GDT: UFC 278: Usman vs. Edwards 2/PFL 9

m9

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People used to always hate Jon Jones and called him phony and that was always bang-on to me because he acted one way but was obviously a disaster behind the scenes. Even on this forum we had talked about it for years and people wanted him to just embrace that he was a dick and play the heel role.

I guess I just don't see the "phony" with Usman? I get not liking him because you find him boring, even though he's had some great fights too. I even get not liking him because he's taken out Masvidal or Colby, who are obviously more popular fighters. You'll have a vocal minority who are convinced he's on steroids. You'll even have a segment of MMA fans who are basically cheering against him because he's black & how he promotes his culture.. even though that group will never admit they exist.

I find him an extremely confident guy who is very good at what he does. People being mad that high-end athletes can be confident or bordering on cocky is always amazing to me. These guys are competitive as hell and yeah they can be cocky, but that doesn't make them all bad guys. His moment with Woodley's Mom after he won the title was really cool.



Moments like that and what we saw from Edwards after he won are one of the great parts of the sport. You want big moments, guys living out their dream, getting emotional. It's great to see. None of Tyron Woodley, Kamaru Usman, or Leon Edwards are my favorite fighters. I don't find any particularly exciting in the cage or interesting personalities. But they've combined for some huge, fun moments.

Reading these last few pages and I've realized that I'm probably a bit insolated in terms of how much I consume from other fans. Obviously I'm active here, but generally the MMA fans here are pretty cool other than things getting a bit wild some times after Conor fights or whatever. I have a small MMA friend group who don't really love/hate fighters, they just watch the fights. If they don't like Usman, it's because they've watched 4 of his fights and 3-1/2 have been boring. When I go to live UFCs, the fans are 90% great and even that annoying 10% is mostly just drunk and as someone whose been in that 10% a few times I get that part too. It sounds like the Twitter MMA stuff is a bit of a mess, so I'm glad I've stayed away from that.
 

pistolpete11

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I agree it is childish. I'm a huge GSP fan but have always rooted for Usman and don't care if he becomes the greatest WW of alltime. At the same time, I think people hating a fighter because they think he's phony when in reality they don't know him at all is pretty childish too. Fwiw, I think almost all fighters or athletes in general are phony in public at least to a certain extent. For the most part I only care what they do in the cage.
Nah, man. I mean, sure, you could say we are all phony to a certain degree, but it's very blatant and on full display with Usman. He's a walking contradiction. One minute he's a respectful martial artist who's just honing his craft a la GSP. The next minute he's talking shit like a Conor wannabe. He's the humble family man who's just trying to do the best for his daughter until he's on stage at the press conference with his shirt open and flashing his expensive clothes and jewelry.
 

Tobias Kahun

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I understand Usman rubbing people the wrong way, but the response has been extreme and honestly insane. OK, so he may seem a bit plastic and "fake" , but it's not like the guy is manufacturing conflict for attention. Doesn't talk shit just for the sake of it. One of the most dominant champions in history and by most accounts, just a decent, hardworking family man. He lets his actions do the talking.

Those reveling in his defeat...not a good look.

Fair enough if you're not a big fan and wanted him to lose, but the vitriol and disrespect? GTFO
I think I’ll continue being happy he lost.

Most definitely won’t be GTFO.
 

pistolpete11

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People used to always hate Jon Jones and called him phony and that was always bang-on to me because he acted one way but was obviously a disaster behind the scenes. Even on this forum we had talked about it for years and people wanted him to just embrace that he was a dick and play the heel role.

I guess I just don't see the "phony" with Usman? I get not liking him because you find him boring, even though he's had some great fights too. I even get not liking him because he's taken out Masvidal or Colby, who are obviously more popular fighters. You'll have a vocal minority who are convinced he's on steroids. You'll even have a segment of MMA fans who are basically cheering against him because he's black & how he promotes his culture.. even though that group will never admit they exist.

I find him an extremely confident guy who is very good at what he does. People being mad that high-end athletes can be confident or bordering on cocky is always amazing to me. These guys are competitive as hell and yeah they can be cocky, but that doesn't make them all bad guys. His moment with Woodley's Mom after he won the title was really cool.



Moments like that and what we saw from Edwards after he won are one of the great parts of the sport. You want big moments, guys living out their dream, getting emotional. It's great to see. None of Tyron Woodley, Kamaru Usman, or Leon Edwards are my favorite fighters. I don't find any particularly exciting in the cage or interesting personalities. But they've combined for some huge, fun moments.

Reading these last few pages and I've realized that I'm probably a bit insolated in terms of how much I consume from other fans. Obviously I'm active here, but generally the MMA fans here are pretty cool other than things getting a bit wild some times after Conor fights or whatever. I have a small MMA friend group who don't really love/hate fighters, they just watch the fights. If they don't like Usman, it's because they've watched 4 of his fights and 3-1/2 have been boring. When I go to live UFCs, the fans are 90% great and even that annoying 10% is mostly just drunk and as someone whose been in that 10% a few times I get that part too. It sounds like the Twitter MMA stuff is a bit of a mess, so I'm glad I've stayed away from that.

I don't think anybody is saying he's a bad person because of it. They are just explaining why they don't like him. That was a very nice moment with Woodley's mom. The problem is that he then turns into this guy:



Call it what you will. Phony, cringe, forced. It doesn't come off well.

Cockiness does turn some people off, but it's more than that with Usman because some of the biggest fan favorites in the sport have been cocky, most notably Conor. Same with the race card. Sure, there's people that are just racist, but there are plenty of fan favorites that are black, too.
 
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pistolpete11

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I would favor Usman slightly, but would not be surprised if he loses again. The fight showed that Edwards could end it in one shot, and there are 5 rounds in there. Not to mention that Leon is still 31 years old, while Kamaru is pushing toward 36, so you gotta believe that father time is hanging around the corner.

As for his post-fight interview, that has to be one of the best interviews I've seen. It was pure raw emotions, can't help but root for the guy.
I actually picked Edwards to win this fight because of that, but after seeing how it played out for like 24min, I think I'd switch my pick to Usman in the rematch. Incredible moment from Edwards, but that was only his 3rd KO in the UFC. I think the odds of him doing something like that again in his next fight are pretty low when he's mainly been a decision machine.

There will be the questions about how Usman rebounds given his age, a brutal KO, and having his invincibility shattered, but I think he showed he's just a much better fighter despite losing.
 
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I don't think anybody is saying he's a bad person because of it. They are just explaining why they don't like him. That was a very nice moment with Woodley's mom. The problem is that he then turns into this guy:



Call it what you will. Phony, cringe, forced. It doesn't come off well.

Cockiness does turn some people off, but it's more than that with Usman because some of the biggest fan favorites in the sport have been cocky, most notably Conor. Same with the race card. Sure, there's people that are just racist, but there are plenty of fan favorites that are black, too.


This is what people get worked up about? There's like nothing here. The accent thing at the end is weird, not sure what the context is there.

I don't know, maybe I just don't see it. What is phony about it? Sometimes he's cocky, sometimes he's not. Are people supposed to be in the same mood all the time? Phony to me is like Jon Jones acting like a churchboy.

I guess this stuff can be considered cringe, but it's like a 6/10 compared to some of the stuff fighters do.
 

pistolpete11

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This is what people get worked up about? There's like nothing here. The accent thing at the end is weird, not sure what the context is there.

I don't know, maybe I just don't see it. What is phony about it? Sometimes he's cocky, sometimes he's not. Are people supposed to be in the same mood all the time? Phony to me is like Jon Jones acting like a churchboy.

I guess this stuff can be considered cringe, but it's like a 6/10 compared to some of the stuff fighters do.
I don't know who's getting worked up. People explained why they don't like Usman. Numerous people mentioned this dual personality thing as a reason, but for whatever reason some people don't seem willing to accept that.

This was just an example that was readily available on YouTube. It's still unlikable even if it's not as phony as Jones or as cringey as Colby. If you listen to him talk, he's constantly flipping back and fourth between his GSP impression and his Conor impression. I'll grant you that it's not as drastic as the God fearing Christian vs. the drunk driving cokehead who hits pregnant people in their car and then flees the scene, but it's still enough that 1 of them has got to be an act.
 

DaaaaB's

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Nah, man. I mean, sure, you could say we are all phony to a certain degree, but it's very blatant and on full display with Usman. He's a walking contradiction. One minute he's a respectful martial artist who's just honing his craft a la GSP. The next minute he's talking shit like a Conor wannabe. He's the humble family man who's just trying to do the best for his daughter until he's on stage at the press conference with his shirt open and flashing his expensive clothes and jewelry.
Idk that any of that makes him a phony though. Like M9 said, people aren't always in the same mood. I also think what you said applies to a lot maybe even most fighters. I just think it's silly to hate one of the best fighters ever because he's sometimes cocky and sometimes respectful. Also, don't agree with your comment that one side of him must be an act. It could be but it could easily not be too. The human brain is a very complex thing.
 
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I don't know who's getting worked up. People explained why they don't like Usman. Numerous people mentioned this dual personality thing as a reason, but for whatever reason some people don't seem willing to accept that.

This was just an example that was readily available on YouTube. It's still unlikable even if it's not as phony as Jones or as cringey as Colby. If you listen to him talk, he's constantly flipping back and fourth between his GSP impression and his Conor impression. I'll grant you that it's not as drastic as the God fearing Christian vs. the drunk driving cokehead who hits pregnant people in their car and then flees the scene, but it's still enough that 1 of them has got to be an act.

Describing someone who acts different in different situations at different times as a "dual personality" is just so weird to me. That's just a human having regular emotions like I'm sure most of us do.

Fighters also lead a life unlike most people where there are obvious reasons why they are going to act different. Are they in camp? Cutting weight? Doing fight promo? Just lost a big fight or won a big fight? On their 10th interview of the day?

Jorge Masvidal can sometimes be super thoughtful and respectful. Sometimes he's talking about how he enjoys sucker-punching people and running away. I don't really see anyone talk about his "dual personalty" or being fake. Depending which day you caught Alistair Overeem on, he can be super funny or he can be a cocky douche.
 

m9

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As for the actual trilogy, Usman opening at -350. Way too high for me for a guy who lost the first round and will be coming off that finish.

This rematch is so much different than say, Nunes/Pena 2. Nunes looked like garbage in the first fight and Pena was durable enough to stick around, so you were basically just betting on Nunes having an off-night. Few more variables this time. I think Usman should be favored, but these odds seem high.
 

pistolpete11

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Idk that any of that makes him a phony though. Like M9 said, people aren't always in the same mood. I also think what you said applies to a lot maybe even most fighters. I just think it's silly to hate one of the best fighters ever because he's sometimes cocky and sometimes respectful. Also, don't agree with your comment that one side of him must be an act. It could be but it could easily not be too. The human brain is a very complex thing.
In the court of public opinion, perception is reality and numerous people in this thread perceive him as fake. The MMA section of a hockey forum is a very, very, very small corner of the MMA fanbase so if there are this many people that have that opinion on here, you can be sure there's a lot more in the wider fanbase that hold the same opinion.

If you have a different reason that one of the best fighters ever is not more well liked, then have at it. But if you think it is because of other fighters' fans, his race, or his cockiness, we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

pistolpete11

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Describing someone who acts different in different situations at different times as a "dual personality" is just so weird to me. That's just a human having regular emotions like I'm sure most of us do.

Fighters also lead a life unlike most people where there are obvious reasons why they are going to act different. Are they in camp? Cutting weight? Doing fight promo? Just lost a big fight or won a big fight? On their 10th interview of the day?

Jorge Masvidal can sometimes be super thoughtful and respectful. Sometimes he's talking about how he enjoys sucker-punching people and running away. I don't really see anyone talk about his "dual personalty" or being fake. Depending which day you caught Alistair Overeem on, he can be super funny or he can be a cocky douche.
I don't know what to tell you, man. It comes across as fake and I'm not the only one who thinks so. If you don't see it, you don't see it.
 
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Taytro

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People used to always hate Jon Jones and called him phony and that was always bang-on to me because he acted one way but was obviously a disaster behind the scenes. Even on this forum we had talked about it for years and people wanted him to just embrace that he was a dick and play the heel role.

I guess I just don't see the "phony" with Usman? I get not liking him because you find him boring, even though he's had some great fights too. I even get not liking him because he's taken out Masvidal or Colby, who are obviously more popular fighters. You'll have a vocal minority who are convinced he's on steroids. You'll even have a segment of MMA fans who are basically cheering against him because he's black & how he promotes his culture.. even though that group will never admit they exist.

I find him an extremely confident guy who is very good at what he does. People being mad that high-end athletes can be confident or bordering on cocky is always amazing to me. These guys are competitive as hell and yeah they can be cocky, but that doesn't make them all bad guys. His moment with Woodley's Mom after he won the title was really cool.



Moments like that and what we saw from Edwards after he won are one of the great parts of the sport. You want big moments, guys living out their dream, getting emotional. It's great to see. None of Tyron Woodley, Kamaru Usman, or Leon Edwards are my favorite fighters. I don't find any particularly exciting in the cage or interesting personalities. But they've combined for some huge, fun moments.

Reading these last few pages and I've realized that I'm probably a bit insolated in terms of how much I consume from other fans. Obviously I'm active here, but generally the MMA fans here are pretty cool other than things getting a bit wild some times after Conor fights or whatever. I have a small MMA friend group who don't really love/hate fighters, they just watch the fights. If they don't like Usman, it's because they've watched 4 of his fights and 3-1/2 have been boring. When I go to live UFCs, the fans are 90% great and even that annoying 10% is mostly just drunk and as someone whose been in that 10% a few times I get that part too. It sounds like the Twitter MMA stuff is a bit of a mess, so I'm glad I've stayed away from that.

I can only explain the way I see it, can't speak for anyone else. But to me it's 100% personality change based. We've seen it quite a few times where a guy gets in the limelight and then either changes his personality to attract more eyeballs, or is just more confident in being who he truly is, and presents that way more to the audience. There's three options, the viewer likes him more, likes him less, or doesn't change their opinion. Colby went from irrelevant to hated, to 50/50 fanbases. Luke Rockhold went from respected to very disrespected when he became "King Luke" after he got the title where he was just looking down on/past everyone and everything. Francis I think is a pretty close comparison to Kamaru as he started being more confident and disrespectful on stage/interviews (still a sweetheart elsewhere), and a bit more entitled by his position. I personally prefer pre-title Francis. There's no arguing that Kamaru has changed and gotten more confident over the last few years, and with those changes come changes to people's opinions. Lots in this thread seem to not like his newish confidence and flair, and I am also in that boat. And changing from the guy he previously present as, to this almost over confident champion is probably the part people see as phony.

I typically personally prefer the honest, humble, respectful guys, so Usman taking his shirt off in pressers, looking past opponents, disrespecting people, being more confident on the mic etc. is just kind of cringey to me but everyone has their preferences and those preferences might change from fighter to fighter. Some guys are better at promos, better at talking on the mic, better at being interesting, so they can still draw people in. I don't think Usman is particularly good at any of those things, I don't think his new persona is particularly likeable and I think that contributes to the "phony" side of things too.

Aside from that, Usman getting drunk and posting instagram stories or tweets telling fans or critics he hopes they kill themselves kind of changed my opinion of him too. But that's just me.

Tldr: People change, sometimes fans like, sometimes fans don't.
 
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I can only explain the way I see it, can't speak for anyone else. But to me it's 100% personality change based. We've seen it quite a few times where a guy gets in the limelight and then either changes his personality to attract more eyeballs, or is just more confident in being who he truly is, and presents that way more to the audience. There's three options, the viewer likes him more, likes him less, or doesn't change their opinion. Colby went from irrelevant to hated, to 50/50 fanbases. Luke Rockhold went from respected to very disrespected when he became "King Luke" after he got the title where he was just looking down on/past everyone and everything. Francis I think is a pretty close comparison to Kamaru as he started being more confident and disrespectful on stage/interviews (still a sweetheart elsewhere), and a bit more entitled by his position. I personally prefer pre-title Francis. There's no arguing that Kamaru has changed and gotten more confident over the last few years, and with those changes come changes to people's opinions. Lots in this thread seem to not like his newish confidence and flair, and I am also in that boat. And changing from the guy he previously present as, to this almost over confident champion is probably the part people see as phony.

I typically personally prefer the honest, humble, respectful guys, so Usman taking his shirt off in pressers, looking past opponents, disrespecting people, being more confident on the mic etc. is just kind of cringey to me but everyone has their preferences and those preferences might change from fighter to fighter. Some guys are better at promos, better at talking on the mic, better at being interesting, so they can still draw people in. I don't think Usman is particularly good at any of those things, I don't think his new persona is particularly likeable and I think that contributes to the "phony" side of things too.

Aside from that, Usman getting drunk and posting instagram stories or tweets telling fans or critics he hopes they kill themselves kind of changed my opinion of him too. But that's just me.

Tldr: People change, sometimes fans like, sometimes fans don't.

That makes sense to me, at least thinking of it more that someone is changing/evolving vs someone being fake/phony. Usman has also been fighting tied to massive personalities in the last few years with Colby/Masvidal/etc so I think some things probably got stirred up a bit there. Maybe this loss will humble him a bit, I guess we'll see.

Rashad Evans is another TUF winner that lots of fans hated coming up - faced some of the same criticisms about him being boring and corny. Really, he was just beating people's favorite fighters, which is usually all it is,. Anyways, he's good friends with Usman and was on Morning Kombat today. Gave some good insight to where Usman is. I think/hope we'll see a guy really bounce back here and re-focus on the sport. It did sound like maybe he'll be taking a bit longer of a break, so maybe the UFC sneaks in a Masvidal/Edwards fight first.
 

DaaaaB's

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In the court of public opinion, perception is reality and numerous people in this thread perceive him as fake. The MMA section of a hockey forum is a very, very, very small corner of the MMA fanbase so if there are this many people that have that opinion on here, you can be sure there's a lot more in the wider fanbase that hold the same opinion.

If you have a different reason that one of the best fighters ever is not more well liked, then have at it. But if you think it is because of other fighters' fans, his race, or his cockiness, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Fair enough. Other than the actual fights I haven't been following the sport real close the past few years so I probably just haven't noticed as much. I definitely wasn't aware of him telling people to kill themselves on Twitter stuff. That seems extraordinarily douchey unless I'm missing some major context.
 
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Avs_19

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As for the actual trilogy, Usman opening at -350. Way too high for me for a guy who lost the first round and will be coming off that finish.

This rematch is so much different than say, Nunes/Pena 2. Nunes looked like garbage in the first fight and Pena was durable enough to stick around, so you were basically just betting on Nunes having an off-night. Few more variables this time. I think Usman should be favored, but these odds seem high.

I think it's slightly high but not significantly. Leon won the first round but that fight was so one-sided from there on out. I see Usman being even more conservative and grappling heavy in the trilogy. We can't ignore certain variables like the altitude playing a role in Leon getting fatigued quicker and Herb is just about the worst ref for a fight like that because he's not going break the action, even when Usman is holding Leon and doing absolutely nothing of consequence for two straight mins, so maybe that shifts the odds somewhat but I think Usman should be at least -300 or so. Usman went back to more of his boring style but I thought he still looked really good. The fight potentially being in the UK could be another factor in Leon's favour but I don't know how much that'd effect someone like Usman.
 
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pistolpete11

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As for the actual trilogy, Usman opening at -350. Way too high for me for a guy who lost the first round and will be coming off that finish.

This rematch is so much different than say, Nunes/Pena 2. Nunes looked like garbage in the first fight and Pena was durable enough to stick around, so you were basically just betting on Nunes having an off-night. Few more variables this time. I think Usman should be favored, but these odds seem high.
It's also different than Nunes-Pena because we saw Usman dominate for 3+ rounds. If memory serves, Nunes won the first round, but it wasn't a run away and then she got finished in the second.

I think Usman will deploy the same gameplan more or less because it was so effective. He just had to go 1 more minute without getting kicked in the head and he had a relatively easy 49-46 decision. Leon had no answer for the grappling, so it comes down to if Edwards can find another finish. His history says it's not likely. Of course each fight is a new fight, but I think that's the basic calculus going into it.

I agree if @Avs_19. -300 or better seems about right.


I think it's slightly high but not significantly. Leon won the first round but that fight was so one-sided from there on out. I see Usman being even more conservative and grappling heavy in the trilogy. We can't ignore certain variables like the altitude playing a role in Leon getting fatigued quicker and Herb is just about the worst ref for a fight like that because he's not going break the action, even when Usman is holding Leon and doing absolutely nothing of consequence for two straight mins, so maybe that shifts the odds somewhat but I think Usman should be at least -300 or so. Usman went back to more of his boring style but I thought he still looked really good. The fight potentially being in the UK could be another factor in Leon's favour but I don't know how much that'd effect someone like Usman.
That sometimes works against fighters, too. Just ask Derrick Lewis.
 
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Chaels Arms

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It's completely against his nature but I would love for Edwards to just come out firing on all cylinders and calling for Masvidal next. That way he makes a boatload of money while still wearing the belt and it's a much easier fight than the trilogy with Usman or having to face Khamzat (if he beats Nate).
 

I am not exposed

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It's completely against his nature but I would love for Edwards to just come out firing on all cylinders and calling for Masvidal next. That way he makes a boatload of money while still wearing the belt and it's a much easier fight than the trilogy with Usman or having to face Khamzat (if he beats Nate).

He did say he has unfinished business with Masvidal and would like to fight him. But also said he has to actually win a fight before he gets a shot at Leon holding the title. Masvidal is on a 3 fight losing streak. He shouldn't really be anywhere near a title fight. But he's a big name, and if he wins his next fight, I could see it happening. That's a big if though.
 
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pistolpete11

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Masvidal getting a title shot would be one of the more egregious examples of unearned title shots. I wouldn't put it past them, but I think Chimaev (probably) coming off a win against Nate would be a big enough fight for them to not resort to giving Masvidal a shot. I don't think Edwards has enough clout to force it either.
 

m9

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Usman has now came out and said he wants the trilogy in London at the beginning of 2023. So, you can probably book that one.

An Usman win sets up things pretty easily: Usman v Chimaev or whoever the next challenger is & then Edwards v Masvidal. I do think that if Edwards wins that trilogy, Masvidal is going to have to pick up a win between now and that title shot.

Wonder if things fell in a certain direction (Chimaev & Adesanya winning) if Chimaev just bumps the entire 185lb line and fights Adesanya for the belt next year. It kind of solves the logjam at 170lbs & the dearth at 185lbs in one swoop.
 

BGDDYKWL

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I may be in the minority but I absolutely despise outcomes like the one we saw Saturday night. And don't get me wrong, everyone at the bar I was watching had the same reaction Rogan always does, and it's a reminder that "anything can happen in MMA", but I don't like seeing a guy completely dominate most of a fight and then get caught right at the end. It's not the "correct" outcome if you will.

And I don't wanna take anything away from Edwards by saying it was lucky or a fluke, but as the odds for the trilogy already indicate, Usman is the better fighter, and if they fought ten times my personal opinion is Usman would win nine.

Masvidal has no business anywhere near a title discussion. Really hope that doesn't even get entertained. And Colby still sounds pretty beat up so he's likely out of the conversation in the near future. If Usman and Chimaev win as expected that fight will be very interesting.

Personally I don't mind Usman. I think a lot of the "cringe" if you will gets brought out by guys with big mouths. When you're promoting and have to listen to everything that comes out of Colby and Jorge's mouths it's tough not to respond in kind.
 
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I am not exposed

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I may be in the minority but I absolutely despise outcomes like the one we saw Saturday night. And don't get me wrong, everyone at the bar I was watching had the same reaction Rogan always does, and it's a reminder that "anything can happen in MMA", but I don't like seeing a guy completely dominate most of a fight and then get caught right at the end. It's not the "correct" outcome if you will.

And I don't wanna take anything away from Edwards by saying it was lucky or a fluke, but as the odds for the trilogy already indicate, Usman is the better fighter, and if they fought ten times my personal opinion is Usman would win nine.

Masvidal has no business anywhere near a title discussion. Really hope that doesn't even get entertained. And Colby still sounds pretty beat up so he's likely out of the conversation in the near future. If Usman and Chimaev win as expected that fight will be very interesting.

Personally I don't mind Usman. I think a lot of the "cringe" if you will gets brought out by guys with big mouths. When you're promoting and have to listen to everything that comes out of Colby and Jorge's mouths it's tough not to respond in kind.

I can see where you're coming from, but from an entertainment aspect, it's far better for the sport when these things happen. Upsets and last minute finishes have been some of the most memorable moments of this sport.
 
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Chaels Arms

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6,888
New York City
I watched an interview Usman did with TMZ Sports after the fight. He appears so relaxed and almost relieved that I wonder if the pressure of being perfect had started to weigh on him personally. Now he gets to sit back, regroup and get back to training without all the pressure of the belt, the perfect UFC record etc. He gets to be a bit more "normal" now.
 

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