UEFA Champions League Qualifying Rounds 2020-21

[koyvoo]

It’ll never truly be the CL until the mighty Nottingham Forest make their triumphant return.

 

[AB13]

In 1960s team X was good. What’s Norwhich up to? Speaking of classic teams playing CL. Arsenal have won ZERO in europe. This guy wasn’t even born won these teams were good

Yeah well Arsenal and United have played more UCL football than any other English clubs and should be there. Norwich don't have much history. The classic clubs are the clubs that have 50+ years of sustained success as a top team in their country. So in England, that would be Arsenal, Manchester United, Liverpool, Tottenham and Everton, primarily, although Leeds and Villa deserve a mention.

 

[Blender]

I just want the classic clubs to get more points in their leagues. I obviously want the teams that perform the best in the league to qualify, as it is now. I just want to see the classic teams I mentioned feature in the UCL by being more successful domestically, because this does not feel like the Champions League.

"Classic clubs", "feel like the CL", etc. is all arbitrary and meaningless. Why do you value success from an arbitrary point in time that you decide over success from other times?

Why don't you consider Everton and Aston Villa "classic" clubs. Everton has the same number of pre-EPL championships as Arsenal does, and Aston Villa only has 2 fewer.

Seems like you are entirely basing this on your personal nostalgia from a specific time period.

 

[Blender]

Also of note is that the arbitrary merit system apparently isn't based upon actual success in the competition since you're throwing out a winner (who also has a runner up and several semi appearances) for a team that's got a single runner up to its name.

Aston Villa has won more CL titles than Arsenal has. Nottingham Forest has won 2.

 

[cgf]

Yeah, but I don't want Leipzig to be an excellent team who are fun to watch, because they have no history, soul, fanbase, culture or nostalgia. Seeing Schalke in the UCL would be better. I am not talking at all about the quality of the players in the teams right now, I just want the classic clubs to have the best players and best teams, and therefore play in the Champions League.

You are talking about something you know little about. Leipzig may not have any history but they have a large & very passionate fanbase. And have done a really impressive job of building a club culture as quickly as they have.

And Schalke has no nostalgia because nostalgia requires living memory and there isn't a person alive who saw them play when they were last champions.

At this point why not lament the absence of Koln & Hamburg?

 

[koyvoo]

Yeah well Arsenal and United have played more UCL football than any other English clubs and should be there. Norwich don't have much history. The classic clubs are the clubs that have 50+ years of sustained success as a top team in their country. So in England, that would be Arsenal, Manchester United, Liverpool, Tottenham and Everton, primarily, although Leeds and Villa deserve a mention.

Don’t even try it.

Forrest have won the most coveted, prestigious and relevant trophy in the club game. Twice.

As a measure of historical relevance, I’d bet Forrest is mentioned in pop culture references in films etc more than all but two of those other English clubs you named.

 

[AB13]

Also of note is that the arbitrary merit system apparently isn't based upon actual success in the competition since you're throwing out a winner (who also has a runner up and several semi appearances) for a team that's got a single runner up to its name.

The criteria will obviously be based on their overall success as a club in various competitions, and for how long they have been a good team. Arsenal have 60 top 6 finishes, Chelsea have 35. Arsenal have more than twice the amount of league titles and have played much more in the European Cup / Champions League. Also, you are indirectly throwing City out for Arsenal and Chelsea for Spurs. I guess you could argue Arsenal and Chelsea are the deserving teams then.

Also, why conveniently say Chelsea have several semi final appearances when Arsenal do too?

 

[AB13]

Don’t even try it.

Forrest have won the most coveted, prestigious and relevant trophy in the club game. Twice.

As a measure of historical relevance, I’d bet Forrest is mentioned in pop culture references in films etc more than all but two of those other English clubs you named.

Winning a league title is just as impressive as a UCL. Arsenal, Liverpool, United, Sunderland, Everton, Aston Villa and many more are obviously more famous because of their league triumphs.

 

[AB13]

"Classic clubs", "feel like the CL", etc. is all arbitrary and meaningless. Why do you value success from an arbitrary point in time that you decide over success from other times?

Why don't you consider Everton and Aston Villa "classic" clubs. Everton has the same number of pre-EPL championships as Arsenal does, and Aston Villa only has 2 fewer.

Seems like you are entirely basing this on your personal nostalgia from a specific time period.

Everton have 1 fewer, Villa have 3 fewer, but that is irrelevant. They are both classic clubs, extremely classic, and I have said that. And yes, of course this is all my personal nostalgia. I thought that was clear.

 

[Blender]

The criteria will obviously be based on their overall success as a club in various competitions, and for how long they have been a good team. Arsenal have 60 top 6 finishes, Chelsea have 35. Arsenal have more than twice the amount of league titles and have played much more in the European Cup / Champions League. Also, you are indirectly throwing City out for Arsenal and Chelsea for Spurs. I guess you could argue Arsenal and Chelsea are the deserving teams then.

Also, why conveniently say Chelsea have several semi final appearances when Arsenal do too?

Arsenal has 1 CL final appearance and 1 semi-final appearance. Chelsea has 1 CL win, 1 final appearance, and 5 semi-final appearances. Who has more historic achievement in Europe?

 

[koyvoo]

Winning a league title is just as impressive as a UCL. Arsenal, Liverpool, United, Sunderland, Everton, Aston Villa and many more are obviously more famous because of their league triumphs.

It may be more difficult, and even indicative of great team to win a league compared to the CL, but in no way is it close to as glorious, prestigious or historically relevant as winning the CL.

 

[AB13]

Arsenal has 1 CL final appearance and 1 semi-final appearance. Chelsea has 1 CL win, 1 final appearance, and 5 semi-final appearances. Who has more historic achievement in Europe?

Arsenal have 2 semi appearances since the name change, and still have a more historic european legacy, because of how consistently they always have been a knockout stage UCL team, unlike Chelsea, who did not make Europe regularly until the 2000s. But European legacy does not really matter in this case, because Arsenal have 13-6 in league titles, 14-8 in domestic clubs and all around much more history, trophies and legendary players, which is something Chelsea can´t compensate for with slightly more UCL success in the 2010s.

 

[Blender]

Arsenal have 2 semi appearances since the name change, and still have a more historic european legacy, because of how consistently they always have been a knockout stage UCL team, unlike Chelsea, who did not make Europe regularly until the 2000s. But European legacy does not really matter in this case, because Arsenal have 13-6 in league titles, 14-8 in domestic clubs and all around much more history, trophies and legendary players, which is something Chelsea can´t compensate for with slightly more UCL success in the 2010s.

I'm pretty sure 2008-2009 was Arsenal's only semi-final appearance besides their final appearance in 2005-2006.

Historic success has no more value than recent success. Why should anyone care about your nostalgia as a measure of CL quality?

 

[AB13]

You are talking about something you know little about. Leipzig may not have any history but they have a large & very passionate fanbase. And have done a really impressive job of building a club culture as quickly as they have.

And Schalke has no nostalgia because nostalgia requires living memory and there isn't a person alive who saw them play when they were last champions.

At this point why not lament the absence of Koln & Hamburg?

So you can't be nostalgic about great players and seasons that don't result in titles. Schalke have been a top team for long, they sure do have nostalgia. You don't think their fans get nostalgic about Raul, Huntelaar, Neuer, Lehmann, Höwedes?

 

[Blender]

So you can't be nostalgic about great players and seasons that don't result in titles. Schalke have been a top team for long, they sure do have nostalgia. You don't think their fans get nostalgic about Raul, Huntelaar, Neuer, Lehmann, Höwedes?

You're not even being consistent here. Which is it, is "history, trophies and legendary players" the most important aspect of your nostalgia, or do you just change the criteria to fit whichever clubs you think belong?

 

[AB13]

I'm pretty sure 2008-2009 was Arsenal's only semi-final appearance besides their final appearance in 2005-2006.

Historic success has no more value than recent success. Why should anyone care about your nostalgia as a measure of CL quality?

My list is mostly based on overall success of the clubs. Success can be defined in different ways, some only think trophies are a relevant way of measuring success, but I think the consistency of a club and the amount of years teams has spent as a top side are very important too.

This is not fully based on my nostalgia, only a very little bit, I was exaggerating. But I would be lying if I said it did not matter at all. I never said people should care either. I just said that I prefer the most historic clubs in the UCL. I hate that lubs like Leipzig, City and Chelsea that suddenly becoming relevant overnight through financial doping are "stealing" spots of off respectable clubs.

 

[Blender]

My list is mostly based on overall success of the clubs. Success can be defined in different ways, some only think trophies are a relevant way of measuring success, but I think the consistency of a club and the amount of years teams has spent as a top side are very important too.

This is not fully based on my nostalgia, only a very little bit, I was exaggerating. But I would be lying if I said it did not matter at all. I never said people should care either. I just said that I prefer the most historic clubs in the UCL. I hate that lubs like Leipzig, City and Chelsea that suddenly becoming relevant overnight through financial doping are "stealing" spots of off respectable clubs.

No this is definitely based on your personal nostalgia since you have failed to outline any kind of consistent criteria that is applicable to all of your arbitrary team choices. No one has "stolen" any spots, a club like Arsenal has been left behind because of terrible management, not because they can't compete financially.

 

[AB13]

No this is definitely based on your personal nostalgia since you have failed to outline any kind of consistent criteria that is applicable to all of your arbitrary team choices. No one has "stolen" any spots, a club like Arsenal has been left behind because of terrible management, not because they can't compete financially.

What you are saying is about 50% true, but I don't think you understand my point. I want the biggest clubs with the most overall success to be the ones not left behind. Leipzig, City and Chelsea are only in the UCL because of financial doping and there is no argument against that.

You also don't understand that these aren't arbitrary team choices. Just the teams to feature in my preferred "ideal UCL" based on their historic success, because I respect historic clubs a little extra as a football fan. These should not be spots set in stone that don't vary. This is just what I would want.

 

[koyvoo]

Still, I accept the notion that Arsenal have a stature that is/should be a CL club.

Bit of they’re not good enough to properly secure a spot, they should just be placed there? Even though over these past few years the results show they aren’t good enough?

This would go for Madrid or Barcelona or whoever as well. If Barcelona finishes in 5th in Spain this year, they should go ahead of team that outperformed them?

 

[AB13]

Still, I accept the notion that Arsenal have a stature that is/should be a CL club.

Bit of they’re not good enough to properly secure a spot, they should just be placed there? Even though over these past few years the results show they aren’t good enough?

This would go for Madrid or Barcelona or whoever as well. If Barcelona finishes in 5th in Spain this year, they should go ahead of team that outperformed them?

They should not just be placed there, no club should. I never said such a thing. This entire discussion is based on two people misunderstanding what I am saying, maybe I formulated myself strangely. You are misunderstanding, when I say a team ” should ” be in the CL I mean they have such a stature that I would want to see them be good enough to play there. Arsenal ”should” simply play better in the league than the smaller clubs, in the same way all historic clubs should outperform much smaller clubs in their nations, if I could choose.

 

[cgf]

What you are saying is about 50% true, but I don't think you understand my point. I want the biggest clubs with the most overall success to be the ones not left behind. Leipzig, City and Chelsea are only in the UCL because of financial doping and there is no argument against that.

You also don't understand that these aren't arbitrary team choices. Just the teams to feature in my preferred "ideal UCL" based on their historic success, because I respect historic clubs a little extra as a football fan. These should not be spots set in stone that don't vary. This is just what I would want.

Leipzig are in the CL because of their excellent transfer work & brilliant coach, not just their money. Plenty of english teams have greater resources than Leipzig and do a lot less with those resources. Like Arsenal, they are richer than Leipzig but because their management has sucked for a decade, they are nowhere near as good as Leipzig and the CL would be a poorer competition if they replaced Leipzig.

 

[Blender]

Leipzig are in the CL because of their excellent transfer work & brilliant coach, not just their money. Plenty of english teams have greater resources than Leipzig and do a lot less with those resources. Like Arsenal, they are richer than Leipzig but because their management has sucked for a decade, they are nowhere near as good as Leipzig and the CL would be a poorer competition if they replaced Leipzig.

I posted last year I think it was that Leipzig's spending wasn't really out of line with other big German clubs, they were just new and had a corporate backer, and was less than many English clubs from top of the table to mid table. Leipzig has just been really well run, and probably one of their smartest decisions is having a smaller stature feeder club in Austria as well. I don't know why more big clubs don't go out and buy themselves a feeder club in another league that they can use for development.

 

[cgf]

I posted last year I think it was that Leipzig's spending wasn't really out of line with other big German clubs, they were just new and had a corporate backer, and was less than many English clubs from top of the table to mid table. Leipzig has just been really well run, and probably one of their smartest decisions is having a smaller stature feeder club in Austria as well. I don't know why more big clubs don't go out and buy themselves a feeder club in another league that they can use for development.

Yeah, I wanted to hate them...union fans led the protests against them and we enjoyed delaying their 1st division arrival by a year. But between how well they've been run & the way the locals have taken to that club, I've softened on them to the point where the arrival of Nagelsmann made me a genuine fan of theirs.

At least when they're not playing Union or the cooler Borussia

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I won’t rest until classic teams like river and boca make it tbh.

 

[Power Man]

Barca looked much better today tbh

i dont know why