best forward - at least my favourite to start the year.
The PK is just absolutely the worst thing. Who would have thought it was Jay Beagle holding the whole thing together
Jay Beagle is right up there with Lamikko and Dickinson as the worst Goals Against forwards in the league on the PK.
People not worrying about this trade have supported this regime and it's shortsighted moves for nearing a bloody decade now because they draft better than the guys they replaced (because they pick in the top 10 annually).
Canadian Canuck
Hughes4Calder
I think i have missed two games
I am not going to bother looking at stats but i bet you there isnt as strong a correlation you suggest between shots by a dmen and the leading dmen scorers
I am also going to guess the dmen that are the point getters is more tied to rushing and making plays which is part of having
- in sync forwards to finish and carry plays
- in sync forwards to back them up
- reliable partners that you trust so you can rush
- a more rotational offensive system that keeps movement so positional holes fill back up quicker
None of this sounds like how vancouver is playing right now. Oel is playing so conservative right now because he has too, but is STILL getting all those shots through from the safe haven of his defensive position at the blueline
This also shows how piss poor vancouver has been battling in between the hash marks, stick position near the crease and rebound goals
I will make another guess and say vancouver is near the bottom of the league in rebound goals
The don godfather
Registered User
Oel has been fine I guess. Garland is easily our best forward. Still an absolutely moronic trade though. Losing the 2nd this year will certainly sting.
I guess Benning was wrong in thinking we were an OEL/Garland away from winning a cup.
Shocker.
I guess Benning was wrong in thinking we were an OEL/Garland away from winning a cup.
Shocker.
DFF
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- Feb 28, 2002
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Guenther is far from a sure thing. It may end up as lose lose situation
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