GDT: UFC 270: Ngannou vs. Gane

[m9]

I don't think Ngannou makes 25 million in a boxing match. That would be crazy and I don't think he'd have that kind of pull. But maybe I'm wrong.

As for the 7 million he's talking about, I bet Ngannou was offered a nice extension before the last Miocic fight including signing bonuses, PPV points, etc. I'm not even sure he got PPV points on this last PPV. So yeah, a signing bonus/new contract/PPV points could get gone to that 7 million number.

 

[pistolpete11]

If Francis can get $25M, he should take it and run, but I'm skeptical he gets anywhere close to that. Is there any evidence that Francis can even draw among MMA fans?

 

[JA17]

If Francis can get $25M, he should take it and run, but I'm skeptical he gets anywhere close to that. Is there any evidence that Francis can even draw among MMA fans?

No there isn't. Which is why I find all the talk about fighter pay coming from his camp funny. Usually the UFC compensates its stars. It's the lesser known fighters that get screwed. If Francis isn't getting the big bucks, and if the UFC was so willing to let him go after this fight, then he probably isn't anywhere near as big a draw as he thinks he is

 

[chicagoskycam]

I don't think Ngannou makes 25 million in a boxing match. That would be crazy and I don't think he'd have that kind of pull. But maybe I'm wrong.

As for the 7 million he's talking about, I bet Ngannou was offered a nice extension before the last Miocic fight including signing bonuses, PPV points, etc. I'm not even sure he got PPV points on this last PPV. So yeah, a signing bonus/new contract/PPV points could get gone to that 7 million number.

Yeah, I don't think anyone outside of the MMA world knows who he is and it was the same for Ben Askren. Jake sold that fight and I have no idea what it did along with the Woodley fight but there is no way Ngannou would get 25 million out of it.

 

[Chaels Arms]

No there isn't. Which is why I find all the talk about fighter pay coming from his camp funny. Usually the UFC compensates its stars. It's the lesser known fighters that get screwed. If Francis isn't getting the big bucks, and if the UFC was so willing to let him go after this fight, then he probably isn't anywhere near as big a draw as he thinks he is

"So willing to let him go?" You realize they offered him a contract renewal with a hefty raise right? You realize when he fought Stipe both times the promotion threw all their weight behind him just like they did with Gane for this last fight, right? You realize Ngannou v. Jones is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest fight the promotion can put on right now, right?

The only reason this is happening with Ngannou is because he is the first standing champion to actually have an exit date to free agency under the new standard form contracts the UFC started giving out in 2017. He is the test case. Under the old contracts he'd still be obligated to fight under the champions clause. Both sides are in uncharted waters right now.

Even Chael proposed a good question in his last pod which I hadn't thought of; this is such an unknown situation where there's a UFC champ who can just sit out until his contract expires with no obligation to fight again, would it be understandable for the UFC to strip Ngannou of the belt right now and create a fight for a vacant belt? Why let the belt sit there doing nothing for a year when the fighter holding it has no fights left on his contract?

I can guarantee you we will see similar situations again if guys like Usman and Adesanya get to the same position Ngannou is in right now.

 

[pistolpete11]

No there isn't. Which is why I find all the talk about fighter pay coming from his camp funny. Usually the UFC compensates its stars. It's the lesser known fighters that get screwed. If Francis isn't getting the big bucks, and if the UFC was so willing to let him go after this fight, then he probably isn't anywhere near as big a draw as he thinks he is

Well, the UFC still underpays their stars, too.

Jon Jones is the only one I'm aware of that has said how much he actually makes per fight. Take with a grain of salt given the source, but he said he gets around $5M per fight and these are his known PPV buy numbers:

DC 2 : 860k
DC 1 : 800k
Gus 2 : 700k
Smith : 650k
OSP : 322k

Reyes and Santos aren't known, so probably below 500k. The others are pre-Ronda/Conor boom and the UFC wasn't as popular (though Jones-Rashad still sold 700k). So let's say he averages around 500k PPVs and makes $5M.

Fury-Wilder 3 "sold just under" 600k PPV. Fury made $27M. Wilder made $20M.

So Jones is making <25% what they make for selling 80%+ the number of PPV buys.



My point is not that the UFC shouldn't pay Francis more money. They should pay all of their fighters more money. I just don't think Fury-Francis is as big as some people think and I don't think the PPV sales would be there to give him $20M+.

 

[pistolpete11]

"So willing to let him go?" You realize they offered him a contract renewal with a hefty raise right? You realize when he fought Stipe both times the promotion threw all their weight behind him just like they did with Gane for this last fight, right? You realize Ngannou v. Jones is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest fight the promotion can put on right now, right?

The only reason this is happening with Ngannou is because he is the first standing champion to actually have an exit date to free agency under the new standard form contracts the UFC started giving out in 2017. He is the test case. Under the old contracts he'd still be obligated to fight under the champions clause. Both sides are in uncharted waters right now.

Even Chael proposed a good question in his last pod which I hadn't thought of; this is such an unknown situation where there's a UFC champ who can just sit out until his contract expires with no obligation to fight again, would it be understandable for the UFC to strip Ngannou of the belt right now and create a fight for a vacant belt? Why let the belt sit there doing nothing for a year when the fighter holding it has no fights left on his contract?

I can guarantee you we will see similar situations again if guys like Usman and Adesanya get to the same position Ngannou is in right now.

It's an interesting situation, but I imagine the UFC still wants to keep Francis, Izzy, Usman, etc. They just don't want to pay them If they stripped them, that's almost sealing their fate and they will walk. There might actually be an uproar from the fighters and/or fans if they just keep letting top talent like that leave.

We'll see. It's a very interesting precedence to set either way.

 

[m9]

Well, the UFC still underpays their stars, too.

Jon Jones is the only one I'm aware of that has said how much he actually makes per fight. Take with a grain of salt given the source, but he said he gets around $5M per fight and these are his known PPV buy numbers:

DC 2 : 860k
DC 1 : 800k
Gus 2 : 700k
Smith : 650k
OSP : 322k

Reyes and Santos aren't known, so probably below 500k. The others are pre-Ronda/Conor boom and the UFC wasn't as popular (though Jones-Rashad still sold 700k). So let's say he averages around 500k PPVs and makes $5M.

Fury-Wilder 3 "sold just under" 600k PPV. Fury made $27M. Wilder made $20M.

So Jones is making <25% what they make for selling 80%+ the number of PPV buys.



My point is not that the UFC shouldn't pay Francis more money. They should pay all of their fighters more money. I just don't think Fury-Francis is as big as some people think and I don't think the PPV sales would be there to give him $20M+.

I'm also pretty sure that while Jones said he get around 5M per fight now, he has been pretty clear that he was really underpaid for a looooong time. He probably made 5M for the DC fights with the PPV bump but that's about it.

I guess it's also important to add is that most people think Fury/Wilder actually lost money because of all the expenses and the high purses.. plus the PPV buys came out lower than expected. So that one is probably a bad example to use.. but it doesn't change the overall point. I don't really understand how the boxing pay model works, maybe someone else gets it more than me.

I think there is one other guy whose contract was public last year, at least for one fight - Conor. He said he made $23 million for the Poirier fight (I think it was the 2nd one). That fight sold 1.8 million worldwide and Conor had a 5 million purse. So pretty simple math - he's getting $10/PPV.. which is a pretty crazy number if it's true compared to other fighters. This number actually sounds completely fair to me which is why I think it's a great starting point in terms of what fighters are actually worth.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Well, the UFC still underpays their stars, too.

Jon Jones is the only one I'm aware of that has said how much he actually makes per fight. Take with a grain of salt given the source, but he said he gets around $5M per fight and these are his known PPV buy numbers:

DC 2 : 860k
DC 1 : 800k
Gus 2 : 700k
Smith : 650k
OSP : 322k

Reyes and Santos aren't known, so probably below 500k. The others are pre-Ronda/Conor boom and the UFC wasn't as popular (though Jones-Rashad still sold 700k). So let's say he averages around 500k PPVs and makes $5M.

Fury-Wilder 3 "sold just under" 600k PPV. Fury made $27M. Wilder made $20M.

So Jones is making <25% what they make for selling 80%+ the number of PPV buys.



My point is not that the UFC shouldn't pay Francis more money. They should pay all of their fighters more money. I just don't think Fury-Francis is as big as some people think and I don't think the PPV sales would be there to give him $20M+.

I think this is a difficult comparison for a couple of reasons. Fury/Wilder is about the only interesting fight boxing has had in years and it was a couple of years between rematches. You are also just getting that one fight on a PPV where the UFC is putting on an entire card and some of the co-mains help sell the card plus all the fights add to the expense of the event. If the UFC just sold a PPV for Jones vs. anyone it would not do as well. The UFC is betting the farm on their development system paying a large number of fighters that do not sell PPV's.

I think a change in fighter pay would be more doable if the UFC was solely owned but it's owned and controlled by Endeavor, the other businesses in its portfolio have not been doing very well. I'm not even sure if Dana has the final say on the budget for fights. One thing we agree on is Francis would get destroyed by Fury and it's too early in his career to make that leap IMO.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think this is a difficult comparison for a couple of reasons. Fury/Wilder is about the only interesting fight boxing has had in years and it was a couple of years between rematches. You are also just getting that one fight on a PPV where the UFC is putting on an entire card and some of the co-mains help sell the card plus all the fights add to the expense of the event. If the UFC just sold a PPV for Jones vs. anyone it would not do as well. The UFC is betting the farm on their development system paying a large number of fighters that do not sell PPV's.

I don't know what it was for the Jon Jones cards, but someone reported that the UFC270 undercard cost the UFC $1.8M COMBINED. I imagine it's pretty similar for most UFC events, so it's not even close to making up the difference. I'm all for having more of a middle class in the UFC, but the fighters are unpaid across the board.

There is an undercard for boxing BTW. It's just boxing pacing sucks and they usually have some sort of guarantee when the main event will take place. So it's less prominent on the broadcast.

I think a change in fighter pay would be more doable if the UFC was solely owned but it's owned and controlled by Endeavor, the other businesses in its portfolio have not been doing very well. I'm not even sure if Dana has the final say on the budget for fights. One thing we agree on is Francis would get destroyed by Fury and it's too early in his career to make that leap IMO.

It might be easier to do something about it, but the UFC doesn't want to do it. This has been the UFC's MO since the Fertittas and Dana took over. They might not have as much of a say anymore, but even if they did, this is their strategy.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I don't know what it was for the Jon Jones cards, but someone reported that the UFC270 undercard cost the UFC $1.8M COMBINED. I imagine it's pretty similar for most UFC events, so it's not even close to making up the difference. I'm all for having more of a middle class in the UFC, but the fighters are unpaid across the board.

There is an undercard for boxing BTW. It's just boxing pacing sucks and they usually have some sort of guarantee when the main event will take place. So it's less prominent on the broadcast.


It might be easier to do something about it, but the UFC doesn't want to do it. This has been the UFC's MO since the Fertittas and Dana took over. They might not have as much of a say anymore, but even if they did, this is their strategy.

It's always going to be a negotiation and that will never change. Some fighters will always ask or demand more. We see this consistently in sports like the NFL where revenue sharing is 50/50. Players hold out and refuse to play until they get another contract. There will always be a few but we have other champions in the UFC that you never hear about contract issues or pay.

The UFC has competition, unlike other professional sports in the U.S. When they start signing superstar fighters away in their prime that should help but it really doesn't happen. Some of the fighters in the middle have been able to make the switch and get paid more. UFC 270 was an extremely weak card outside of the two mains.

 

[pistolpete11]

It's always going to be a negotiation and that will never change. Some fighters will always ask or demand more. We see this consistently in sports like the NFL where revenue sharing is 50/50. Players hold out and refuse to play until they get another contract. There will always be a few but we have other champions in the UFC that you never hear about contract issues or pay.

There will always be individual negotiations, but it doesn't change the fact the UFC's target is to keep fighter pay below 18% of revenue. Until that changes, the fighters are right to demand more.

Just because other champions aren't complaining publicly about their contracts doesn't mean they aren't underpaid.

The UFC has competition, unlike other professional sports in the U.S. When they start signing superstar fighters away in their prime that should help but it really doesn't happen. Some of the fighters in the middle have been able to make the switch and get paid more. UFC 270 was an extremely weak card outside of the two mains.

UFC270 wasn't a great card, but it's negligible. Even a stacked card isn't going to make up the difference between what Jones makes and what Fury or Wilder make. Not even close.

 

[Epictetus]

Aren't these fighters 'independent contractors' and also exclusive to the UFC?

That's part of this discussion that needs more play in the media.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Aren't these fighters 'independent contractors' and also exclusive to the UFC?

That's part of this discussion that needs more play in the media.

yeah but they sign contracts committing to the UFC. The UFC needs to lose more top guys to competitors in order for things to change. Francis seems to have found a loop hole

 

[m9]

The problem has always been that other mma organizations pay either just as bad as the UFC and in most cases they pay even worse. This boxing push has given some fighters more leverage and that's a great thing. We'll see how long it lasts.

 

[chicagoskycam]

The problem has always been that other mma organizations pay either just as bad as the UFC and in most cases they pay even worse. This boxing push has given some fighters more leverage and that's a great thing. We'll see how long it lasts.

yeah I don’t fully understand the expense structure of the UFC and I don’t believe their financials are public information. I would think if another organization could out spend them and make money, they would

 

[pistolpete11]

A lot of the UFC's financials were made public as part of the lawsuit. That's how people know the fighters are only getting 18%. I tried to find the article that goes through it, but couldn't find it now. I think it was Bloody Elbow or MMA Fighting, but could be wrong. If memory serves, they include USADA as part of fighter pay, too. So really, it's only like 15-16% of revenue that actually gets paid out to the fighters.

Bellator, ONE, PFL, etc. can't afford to pay the same as the UFC. They will strategically pick and choose some big names to sign away from the UFC, but for most fighters their best bet is to sign with the UFC...but that doesn't mean they aren't underpaid. That's like saying NFL players should be making $100k's instead of $1M's because hey...at least it's more than the CFL can pay.

I don't know what the split should be exactly, but look around. All the other sports leagues are around 50/50. When I looked this up before I think golf or tennis was the lowest besides the UFC and the athletes were still getting like 35% of revenue (edit: golfers and tennis players are also much more free to get their own sponsorships than UFC fighters).

It's a 'free market' (although we'll see how free the courts decide it really is) and ultimately it's on the fighters to do something to change it (i.e. unionize, policy changes). Until then, it is what it is, but the fighters are underpaid and are right to demand more. Most of the time it's not going to work, though, because they will just move on to the next guy in line. That's probably going to happen with Francis, too, but it's a unique situation because he could at least get out of his contract.

 

[m9]

yeah I don’t fully understand the expense structure of the UFC and I don’t believe their financials are public information. I would think if another organization could out spend them and make money, they would

Yeah, that's the catch. Easy to outspend the UFC but they are so good at what they do that it's hard to outspend them and make money. Bellator is barely a successful business and that's with a TV deal, gate revenues, and arguably the 2nd best promoter/President in Scott Coker. I think the only way someone else would have been able to compete with the UFC was if someone else took that ESPN spot, stole some top fighters, and then built things out from there. The UFC/ESPN partnership pretty much killed the competition and any potential competition.

The only guy who could really do anything about it right now would be Conor. If he left and started his own organization I think he could legitimately create something. It would have to be done right and built with a sustainable model, but I do think it's possible.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Yeah, that's the catch. Easy to outspend the UFC but they are so good at what they do that it's hard to outspend them and make money. Bellator is barely a successful business and that's with a TV deal, gate revenues, and arguably the 2nd best promoter/President in Scott Coker. I think the only way someone else would have been able to compete with the UFC was if someone else took that ESPN spot, stole some top fighters, and then built things out from there. The UFC/ESPN partnership pretty much killed the competition and any potential competition.

The only guy who could really do anything about it right now would be Conor. If he left and started his own organization I think he could legitimately create something. It would have to be done right and built with a sustainable model, but I do think it's possible.

Conor definitely has the money to back it but I think he's smart enough not to sink his money into something that risky. Khabib is making some moves.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think the chances of a serious UFC competitor died when they bought Strikeforce, if not when they bought Pride.

 

[chicagoskycam]

A lot of the UFC's financials were made public as part of the lawsuit. That's how people know the fighters are only getting 18%. I tried to find the article that goes through it, but couldn't find it now. I think it was Bloody Elbow or MMA Fighting, but could be wrong. If memory serves, they include USADA as part of fighter pay, too. So really, it's only like 15-16% of revenue that actually gets paid out to the fighters.

Bellator, ONE, PFL, etc. can't afford to pay the same as the UFC. They will strategically pick and choose some big names to sign away from the UFC, but for most fighters their best bet is to sign with the UFC...but that doesn't mean they aren't underpaid. That's like saying NFL players should be making $100k's instead of $1M's because hey...at least it's more than the CFL can pay.

I don't know what the split should be exactly, but look around. All the other sports leagues are around 50/50. When I looked this up before I think golf or tennis was the lowest besides the UFC and the athletes were still getting like 35% of revenue (edit: golfers and tennis players are also much more free to get their own sponsorships than UFC fighters).

It's a 'free market' (although we'll see how free the courts decide it really is) and ultimately it's on the fighters to do something to change it (i.e. unionize, policy changes). Until then, it is what it is, but the fighters are underpaid and are right to demand more. Most of the time it's not going to work, though, because they will just move on to the next guy in line. That's probably going to happen with Francis, too, but it's a unique situation because he could at least get out of his contract.

Yeah, it's really difficult to find any info. I'm just not sure if the UFC expense structure compares to other sports where you have individual owners that own stadiums, sell apparel, and what not. The NFL is just a monster in terms of revenue so getting to 50/50 might be easier in that business but even those players hold out for more money.

The fighters would need to start a union in order to get more. I think ultimately the best solution is more outs on their contracts but this will also provide a bad experience for fans in terms of matchups. With Boxing, they are more of independent contractors per fight after a certain level and we know what a mess that is.

 

[pistolpete11]

Yeah, it's really difficult to find any info. I'm just not sure if the UFC expense structure compares to other sports where you have individual owners that own stadiums, sell apparel, and what not. The NFL is just a monster in terms of revenue so getting to 50/50 might be easier in that business but even those players hold out for more money.

The fighters would need to start a union in order to get more. I think ultimately the best solution is more outs on their contracts but this will also provide a bad experience for fans in terms of matchups. With Boxing, they are more of independent contractors per fight after a certain level and we know what a mess that is.

Found it.

What we now know about the UFC’s finances

I don't see why the NFL generating more revenue matters. That's why people usually talk about it in terms of a percentage. The UFC says they are setting records every year, so it's not like they are struggling to stay alive and would fold if they paid the fighters more.

You're right that it is a different business and it may not be the same split as the NFL or any other league. But I would love to hear the argument why it is 30 percentage points different because I have a feeling it would be a total BS argument.

Nobody is saying increasing the revenue split will stop contract disputes. That doesn't factor into the conversation at all. The point is, the fighters are underpaid and are correct to be asking for more money. If we get to a point where the split it's 'fair', then we can talk about whether Fighter X is right or wrong to be holding out for more money. Until then, they are all right to be demanding more money.

I think the best solution is a fighter union. I'd much rather the UFC turn into the NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL than boxing and I think it is the best for the majority of fighters, too.

 

[m9]

I think the best solution is a fighter union. I'd much rather the UFC turn into the NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL than boxing and I think it is the

The best solution would be actual competition for the UFC so the fighters have leverage. This has proven to be effective in the past, even for small pockets of time with Pride/Affliction/EliteFC/etc. Fighters got some big paydays there.

A fighter union is just so unlikely. Hardcore MMA fans have been talking about fighter pay for 15 years and a union has always been brought up. Fighters have never been motivated to do it and there is nothing to suggest it will change.

 

[pistolpete11]

The best solution would be actual competition for the UFC so the fighters have leverage. This has proven to be effective in the past, even for small pockets of time with Pride/Affliction/EliteFC/etc. Fighters got some big paydays there.

A fighter union is just so unlikely. Hardcore MMA fans have been talking about fighter pay for 15 years and a union has always been brought up. Fighters have never been motivated to do it and there is nothing to suggest it will change.

I think competition is probably better for the top end guys, but a union would be better for the majority of fighters. I don't know if you'd call it 'leverage', but a union provides some protection and some guarantees. I also think a union is better for fans. Splintering off into a bunch of different promotions sounds like boxing and boxing sucks.

I think a union is unlikely, but I think serious competition to the UFC is also unlikely. I mean, there's a reason those promotions you named didn't stick around and that was back when the UFC wasn't as established as they are now.

 

[m9]

I think competition is probably better for the top end guys, but a union would be better for the majority of fighters. I don't know if you'd call it 'leverage', but a union provides some protection and some guarantees. I also think a union is better for fans. Splintering off into a bunch of different promotions sounds like boxing and boxing sucks.

I think a union is unlikely, but I think serious competition to the UFC is also unlikely. I mean, there's a reason those promotions you named didn't stick around and that was back when the UFC wasn't as established as they are now.

Sure a union would probably be better for them. But like I said, fighters have shown basically zero interest in a union for 15 years. People need to understand that certain groups of people are not going to be interested in a union and it's pretty clear by now that MMA fighters (or fighters in general) are one of those groups. Until fighters show serious interest in starting one, bringing it up serves no purpose other than virtue signaling so people can say they care about fighters.

The leverage thing is tough. This faux-boxing stuff has created leverage for some guys recently, but not enough. Mike Perry got more than $250k for his first Triad fight. That seems good enough. They need more of that kind of stuff. If these organizations are run by the right people, maybe they can stick around.

The really under-reported part in all of this is just how Bellator has taken a big dive in terms of relevance the last couple of years. That was supposed to be the #2 who could threaten the UFC and that gap has never been wider.