UEFA Champions League Qualifying Rounds 2020-21

[Jersey Fresh]

I posted last year I think it was that Leipzig's spending wasn't really out of line with other big German clubs, they were just new and had a corporate backer, and was less than many English clubs from top of the table to mid table. Leipzig has just been really well run, and probably one of their smartest decisions is having a smaller stature feeder club in Austria as well. I don't know why more big clubs don't go out and buy themselves a feeder club in another league that they can use for development.

I really think they need to do away with that ownership structure, though. I hate the idea of single entities shuffling players around the world and using other leagues as incubators for players.

 

[AB13]

Leipzig are in the CL because of their excellent transfer work & brilliant coach, not just their money. Plenty of english teams have greater resources than Leipzig and do a lot less with those resources. Like Arsenal, they are richer than Leipzig but because their management has sucked for a decade, they are nowhere near as good as Leipzig and the CL would be a poorer competition if they replaced Leipzig.

Without a bit of financial doping and a very questionable ownership structure in the first place Leipzig would not be in this position with these players though. They would have been able to afford one of the best managers in the world. Leipzig are also in it because they play in the Bundesliga. They would probably finish 6th, 7th or 8th in the Premier League ( as Arsenal might this season considering Arteta isn't going anywhere). But yes, Leipzig is not as bad as Manchester City or Chelsea, nowhere close, but they still are a "plastic club", very much so.

Arsenals management has not been good enough since Wenger left, we can agree on that. But up until 2017 Arsenals management was very good considering the budget which is why we always finished 2nd - 4th, which I angered me at the time because I expect Arsenal to regularly win leagues, but now I realize just how incredibly good of a job Wenger did in the Emirates era aswell. My

 

[Havre]

This idea that you cannot compete with the "old aristocracy" without RedBull or some random oil money paying for it is obviously false. There will never be a full agreement there, but teams like Spurs have gone from a mid table club to playing regularly in the CL without buying full backs for 100m every summer. Liverpool has become a power house without having nearly the same resources as the biggest clubs. And teams like Man Utd and Arsenal are struggling even if they had 20 years or something with CL football to build a foundation that would never allow teams like Spurs to ever catch up (Liverpool for that matter as well - who never won the league in that period - even if they had some success in Europe).

The newly rich are not really ruining anything for the likes of BM, RM, Barcelona, Man Utd etc. - they are blocking teams like Spurs who have build stone on stone patiently becoming competitive. Probably many more teams as well like Lyon, AM etc. - but I don't know the story well enough at those teams to say.

Anyway - loved the picture. Really cool to see that the PL has become much more open. And some will probably argue that is because of the likes of City - I don't believe that to be the case, but I can hardly prove that. Whatever is the reason for the change it is a much more interesting league now than it was 15 years ago. And it shows why I find Spain so boring. Hopefully we can see a change there as well, but I doubt it. Too much politics.

 

[cgf]

Without a bit of financial doping and a very questionable ownership structure in the first place Leipzig would not be in this position with these players though. They would have been able to afford one of the best managers in the world. Leipzig are also in it because they play in the Bundesliga. They would probably finish 6th, 7th or 8th in the Premier League ( as Arsenal might this season considering Arteta isn't going anywhere). But yes, Leipzig is not as bad as Manchester City or Chelsea, nowhere close, but they still are a "plastic club", very much so.

Arsenals management has not been good enough since Wenger left, we can agree on that. But up until 2017 Arsenals management was very good considering the budget which is why we always finished 2nd - 4th, which I angered me at the time because I expect Arsenal to regularly win leagues, but now I realize just how incredibly good of a job Wenger did in the Emirates era aswell. My

This might be the funniest thing you've said yet lol

 

[cgf]

This idea that you cannot compete with the "old aristocracy" without RedBull or some random oil money paying for it is obviously false. There will never be a full agreement there, but teams like Spurs have gone from a mid table club to playing regularly in the CL without buying full backs for 100m every summer. Liverpool has become a power house without having nearly the same resources as the biggest clubs. And teams like Man Utd and Arsenal are struggling even if they had 20 years or something with CL football to build a foundation that would never allow teams like Spurs to ever catch up (Liverpool for that matter as well - who never won the league in that period - even if they had some success in Europe).

The newly rich are not really ruining anything for the likes of BM, RM, Barcelona, Man Utd etc. - they are blocking teams like Spurs who have build stone on stone patiently becoming competitive. Probably many more teams as well like Lyon, AM etc. - but I don't know the story well enough at those teams to say.

Anyway - loved the picture. Really cool to see that the PL has become much more open. And some will probably argue that is because of the likes of City - I don't believe that to be the case, but I can hardly prove that. Whatever is the reason for the change it is a much more interesting league now than it was 15 years ago. And it shows why I find Spain so boring. Hopefully we can see a change there as well, but I doubt it. Too much politics.

You know who else has done that? Leipzig.

 

[Havre]

You know who else has done that? Leipzig.

Well. Obviously not spent the same way as City have, but still.

I would absolutely hate it if football became a random group of teams like RedBull Leipzig where big companies buy up teams to make marketing material out of them.

Not that I think everything was perfect before teams like City, Anzhi, RedBull etc started to pop up. I get it that many thinks it is some sort of lesser evil compared to the "old big" clubs controlling everything.

This will probably quickly turn quite off topic. This has been discussed many times before - and I believe I'm in the minority here. Even if Spurs, which is my team, is hardly among the "old elite".

 

[cgf]

Well. Obviously not spent the same way as City have, but still.

I would absolutely hate it if football became a random group of teams like RedBull Leipzig where big companies buy up teams to make marketing material out of them.

Not that I think everything was perfect before teams like City, Anzhi, RedBull etc started to pop up. I get it that many thinks it is some sort of lesser evil compared to the "old big" clubs controlling everything.

This will probably quickly turn quite off topic. This has been discussed many times before - and I believe I'm in the minority here. Even if Spurs, which is my team, is hardly among the "old elite".

But still what? Who cares about their corporate owners when they're spending the same as their competitors?

 

[Havre]

But still what? Who cares about their corporate owners when they're spending the same as their competitors?

I don't mind spending - it is a question where the money comes from. Why shouldn't Manchester United spend the money they are earning? Or Bayern?

I do not see anything positive with teams like Red Bull Leipzig and Anzhi. But that is my view. Others think it is fun because it changes things up. And there is an argument to be made that we lost something in football in the 90s. If you look at which teams played in European finals etc. you had a much wider variety before compared to what we see now (or certainly would have seen without all the oil money). So I would agree with the "problem" - just not that companies like Red Bull and oil money being the solution.

 

[Blender]

I don't mind spending - it is a question where the money comes from. Why shouldn't Manchester United spend the money they are earning? Or Bayern?

I do not see anything positive with teams like Red Bull Leipzig and Anzhi. But that is my view. Others think it is fun because it changes things up. And there is an argument to be made that we lost something in football in the 90s. If you look at which teams played in European finals etc. you had a much wider variety before compared to what we see now (or certainly would have seen without all the oil money). So I would agree with the "problem" - just not that companies like Red Bull and oil money being the solution.

Usually clubs like Leipzig spend into a hole at first but eventually become sustainable. That's essentially what happened to Chelsea, Abramoich spent huge into a hole for years to build the club up, but for the last decade they have operated within their means. PSG and Manchester City have been the exception here I'd say, they continue to lose tons of money even after over a decade of massive investment.

 

[koyvoo]

Leipzig were semifinalists in the competition last season. It’s silly to suggest they aren’t good enough for the competition and only qualify because of the league they’re in.

 

[cgf]

Leipzig were semifinalists in the competition last season. It’s silly to suggest they aren’t good enough for the competition and only qualify because of the league they’re in.

Nah, I'm sure Arsenal are better. They were good when I was a kid afterall.

 

[Aladyyn]

The way Leipzig came into European relevancy is shady as f*** but let's not act like any teams from former East Germany could ever achieve that "naturally"

 

[cgf]

The way Leipzig came into European relevancy is shady as f*** but let's not act like any teams from former East Germany could ever achieve that "naturally"

Psh, watch us

 

[robertmac43]

Nah, I'm sure Arsenal are better. They were good when I was a kid afterall.

I'm sorry Arsenal fans sound like this nowadays...

 

[cgf]

I'm sorry Arsenal fans sound like this nowadays...

Don't be, it makes you more special for being so pleasant

 

[robertmac43]

Don't be, it makes you more special for being so pleasant

Hahaha I'll take that. The pleasantries will be gone though when Arsenal and Union meet in the CL finals 2023...

 

[cgf]

I don't mind spending - it is a question where the money comes from. Why shouldn't Manchester United spend the money they are earning? Or Bayern?

I do not see anything positive with teams like Red Bull Leipzig and Anzhi. But that is my view. Others think it is fun because it changes things up. And there is an argument to be made that we lost something in football in the 90s. If you look at which teams played in European finals etc. you had a much wider variety before compared to what we see now (or certainly would have seen without all the oil money). So I would agree with the "problem" - just not that companies like Red Bull and oil money being the solution.

Bayern & United do spend the money they earn...that's why their spending dwarfs Leipzig's...

You don't see anything positive from an exciting young team arising in a part of the country that had otherwise been left in the footballing wilderness of BuLi2 & below, but which now hosts a passionate fanbase in a traditional football city? Leipzig aren't Leverkusen, Wolfsburg or Hoppenheim; they actually have a local fanbase that has embraced that team & given them actual atmosphere at their home ground. Nor do they poach the rest of the league as much as Leverkusen, Bayern & Dortmund do.

Complaining about Leipzig has just become "old man yells at cloud" to me

 

[cgf]

Hahaha I'll take that. The pleasantries will be gone though when Arsenal and Union meet in the CL finals 2023...

True enough, though I'll try not to gloat too much when Kruse's hattrick wins it for us

 

[Havre]

Bayern & United do spend the money they earn...that's why their spending dwarfs Leipzig's...

You don't see anything positive from an exciting young team arising in a part of the country that had otherwise been left in the footballing wilderness of BuLi2 & below, but which now hosts a passionate fanbase in a traditional football city? Leipzig aren't anywhere near as bad as Leverkusen, Wolfsburg or Hoppenheim; they have a really big local fanbase that has embraced that team & given them actual atmosphere at their home ground. Nor do they poach the rest of the league as much as Leverkusen, Bayern & Dortmund do.

Complaining about Leipzig has just become "old man yells at cloud" to me

Yes. Thank Maradona Red Bull randomly chose Leipzig.

And if part of the argument is that they aren't as bad as others then I'm not going to be convinced.

Let's just hope Monster won't buy a couple of football clubs for marketing purposes.

 

[cgf]

Yes. Thank Maradona Red Bull randomly chose Leipzig.

And if part of the argument is that they aren't as bad as others then I'm not going to be convinced.

Let's just hope Monster won't buy a couple of football clubs for marketing purposes.

Why, is consistency not something that appeals to you? Cause Red Bull picking Leipzig -- not at random FWIW, but that's irrelevant to my point -- is a far less sketchy origin story than plenty of "historic clubs" that nobody complains about. So why wouldn't giving them the benefit you seem happy to give Real, be an effective argument for you?

Is it just because corporations are worse than literal fascists?

Do you want every club to be as upstanding as Union? Cause if that's the bar then no other 1st league club crosses it. If OTOH you accept that this is football and every club has some messiness to the way they've gotten to where they are, then you have to compare clubs to other clubs on their level.

 

[AB13]

Leipzig were semifinalists in the competition last season. It’s silly to suggest they aren’t good enough for the competition and only qualify because of the league they’re in.

They would qualify in any league but the Premier League. The Premier League top 4 are probably 4 of the 6 best teams on earth at this very moment.

 

[Havre]

Why, is consistency not something that appeals to you? Cause Red Bull picking Leipzig -- not at random FWIW, but that's irrelevant to my point -- is a far less sketchy origin story than plenty of "historic clubs" that nobody complains about. So why wouldn't giving them the benefit you seem happy to give Real, be an effective argument for you?

Is it just because corporations are worse than literal fascists?

Do you want every club to be as upstanding as Union? Cause if that's the bar then no other 1st league club crosses it. If OTOH you accept that this is football and every club has some messiness to the way they've gotten to where they are, then you have to compare clubs to other clubs on their level.

As I already have explained two wrongs doesn't make it right. Instead of pointing out inconsistencies that are not there I suggest you spend that time reading posts you are replying to instead.

I get it. Red Bull is emotional to you. Maybe I would have felt the same if some random Chinese Shipyard bought Spurs. Hopefully we will never find out - even though I'm not looking forward to find out who the next owners will be.

 

[AB13]

I'm sorry Arsenal fans sound like this nowadays...

Sorry Arsenal fans don’t like plastic clubs and financial doping? Never said Arsenal should play in the Champions League 2020/21. Never said Arsenal are currently better than Leipzig. Just said it does not feel right seeing clubs like Leipzig do better than Schalke, AC Milan playing in the Europa League and clubs like Manchester City do better than Arsenal. These things make me feel sick.

 

[koyvoo]

They would qualify in any league but the Premier League. The Premier League top 4 are probably 4 of the 6 best teams on earth at this very moment.

If this were definitive and absolute, English teams would’ve done better than them in the competition. At least one of them.

 

[cgf]

They would qualify in any league but the Premier League. The Premier League top 4 are probably 4 of the 6 best teams on earth at this very moment.

Correction. This is the funniest thing you've said yet.