Raptors Discussion: v88| Kawhi signs with the Clippers. But hey, at least we got a title out of him first.

[yvrtojfk]

Assuming the team stands pat, I’m really curious to see if the deep playoff run and winning it all changes anything for some of these players.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Assuming the team stands pat, I’m really curious to see if the deep playoff run and winning it all changes anything for some of these players.

No. Culture change is too much for a lot of Americans. Especially ones from California or the like.

 

[The Nemesis]

How to Annoy a Fan Base in 60 Easy Steps

From 1978 to 2011 the Clippers won 11 playoff games. The Warriors won 18.

From 1988 through 2008 (a nice round 20 years and a clean demarcation for both franchises since 2009 is the year of Blake Griffin and Steph Curry being drafted):

The Clippers high water mark for playoff success was winning 1 round before being knocked out in round 2 in 05-06. They made the playoffs only 4 times in that span. Their average conference finish was 11th, with 29.5 wins and a winning % of about .363

The Warriors in that same span averaged finishing 10th with 34 wins per season and a winning % of .425. They made it to the playoffs 6 times and advanced to the second round 3 times.

Individually in that run the only major awards the Clippers picked up was a MIP for Bobby Simmons and Exec of the Year for Elgin Baylor both at the tail end of the span.

The Warriors counter with Mitch Richmond and Chris Webber winning Rookie of the Year, Gilbert Arenas and Monta Ellis each picking up MIP, Don Nelson being named Coach of the Year, and a pair of dunk contest wins for Jason Richardson.

At the draft the Clippers were the picture of ineptitude. In 88 they drafted Danny Manning, who looked good before he got hurt. But from then on they flamed out far more often than not. They picked 1st rounders that amounted to <=5.0 career VORP 20 times in 25 selections (and of the 5 to beat that mark, one was Tyson Chandler who they almost immediately traded away in the Elton Brand deal, which I grant was a net positive for them. The others were Antonio McDyess, Lamar Odom, Quentin Richardson, and Eric Gordon.). They picked zero-or-negative VORP 1st rounders 14 times. And all this while picking inside the top 10 a total of 13 times. They had a run where their 1sts were: Danny Ferry, Bo Kimble, Loy Vaught, LaRon Ellis, Randy Woods, Elmore Spencer, Terry Dehere, Lamond Murray, Greg Minor, Antonio McDyess, Lorenzen Wright, Maurice Taylor, Michael Olowokandi, Brian and Brian Skinner. Tell me that group has more than 1 or 2 names with positive memories of their careers. Especially besides McDyess.

The Warriors had 23 1sts in that same period and they hit the 5-or worse VORP mark just 11 times. They had <=0 guys 8 times. And they managed to pick multiple really solid star or near-star players like Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway (immediately traded for Chris Webber), Latrell Spreewell, Vince Carter (immediately traded for Antawn Jamison), and Jason Richardson over that run. Plus Gilbert Arenas and Monta Ellis if you want to count 2nd rounders (the clippers have nobody of real note out of the 2nd round until DeAndre Jordan in 08.). And this was on 9 top-10 picks vs the Clippers' 13.

Sports Illustrated in 2000 named the Clippers the worst franchise in professional sports. And for good reason. They sucked at drafting, they sucked at winning, they sucked at getting to the playoffs, and they sucked at winning in the playoffs. So, yeah you can say the Warriors had only 7 more playoff wins in their pre-brekaout history than the Clippers did, but at their absolute nadir they were a worse team in every conceivable way.

plus at least the Warriors have their history from Philadelphia with Wilt including the most dominant single game performance in sports history. The Clippers have... being a tire fire in Buffalo in spite of Bob McAdoo and then being a tire fire briefly in San Diego.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Just from an optics standpoint they aren't going to sell off when they can still afford to put a competitive team together to start the season.

At the TDL is a different story however.

Agreed about the optics, but I think most fans would understand the long term benefits.

Besides, it would be even worse to unload them at the TDL if we're holding down the 4th seed.

 

[snipes]

I love Siakam but I cannot believe that we didn’t make that trade with him for Paul George and Russell Westbrook.

 

[stickty111]

I love Siakam but I cannot believe that we didn’t make that trade with him for Paul George and Russell Westbrook.

Westbrook is really overrated.
We only make that trade if it guaranteed Leonard staying. I'm also not giving up 4-5 unprotected 1st round picks.

 

[snipes]

Westbrook is really overrated.
We only make that trade if it guaranteed Leonard staying. I'm also not giving up 4-5 unprotected 1st round picks.

What’s the part regarding the picks?

I just got a Bleacher Report notification on my phone haven’t read deep into it yet. Would we also have to offer up that many draft picks plus Siakam?

 

[LaPlante94]

I love Siakam but I cannot believe that we didn’t make that trade with him for Paul George and Russell Westbrook.

Clippers just had better assets and more picks to give away. You got to remember that we can't just give away every pick over the next decade. Teams like ours rely on the draft to compete while teams from LA rely on FA.

 

[stickty111]

What’s the part regarding the picks?

I just got a Bleacher Report notification on my phone haven’t read deep into it yet. Would we also have to offer up that many draft picks plus Siakam?

If it meant getting both Westbrook and George, multiple 1st rounds would have been involved.

Bruce Arthur of the Toronto Star reported the Thunder "asked for Pascal Siakam, Fred VanVleet, and four unprotected first-round picks as a starting point for Paul George. The Raptors believed they were being used as leverage, and believed Kawhi finally, truly wanted LA. And then he left."

 

[LaPlante94]

What’s the part regarding the picks?

I just got a Bleacher Report notification on my phone haven’t read deep into it yet. Would we also have to offer up that many draft picks plus Siakam?

L.A.'s unprotected first-round picks in 2022, 2024 and 2026, along with 2021 (unprotected) and 2023 (protected) first-round selections via the Miami Heat and the option to swap picks with the Thunder in 2023 and 2025

 

[snipes]

If it meant getting both Westbrook and George, multiple 1st rounds would have been involved.

Bruce Arthur of the Toronto Star reported the Thunder "asked for Pascal Siakam, Fred VanVleet, and four unprotected first-round picks as a starting point for Paul George. The Raptors believed they were being used as leverage, and believed Kawhi finally, truly wanted LA. And then he left."

Ahh okay, yeah no that’s way too much to give up.

Especially how one player can swing a franchise in basketball unlike hockey.

FVV and Siakam are core players to build around and younger.

 

[snipes]

L.A.'s unprotected first-round picks in 2022, 2024 and 2026, along with 2021 (unprotected) and 2023 (protected) first-round selections via the Miami Heat and the option to swap picks with the Thunder in 2023 and 2025

Thanks man, this makes more sense now why we didn’t pull the trigger. Sounded way too good to be true.

**** boys I’m choked about losing Kawhi but he’ll still be a guy I always root for.

How many here will be cheering for the Clippers in the west? They’re easily my second team after the Raptors now.

 

[stickty111]

Ahh okay, yeah no that’s way too much to give up.

Especially how one player can swing a franchise in basketball unlike hockey.

FVV and Siakam are core players to build around and younger.

I would love George, but yeah no reason to sacrifice the future for it. Even if we got those two, Leonard wasn't guaranteed to stay. Masai did the right thing.

 

[LaPlante94]

Thanks man, this makes more sense now why we didn’t pull the trigger. Sounded way too good to be true.

**** boys I’m choked about losing Kawhi but he’ll still be a guy I always root for.

How many here will be cheering for the Clippers in the west? They’re easily my second team after the Raptors now.

I'll always root for Kawhi. My west team is Denver though.

 

[LaPlante94]

Is Beal still on the block? Would love to target him if he is.

 

[TrueTT]

Curious as to how people think the 19-20 Clippers stack up against the 18-19 Raptors?

Starters:
#1 option: Kawhi vs Kawhi - It's a wash.
#2 option: Siakam vs George - Siakam has loads of potential, but George is quite a bit better now.
#3 option: Lowry vs Beverly - I take Lowry.
#4 option: Green vs Shamet - Gimme Green.
#5 option: Gasol vs Harrell - I'd take Gasol.

Bench:
Van Vleet, Ibaka, Powell, Anunoby vs Williams, Zubac, Green, Chandler: Williams is the best scorer, but I'd still take the Raps bench.

Obviously the Clippers have the best 2nd star, but I still think the Raptors last year were a better built team. So it's interesting how the Clippers are now being seen as the unanimous favorites, while we were written off most of the year, even through the playoffs.

In the playoffs, you live and die by your 1-3 closing lineup options. Why do you think people were losing their minds with the super-teams in Miami and Golden State? Lol.

Kawhi, PG and Lou Williams are by far a better 1-3 to close than Kawhi, Siakam and Lowry. Paul George was an MVP candidate who averaged 28/8/4 last year and Lou Williams is coming off of back-to-back 20 PPG seasons as the 6MOY.

The reason the Clippers are considered title favorites is that they now have the most dominant trio of back-court and wing defenders since the 90s Bulls- 3 all-NBA first team defenders. Having said that, I'd still take the Lakers as it stands in a 7-game series.

People underrated the Raptors last year due to the media bias that ESPN and co. have regarding Canada. Anyone who knew Basketball knew how good the Raptors were at both ends of the ball and the fact that the bench was deep.

TTT.

 

[TrueTT]

Is Beal still on the block? Would love to target him if he is.

I thought Washington clarified that they're not interested in trading him?

TTT.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Raps will be back contending in 2 or 3 years.
Next year we are probably a 1st round or a 2nd round exit depending if we can stay above 6th place. But Bucks will play 76ers for east championship. and then either will get destroyed by either Clips or Lakers. Next year in NBA is set in stone.
Then Nets will take over and play Lakers/Clips the following year in a tight final.
The next season is where things get interesting. If Giannis and the Nigerian freak come to Toronto then we will contend again for a championship. Add them to Siakam VanFleet and Anoby and a centre and we got another shot.

 

[Eyedea]

The reason why the Raps were so good was because every piece fit the puzzle. I see shooters on the Clippers, not necessarily the same ball movement though which might restrict them from unlocking their full potential.

 

[Mr Hockey]

 

[stickty111]

The reason why the Raps were so good was because every piece fit the puzzle. I see shooters on the Clippers, not necessarily the same ball movement though which might restrict them from unlocking their full potential.

I also wonder if Doc Rivers is maybe not as good as Nurse. Doc has the resume on his side, but he hasn't exactly been great with the Clippers. I'm only going by what fans have said.

Related question, do you think Nurse is the kind of coach that can get the Raptors to overachieve this season?

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Eyedea]

I also wonder if Doc Rivers is maybe not as good as Nurse. Doc has the resume on his side, but he hasn't exactly been great with the Clippers. I'm only going by what fans have said.

Related question, do you think Nurse is the kind of coach that can get the Raptors to overachieve this season?

I think he's one of the most open minded coaches in the league and is capable of developing a system that is conducive to players trying to actualize their potential. I just hope we see that next step for these guys.

 

[inthe6ix]

Is Beal still on the block? Would love to target him if he is.

would likely cost too much to acquire him

back in january, it was speculated the wiz wanted like two 1sts, pascal and og

Toronto Raptors: Bradley Beal trade doesn’t make sense right now

That would cost the team budding star Pascal Siakam and wing OG Anunoby, plus some filler salary and two future first-round draft picks. The Raptors already owe this year’s pick to the Spurs, and they would have to persuade Washington to take a pick as far out as 2023.

 

[The Nemesis]

The Raptors are not in a position to go out and acquire some expensive trade piece. The price is going to be too high and the Raptors are no longer swimming in capital to get such a thing done.

Their best bet would be to see if some team's relationship with one of their stars goes sour and Masai can swoop in and offer one of the expiring big contracts + a 1st + someone not named Siakam or Anunoby (basically a deal that's a cousin to the Kawhi trade) to a team willing to take it to end their internal nightmare.

They're gonna do what Masai is doing, hold the fort, take fliers on high upside cheap signings, wait out the cap strapped setup they're in right now and see if they can swing the 2020 or 21 off-seasons in their favor with boatloads of money to spend and the freedom to rebuild the team as they see fit (with whatever value they can extract from other teams for the likes of Ibaka/Gasol/Lowry's expiring deals.)