GDT: UFC 270: Ngannou vs. Gane

[chicagoskycam]

Sure a union would probably be better for them. But like I said, fighters have shown basically zero interest in a union for 15 years. People need to understand that certain groups of people are not going to be interested in a union and it's pretty clear by now that MMA fighters (or fighters in general) are one of those groups. Until fighters show serious interest in starting one, bringing it up serves no purpose other than virtue signaling so people can say they care about fighters.

The leverage thing is tough. This faux-boxing stuff has created leverage for some guys recently, but not enough. Mike Perry got more than $250k for his first Triad fight. That seems good enough. They need more of that kind of stuff. If these organizations are run by the right people, maybe they can stick around.

The really under-reported part in all of this is just how Bellator has taken a big dive in terms of relevance the last couple of years. That was supposed to be the #2 who could threaten the UFC and that gap has never been wider.

Yeah, I think Bellator was a bit slower to return after Covid and it might have hurt them. I read an article that Bellator was losing money every year even prior to the pandemic. They may have better success being a feeder system to the UFC and asking for payouts when their fighters get a UFC contract. The losses were reported before the Showtime deal so they may be in better shape now.

 

[m9]

Yeah, I think Bellator was a bit slower to return after Covid and it might have hurt them. I read an article that Bellator was losing money every year even prior to the pandemic. They may have better success being a feeder system to the UFC and asking for payouts when their fighters get a UFC contract. The losses were reported before the Showtime deal so they may be in better shape now.

There was always some talk that they were cooking the books a bit in previous years and Bellator was actually making money but they tagged it as a loss for tax purposes up until the last couple of years. But still..

Dana White can be an idiot at times but him and the UFC absolutely nailed how they handled the pandemic and actually made their business more efficient with the Apex shows. I said from the beginning that MMA would be able to handle the pandemic better than other sports because of the structure and the UFC just went straight ahead and did just that. Others like Bellator got left behind.

Bellator took some time off in 2020 when things were going crazy.. and that's understandable. But they also went 4 months between events at the end of 2020 into 2021. They didn't even have a single fight announced for 2021 until late January. How is that good business? They got pulled from DAZN in Canada and now are free on YouTube. Are they making money from that? AJ McKee was setup to be a star after his big win last year. He last fought in July and we've barely heard from him due to a contract issue. I really, really question what's going on over there.

To tie it back - it's extremely important for the fighters for Bellator to be successful right now so that they can be proper free agents. It's especially true for that juicy middle tier of Bellator/Fight Night main eventers or co-main guys who don't get the big PPV bumps but should still be paid appropriately for what they do.

 

[chicagoskycam]

There was always some talk that they were cooking the books a bit in previous years and Bellator was actually making money but they tagged it as a loss for tax purposes up until the last couple of years. But still..

Dana White can be an idiot at times but him and the UFC absolutely nailed how they handled the pandemic and actually made their business more efficient with the Apex shows. I said from the beginning that MMA would be able to handle the pandemic better than other sports because of the structure and the UFC just went straight ahead and did just that. Others like Bellator got left behind.

Bellator took some time off in 2020 when things were going crazy.. and that's understandable. But they also went 4 months between events at the end of 2020 into 2021. They didn't even have a single fight announced for 2021 until late January. How is that good business? They got pulled from DAZN in Canada and now are free on YouTube. Are they making money from that? AJ McKee was setup to be a star after his big win last year. He last fought in July and we've barely heard from him due to a contract issue. I really, really question what's going on over there.

To tie it back - it's extremely important for the fighters for Bellator to be successful right now so that they can be proper free agents. It's especially true for that juicy middle tier of Bellator/Fight Night main eventers or co-main guys who don't get the big PPV bumps but should still be paid appropriately for what they do.

Yeah, I read the parent company, Viacom, was charging big fees to air fights so they would not show as making a profit. I may have that reversed but they were posting losses to avoid taxes.

 

[pistolpete11]

Sure a union would probably be better for them. But like I said, fighters have shown basically zero interest in a union for 15 years. People need to understand that certain groups of people are not going to be interested in a union and it's pretty clear by now that MMA fighters (or fighters in general) are one of those groups. Until fighters show serious interest in starting one, bringing it up serves no purpose other than virtue signaling so people can say they care about fighters.

The leverage thing is tough. This faux-boxing stuff has created leverage for some guys recently, but not enough. Mike Perry got more than $250k for his first Triad fight. That seems good enough. They need more of that kind of stuff. If these organizations are run by the right people, maybe they can stick around.

The really under-reported part in all of this is just how Bellator has taken a big dive in terms of relevance the last couple of years. That was supposed to be the #2 who could threaten the UFC and that gap has never been wider.

I agree a union isn't going to happen. Where we differ is that I have about as much hope as a union starting as I do a serious competitor emerging. This boxing stuff is great for a handful of guys, but it's a fad and will go away eventually. The UFC might not be quite as dominant as the NFL/NHL/MLB/NBA, but it's pretty damn close. I mean, there are still people that think the sport is UFC and not MMA. There's a KHL that pops up every once in a while, but it's not sustainable, just like these other promotions. If Scott Coker can't build a competitor with the backing of ViacomCBS, I don't think it can be done.

The only thing that might change that is if this lawsuit forces the UFC into loosening up their contracts. Even then, though, it's an uphill battle. Some more guys get to be free agents, but these other promotions still need to be able to pay these guys enough to get them to switch over. I don't know that they can, at least not with enough of them to really put a dent into the UFC.

 

[m9]

I agree a union isn't going to happen. Where we differ is that I have about as much hope as a union starting as I do a serious competitor emerging. This boxing stuff is great for a handful of guys, but it's a fad and will go away eventually. The UFC might not be quite as dominant as the NFL/NHL/MLB/NBA, but it's pretty damn close. I mean, there are still people that think the sport is UFC and not MMA. There's a KHL that pops up every once in a while, but it's not sustainable, just like these other promotions. If Scott Coker can't build a competitor with the backing of ViacomCBS, I don't think it can be done.

The only thing that might change that is if this lawsuit forces the UFC into loosening up their contracts. Even then, though, it's an uphill battle. Some more guys get to be free agents, but these other promotions still need to be able to pay these guys enough to get them to switch over. I don't know that they can, at least not with enough of them to really put a dent into the UFC.

It's sure starting to seem like the serious competitors option is dying fast. It's just crazy to me because if you look at that 2007-2010 range there was tons of real competition - maybe not in overall product, but at least in options for fighters to get paid. I think it's totally possible that this ESPN deal was the kill shot for everyone else and it will be even more obvious in the next 3-5 years.

Stuff like the loosening of the contracts will definitely help a bit. To use other sports terms, the UFC has created a system where basically they have most of their talent locked in as RFAs forever and never really allow to be UFAs until they're aged out.

I was reading today about how there is a bunch of Saudi $ being thrown at golfers to shake up the PGA system. I wonder if something like that would ever happen in MMA. That's the exact type of situation where you see some Abu Dhabi money thrown at Conor & a few other guys to start something up. Kind of grasping at straws, though.

 

[pistolpete11]

It's sure starting to seem like the serious competitors option is dying fast. It's just crazy to me because if you look at that 2007-2010 range there was tons of real competition - maybe not in overall product, but at least in options for fighters to get paid. I think it's totally possible that this ESPN deal was the kill shot for everyone else and it will be even more obvious in the next 3-5 years.

Stuff like the loosening of the contracts will definitely help a bit. To use other sports terms, the UFC has created a system where basically they have most of their talent locked in as RFAs forever and never really allow to be UFAs until they're aged out.

I was reading today about how there is a bunch of Saudi $ being thrown at golfers to shake up the PGA system. I wonder if something like that would ever happen in MMA. That's the exact type of situation where you see some Abu Dhabi money thrown at Conor & a few other guys to start something up. Kind of grasping at straws, though.

I've been wondering if some Middle East or Russian money would get behind Eagle FC.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I agree a union isn't going to happen. Where we differ is that I have about as much hope as a union starting as I do a serious competitor emerging. This boxing stuff is great for a handful of guys, but it's a fad and will go away eventually. The UFC might not be quite as dominant as the NFL/NHL/MLB/NBA, but it's pretty damn close. I mean, there are still people that think the sport is UFC and not MMA. There's a KHL that pops up every once in a while, but it's not sustainable, just like these other promotions. If Scott Coker can't build a competitor with the backing of ViacomCBS, I don't think it can be done.

The only thing that might change that is if this lawsuit forces the UFC into loosening up their contracts. Even then, though, it's an uphill battle. Some more guys get to be free agents, but these other promotions still need to be able to pay these guys enough to get them to switch over. I don't know that they can, at least not with enough of them to really put a dent into the UFC.

If that's the case then they are getting paid what's appropriate for the market. It's really hard to get the UFC to move on fighter pay when nobody else is outspending them and we know other promotions are barely making a profit, if at all.

 

[pistolpete11]

If that's the case then they are getting paid what's appropriate for the market. It's really hard to get the UFC to move on fighter pay when nobody else is outspending them and we know other promotions are barely making a profit, if at all.

That's why nothing has or will change without a union, competition, or legislation, but like I said before, I don't think NFL players should be making a fraction of what they are currently because the CFL can't afford to pay their players more. The athletes are the majority of the reason fans tune in and that's what generates the revenue for the company. They should be compensated fairly for that.

 

[chicagoskycam]

That's why nothing has or will change without a union, competition, or legislation, but like I said before, I don't think NFL players should be making a fraction of what they are currently because the CFL can't afford to pay their players more. The athletes are the majority of the reason fans tune in and that's what generates the revenue for the company. They should be compensated fairly for that.

Well the NFL is different because they have an anti-trust exemption. I don't believe the UFC has that and it's up to the fighters to form a union but I just don't see it happening. So many people want their shot they would bypass it.

 

[m9]

Different idea - what if instead of fighters starting the union, it's actually an organization that in essence starts it?

For example, Bellator announces that starting in 2023 they will have a collectively bargained contract in place and all fighters signing contracts with them going forward will need to join.

Would it be a good business move for them long-term? I feel like it might be. I think something like this is much more attainable than just a "fighters union".