GDT: UFC 230: Cormier vs. Lewis

[Neutrinos]

My thoughts from the Stipe vs DC thread:

Up until the knockout, Cormier really didn't look very good, but then again, either did Stipe

I'm not sure what his game plan was heading into the fight, but Stipe did a lousy job of using his jab to keep distance. He has nearly a 5 inch reach advantage, but you wouldn't have known it watching the fight

I kept thinking 'why is Stipe standing so close to him?'



Not sure how anyone can look at Cormier's standup game and think that looks anything other than amateurish

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I believe both Cormier and Couture were in their 30's before entering MMA, so that could have something to do with it

Had they spent their 20's getting punched in the face, they may not have aged so well

It's true however it's not like they did nothing. DC was in Olympic wrestling and Couture was in the military. Not taking punches to the face but not exactly a desk job either. It probably prolonged their career but 40 is 40 regardless.

It's not like we can say X hockey player played no contact hockey for first 8 years of his life so he can win art ross at 40 now. Age is still a big factor.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

My thoughts from the Stipe vs DC thread:

Up until the knockout, Cormier really didn't look very good, but then again, either did Stipe

I'm not sure what his game plan was heading into the fight, but Stipe did a lousy job of using his jab to keep distance. He has nearly a 5 inch reach advantage, but you wouldn't have known it watching the fight

I kept thinking 'why is Stipe standing so close to him?'



Not sure how anyone can look at Cormier's standup game and think that looks anything other than amateurish

Before the fight DC said that Stipe boxes and wrestles and he feels he(DC) is better at both. He commented on despite the reach Stipe doesn't use it so it was easy for him.

 

[1specter]

My thoughts from the Stipe vs DC thread:

Up until the knockout, Cormier really didn't look very good, but then again, either did Stipe

I'm not sure what his game plan was heading into the fight, but Stipe did a lousy job of using his jab to keep distance. He has nearly a 5 inch reach advantage, but you wouldn't have known it watching the fight

I kept thinking 'why is Stipe standing so close to him?'



Not sure how anyone can look at Cormier's standup game and think that looks anything other than amateurish

Definitely don't agree. DC has some of the best dirty boxing/clinch boxing in the sport. He was feeling Stipe out and even in the post fight he commented how Stipe drops his hand in the clinch and he timed that specifically. DC is a very smart fighter and knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[1specter]

It's true however it's not like they did nothing. DC was in Olympic wrestling and Couture was in the military. Not taking punches to the face but not exactly a desk job either. It probably prolonged their career but 40 is 40 regardless.

It's not like we can say X hockey player played no contact hockey for first 8 years of his life so he can win art ross at 40 now. Age is still a big factor.

Fighting is different though, fight years are a real thing. Generally, most fighters start to hit a hard decline after 7-9 years of being competitive/pro on average. There's also other factors like how many wars they were in and how much damage they took etc. Taking impact to the brain is vastly different from just having musculoskeletal injuries.

A good example is Rory MacDonald. Came to the UFC when he was only 19 and fought high level opponents since he was like 20 years old (that's how old he was when he got TKO'd by Condit). Many people saw Rory as the future of the UFC but after that war with Robbie Lawler he was never quite the same and has seemed to have gotten continuously worse since then.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Fighting is different though, fight years are a real thing. Generally, most fighters start to hit a hard decline after 7-9 years of being competitive/pro on average. There's also other factors like how many wars they were in and how much damage they took etc. Taking impact to the brain is vastly different from just having musculoskeletal injuries.

A good example is Rory MacDonald. Came to the UFC when he was only 19 and fought high level opponents since he was like 20 years old (that's how old he was when he got TKO'd by Condit). Many people saw Rory as the future of the UFC but after that war with Robbie Lawler he was never quite the same and has seemed to have gotten continuously worse since then.

McDonald is currently a champ.

Like I said I agree but 39 is still 39. This isn’t flyweight. DC spent a lot of time at HW and LHW his whole career. You spoke about 7-9 years but he’s on year 10 and dominating. He’ll slow down but year 10 and 39 too. That’s not easy.

 

[pistolpete11]

My thoughts from the Stipe vs DC thread:

Up until the knockout, Cormier really didn't look very good, but then again, either did Stipe

I'm not sure what his game plan was heading into the fight, but Stipe did a lousy job of using his jab to keep distance. He has nearly a 5 inch reach advantage, but you wouldn't have known it watching the fight

I kept thinking 'why is Stipe standing so close to him?'



Not sure how anyone can look at Cormier's standup game and think that looks anything other than amateurish

Dude, he was fighting arguably the best HW of all time with an 8 inch reach disadvantage. He was able to avoid any major damage while closing the gap to land some shots of his own and eventually knocked him out. You just proved everybody else's point.

 

[Jasper]

Cormier's boxing is not amateurish. An amateurish boxer doesn't win as many fights as he has with strikes, beating Stipe and hanging in with Jones on his feet.

 

[pistolpete11]

Main event went as expected. DC is just way too good and was able to do whatever he wanted in there. I guess one positive for Lewis is that he really didn't take any damage tonight and probably got paid very well.

Co-main was a great fight. I feel for Weidman because he looked really good and this was very similar to the Romero fight. He was once again up on the scorecards heading into the third round and then suffers a pretty brutal KO. Nice comeback for Jacare though and he put himself right back in the title picture. I'm not sure where they go from here but I wouldn't be against a Romero rematch after how close the first one was.

Impressive win for Cannonier. Branch is a tough guy and Cannonier went in there on short notice and made it look easy. Smart decision to move to MW.

Adesanya is the clear star coming out of this event and that was really a perfect performance for him. Showed off his takedown defense early and then closed it with some incredible striking. I think he's ready for a top five opponent next.

Was Wideman up on the scorecard? I thought he took the first, but I would have given the second to Jacare. Both were close rounds, though.

Jacare-Romero rematch would be great if Romero doesn't move up (which I think he should). Jacare-Rockhold rematch from Strikeforce would be interesting. Or...Stylebender.

The more I look at Jacare's resume, though..... That guy's had one hell of a career. For how long he's been doing it and the killers he faced, his only losses are against some of the best guys in the world. Mousasi (which he later redeemed), Rockhold former Strikeforce and UFC champ, a split decision to Romero the guy that just fought for the title 3 times in a row, the current champ Whittaker, and a split decision to Gastelum who will be fighting for the belt next. I guess maybe the criticism would be that he hasn't beat the true top end guys enough.

 

[Avs_19]

Was Wideman up on the scorecard? I thought he took the first, but I would have given the second to Jacare. Both were close rounds, though.

Jacare-Romero rematch would be great if Romero doesn't move up (which I think he should). Jacare-Rockhold rematch from Strikeforce would be interesting. Or...Stylebender.

The more I look at Jacare's resume, though..... That guy's had one hell of a career. For how long he's been doing it and the killers he faced, his only losses are against some of the best guys in the world. Mousasi (which he later redeemed), Rockhold former Strikeforce and UFC champ, a split decision to Romero the guy that just fought for the title 3 times in a row, the current champ Whittaker, and a split decision to Gastelum who will be fighting for the belt next. I guess maybe the criticism would be that he hasn't beat the true top end guys enough.

Two judges had Weidman up 2-0 and the third had it 1-1.

Agree about Jacare. He has had a great career and it's unfortunate he hasn't been able to fight for the UFC belt yet. He just keeps coming up a bit short in the big fights.

 

[1specter]

McDonald is currently a champ.

Like I said I agree but 39 is still 39. This isn’t flyweight. DC spent a lot of time at HW and LHW his whole career. You spoke about 7-9 years but he’s on year 10 and dominating. He’ll slow down but year 10 and 39 too. That’s not easy.

He's the champ in a second rate organization. He lost to Wonderboy and Lawler twice. This guy was supposed to be the next GSP. His nose is also ruined forever.

As for DC, he wasn't in many wars and he's a smart fighter who hasn't been rocked much. He's the cream of the crop and one of the greatest fighters of all time. The great elites are usually exceptions anyways

 

[La Masse]

I have no interest in watching Cormier vs Lesnar. Cormier is going to eat him alive. Cormier has two fights left IMO. A rematch with Miocic and a 3rd fight with Jones

 

[m9]

Miocic should spend less time asking for a rematch and more time going out and winning another fight to earn that rematch.

 

[I am not exposed]

Was Wideman up on the scorecard? I thought he took the first, but I would have given the second to Jacare. Both were close rounds, though.

Jacare-Romero rematch would be great if Romero doesn't move up (which I think he should). Jacare-Rockhold rematch from Strikeforce would be interesting. Or...Stylebender.

The more I look at Jacare's resume, though..... That guy's had one hell of a career. For how long he's been doing it and the killers he faced, his only losses are against some of the best guys in the world. Mousasi (which he later redeemed), Rockhold former Strikeforce and UFC champ, a split decision to Romero the guy that just fought for the title 3 times in a row, the current champ Whittaker, and a split decision to Gastelum who will be fighting for the belt next. I guess maybe the criticism would be that he hasn't beat the true top end guys enough.

The second round had two judges with 10-9 for Wideman. Although I also thought Jacare won the second round.

 

[Neutrinos]

I have no interest in watching Cormier vs Lesnar. Cormier is going to eat him alive. Cormier has two fights left IMO. A rematch with Miocic and a 3rd fight with Jones

Lesnar was 106 - 5 as an NCAA Division 1 wrestler

So while I have no doubt Cormier has a ferocious appetite, I'm not convinced Lesnar isn't more than he can chew

 

[La Masse]

Lesnar was 106 - 5 as an NCAA Division 1 wrestler

So while I have no doubt Cormier has a ferocious appetite, I'm not convinced Lesnar isn't more than he can chew

Lesnar has no striking. When two wrestlers face off it often ends up in a striking match and Cormier is a better boxer and has a better chin then Brock. Miocic would be a more interesting matchup even if DC already won but I understand Cormier wanting to fight Lesnar for the big payday

 

[Marcobruin]

Cormier is simply amazing.. overweight ...makes me think of the older version of George foreman type. Just a phenomenal wrestler.. Brock has no chance vs
Cormier..Frank Mir beat Brock on a choke .... Although Frank is quite good on the floor ....he's no Cormier

 

[I am the Liquor]

Lesnar was 106 - 5 as an NCAA Division 1 wrestler

So while I have no doubt Cormier has a ferocious appetite, I'm not convinced Lesnar isn't more than he can chew

Lesnar is a bully who shrivels up when punched. He can’t take a punch. He isn’t cut out for the octagon. He should stick to wwe where the punches are fake.

 

[m9]

I think there was a time (5 years ago+) when Lesnar would have beaten Cormier, or at least made it a really compelling fight.

Lesnar just isn't an MMA fighter anymore, and Cormier has developed into one of the best ever.

 

[SuperScript29]

I love DC, but if he has one fight left it needs to be with Jon Jones if he cares about his legacy. I get that the Brock fight is a money day, but the only man to beat him is Jones, if he does not try to avenge his losses and retires, not sure I'd put him in the GOAT discussion.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think there was a time (5 years ago+) when Lesnar would have beaten Cormier, or at least made it a really compelling fight.

Lesnar just isn't an MMA fighter anymore, and Cormier has developed into one of the best ever.

And when Brock was taking every steroid he could get his hands on. I'd still have given DC a decent chance to win, though. His striking is just so much better. I'd guess Brock is a better wrestler mainly because of his size, but the advantage wouldn't be anywhere near as big as DC's on the feet.

I love DC, but if he has one fight left it needs to be with Jon Jones if he cares about his legacy. I get that the Brock fight is a money day, but the only man to beat him is Jones, if he does not try to avenge his losses and retires, not sure I'd put him in the GOAT discussion.

I'm still half expecting him to fight Brock and then make an exception to fight Jones after his self imposed retirement date. You know, "I thought I could walk away, but I just couldn't live with myself knowing that he beat me." It would sell the fight even more since people wouldn't be expecting it. Although, there is also the possibility that DC doesn't really believe he can beat Jones and that fighting him a 3rd time is a big risk. Maybe he's satisfied with being the champ-champ and believes that puts him in the conversation.

GOAT for me depends on if you exclude guys busted for PEDs. If you do, I think it is GSP with DC a distant 2nd. Unless he beats Jones, then I think they are neck and neck. If you don't, then I think it is Jones, Anderson, and GSP in some order. Again, DC puts himself in the conversation if he were to beat Jones.

Fedor and Mighty Mouse might be somewhere in there, too. It's just too bad Fedor never fought in the UFC and Might Mouse's competition was so questionable.

 

[m9]

And when Brock was taking every steroid he could get his hands on. I'd still have given DC a decent chance to win, though. His striking is just so much better. I'd guess Brock is a better wrestler mainly because of his size, but the advantage wouldn't be anywhere near as big as DC's on the feet.

I'm still half expecting him to fight Brock and then make an exception to fight Jones after his self imposed retirement date. You know, "I thought I could walk away, but I just couldn't live with myself knowing that he beat me." It would sell the fight even more since people wouldn't be expecting it. Although, there is also the possibility that DC doesn't really believe he can beat Jones and that fighting him a 3rd time is a big risk. Maybe he's satisfied with being the champ-champ and believes that puts him in the conversation.

GOAT for me depends on if you exclude guys busted for PEDs. If you do, I think it is GSP with DC a distant 2nd. Unless he beats Jones, then I think they are neck and neck. If you don't, then I think it is Jones, Anderson, and GSP in some order. Again, DC puts himself in the conversation if he were to beat Jones.

Fedor and Mighty Mouse might be somewhere in there, too. It's just too bad Fedor never fought in the UFC and Might Mouse's competition was so questionable.

This is where I'm at too. DC's a smart guy, and he knows that Jon Jones is better than him. Go out on top making money, not crying in the cage after getting finished again. And yeah, Jones had a tainted supplement or whatever.. at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. He beat DC easily the first time, as well. DC can beat Lesnar and then go out with a legitimate question to whether or not he's the best of all-time in the minds of people who leave off "cheaters" like Jones.

Fedor isn't close to me, thought he's in my top ten.

Jon Jones, GSP, DC, Anderson Silva. That's my Mt Rushmore right now. I think you have the best fighter of all-time at each of the 4 biggest divisions.

 

[SuperScript29]

I'm still half expecting him to fight Brock and then make an exception to fight Jones after his self imposed retirement date. You know, "I thought I could walk away, but I just couldn't live with myself knowing that he beat me." It would sell the fight even more since people wouldn't be expecting it. Although, there is also the possibility that DC doesn't really believe he can beat Jones and that fighting him a 3rd time is a big risk. Maybe he's satisfied with being the champ-champ and believes that puts him in the conversation.

GOAT for me depends on if you exclude guys busted for PEDs. If you do, I think it is GSP with DC a distant 2nd. Unless he beats Jones, then I think they are neck and neck. If you don't, then I think it is Jones, Anderson, and GSP in some order. Again, DC puts himself in the conversation if he were to beat Jones.

Fedor and Mighty Mouse might be somewhere in there, too. It's just too bad Fedor never fought in the UFC and Might Mouse's competition was so questionable.

If DC beats Brock and decides to retire, it's because he does not think he can beat Jones. Cheater or not, I doubt the tainted supplement was the reason Jon knocked DC into oblivion in their last fight.

If DC does retire, I would have a lot more respect for him if he admits that Jones was simply the better fighter between them, there's no shame in losing to one of the greatest of all time (Likely the GOAT).

 

[pistolpete11]

This is where I'm at too. DC's a smart guy, and he knows that Jon Jones is better than him. Go out on top making money, not crying in the cage after getting finished again. And yeah, Jones had a tainted supplement or whatever.. at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. He beat DC easily the first time, as well. DC can beat Lesnar and then go out with a legitimate question to whether or not he's the best of all-time in the minds of people who leave off "cheaters" like Jones.

Fedor isn't close to me, thought he's in my top ten.

Jon Jones, GSP, DC, Anderson Silva. That's my Mt Rushmore right now. I think you have the best fighter of all-time at each of the 4 biggest divisions.

I'm more skeptical of the tainted supplement excuse than it sounds like you are. I mean, he snitched to get a reduce sentence. So either he's involved with PEDs somehow or the UFC straight up told USADA what they wanted them to do.

But I agree. I think Jones is just too tall and too good at using that length for DC. I think skill-wise, they are really close to each other. But Jones is able to neutralize DC's greatest strength by keeping him at distance. If they had it at HW, it would add a little intrigue for me since DC would have more power and wouldn't have to worry about the weight cut. But I think Jones would still win.

If DC beats Brock and decides to retire, it's because he does not think he can beat Jones. Cheater or not, I doubt the tainted supplement was the reason Jon knocked DC into oblivion in their last fight.

If DC does retire, I would have a lot more respect for him if he admits that Jones was simply the better fighter between them, there's no shame in losing to one of the greatest of all time (Likely the GOAT).

DC admits he lost to Jones twice all the time. I'm sure he questions what Jones was on and maybe even has questioned it in interviews, but I don't think that's unfair. Jones has failed 2 tests. Look at how many times DC has been tested in his career and he's never once failed.

 

[m9]

I'm more skeptical of the tainted supplement excuse than it sounds like you are. I mean, he snitched to get a reduce sentence. So either he's involved with PEDs somehow or the UFC straight up told USADA what they wanted them to do.

But I agree. I think Jones is just too tall and too good at using that length for DC. I think skill-wise, they are really close to each other. But Jones is able to neutralize DC's greatest strength by keeping him at distance. If they had it at HW, it would add a little intrigue for me since DC would have more power and wouldn't have to worry about the weight cut. But I think Jones would still win.


DC admits he lost to Jones twice all the time. I'm sure he questions what Jones was on and maybe even has questioned it in interviews, but I don't think that's unfair. Jones has failed 2 tests. Look at how many times DC has been tested in his career and he's never once failed.

I have no idea if Jones was taking anything on purpose. Jones makes stupid decisions all the time so he has no credibility, but the timing of when he got busted really makes no sense for someone who was actually using something.

There's also a ton of misinformation out there in terms of the reduced sentence and snitching that people are taking at face value because they treat media like Chael Sonnen's words as actual fact when it has been proven that he was wrong about this whole situation. Jones suspension is perfectly in-line with them finding that he didn't take anything on purpose and that's an aside from the "snitching" reduction. People need to actually research these tests because you can see when it's obvious someone was cheating and when there may have been something else going on. Compare Jon Jones test to what came up for guys like Sonnen, Belfort, and dozens of others and you can see the difference.

I agree with the other stuff about DC - he admits he lost to Jones. The other thing is, it's MMA.. you don't need to "admit" someone is better than you. We've seen them fight - Jon Jones is better. It's true whether or not DC admits it.