Player Discussion Tyson Barrie

[The Nuge]

Who cares about primary points on a pp? That’s the weirdest criticism I’ve heard. A pp unit is unit. If a guy shoots from the point it bounces off a guys bum to another guys stick and in why is the guy who’s bum it hit more important to the play.

Yep. There are countless examples of the secondary assist being the most important part of a goal, yet this argument never seems to die

 

[The Nuge]

Islanders: Projecting Noah Dobson's next contract

The New York Islanders have a budding superstar in defenseman Noah Dobson. He's also in need of a contract, so, what might that look like?

eyesonisles.com

This is a little eye opening...7mil aav is what this guy is thinking to lock in Dobson long term. I'm not sure if there is a better comparable out there for Bouch but once this guy signs I think the clock is ticking on Bouch. It might be advisable to lock him into something similar while they still can.

Yep. Bouch is a top 4 dman with some serious offensive upside. We need to lock him into an 8 year deal as soon as possible

 

[MessierII]

Gives an idea on who the actual contributors are on a PP. If multiple guys all have very similar stats (maybe one gets a little 20% boost of secondary points one year, then regresses the next), and the PP scores at the same rate with all of them, then you have to question if that player is replaceable or not on the PP. IMO the stats very clearly show Barrie is not that integral to the success of the PP. We'll be keeping a guy for 4.5M to be average (could be worse, don't want to to lay too thick how lots of analytics say he is a drag on possession 5v5) on a 3rd pair and to do what multiple other guys could accomplish on the PP, if he doesn't lose the spot. If he loses the spot, then it's 4.5M for a 3rd pair guy and we have a hard time trying to get his cap space freed up to resign other guys next summer.

You know who lead our team in secondary pp assists by a landslide? Connor Mcdavid.

 

[oobga]

Islanders: Projecting Noah Dobson's next contract

The New York Islanders have a budding superstar in defenseman Noah Dobson. He's also in need of a contract, so, what might that look like?

eyesonisles.com

This is a little eye opening...7mil aav is what this guy is thinking to lock in Dobson long term. I'm not sure if there is a better comparable out there for Bouch but once this guy signs I think the clock is ticking on Bouch. It might be advisable to lock him into something similar while they still can.

Definitely would be signing Bouch now. Dobson had 1 good year really. Bouch outproduced him at ES. If Bouch can put together 2 seasons of 30+ ES points, he can argue he should be getting even more than Dobson.

Guys ahead of Bouch in EV points/60 the last 2 seasons: Josi, Makar, Toews, Carlson, Ekblad, Hedman, DeAngelo, Letang, Forsling, Rielly, Faulk, Fox.

 

[oobga]

You know who lead our team in secondary pp assists by a landslide? Connor Mcdavid.

Do you question if McDavid is the guy driving play? I hope not, he usually leads the NHL in primary ones too.

Barrie's 2nd assists rate was 1.35/60 2 seasons ago. His average over his career is around 0.65. Last season he was at 0.74.

The trick with trying to analyze a players impact and if a year was an outlier is to actually take a look and compare. We keeping Barrie around just so he can have a 2nd assist heater again? Even though even if he did it would have almost no impact on the team winning games? Maybe actually hurts because we decided to piss off Bouch's camp by not letting him develop his offensive game further on the PP (which we badly need to ever win a cup) because we think we can weaken his bargaining position? Seems unwise.

 

[yukoner88]

Do you question if McDavid is the guy driving play? I hope not, he usually leads the NHL in primary ones too.

Barrie's 2nd assists rate was 1.35/60 2 seasons ago. His average over his career is around 0.65. Last season he was at 0.74.

The trick with trying to analyze a players impact and if a year was an outlier is to actually take a look and compare. We keeping Barrie around just so he can have a 2nd assist heater again? Even though even if he did it would have almost no impact on the team winning games? Maybe actually hurts because we decided to piss off Bouch's camp by not letting him develop his offensive game further on the PP (which we badly need to ever win a cup) because we think we can weaken his bargaining position? Seems unwise.

The goal posts in your argument are moving so much, everyone better keep their heads up crossing the street.

And how can the Bouch camp be pissed off about development when the team traded Bear, opening the opportunity for Bouchard to solidify a roster spot?

 

[MessierII]

Do you question if McDavid is the guy driving play? I hope not, he usually leads the NHL in primary ones too.

Barrie's 2nd assists rate was 1.35/60 2 seasons ago. His average over his career is around 0.65. Last season he was at 0.74.

The trick with trying to analyze a players impact and if a year was an outlier is to actually take a look and compare. We keeping Barrie around just so he can have a 2nd assist heater again? Even though even if he did it would have almost no impact on the team winning games? Maybe actually hurts because we decided to piss off Bouch's camp by not letting him develop his offensive game further on the PP (which we badly need to ever win a cup) because we think we can weaken his bargaining position? Seems unwise.

Well if he led D in points every year his aav wouldn’t start with a 4.

 

[oobga]

The goal posts in your argument are moving so much, everyone better keep their heads up crossing the street.

And how can the Bouch camp be pissed off about development when the team traded Bear, opening the opportunity for Bouchard to solidify a roster spot?

Imagine Bouch puts up 30+ ES points again and the Oilers go to the negotiating table saying Bouch needs to take less because of his lack of PP production after a year of intentionally keeping him off the PP? Wouldn't even make sense anyways I guess. The ES production will be more than enough for Bouch to go off to get paid. But, if we think we can lowball him because of the lack of PP time, should be ready for a bridge deal which could go really bad for us in the next negotiation.

Maybe pissed is the wrong word. Let's just say, they will not be stupid and it will be obvious to them if the Oilers are trying to keep him away from the PP to strengthen their own bargaining position. Regardless, if you are a strong ES point producer as a D, you get paid, like our boy Nurse. We should get on that extension ASAP with Bouch. Getting some time on the PP with arguably the 2 best players in the league likely won't change the math that much. That's up to the Oilers to figure out if developing Bouch's offensive confidence ASAP is more important to the teams success than trying to lamely help their bargaining position.

Sorry if it seems I'm changing my stances on things. I don't feel I am.

 

[oobga]

Well if he led D in points every year his aav wouldn’t start with a 4.

I think his deal was fair after that canada conference year. Personally wish we didn't sign it and we put some more effort to know what we had in Bouch the year before.

I'd also love to keep Barrie if there was no cap, but since Foegele can't be moved without paying, Barrie seems like the obvious choice. Especially because I think his contribution can be replaced by what we have and a cheaper 3rd pair guy. If Subban is looking for a 1M deal to prove himself (fully realize lots of ppl here would hate that, but it's just an example), I probably do that swap in a second. Extra cap space lets you get McLeod signed, and maybe even more in the summer or at the next deadline.

I guess I should make it clear the position I'm trying to argue from. The necessity of freeing up some cap space to improve the team. Trying to identify who is replaceable (for little or no cost), and could be moved without having to give up more assets. Think we're just down to 1 guy. Maybe some would love seeing Pulju moved, but I don't think that's a good idea. I think I'm making it clear i do think Barrie has value at 4.5M, which is why I say this is the summer to try to move him. If he gets dropped down the lineup and loses that 1st PP spot, I think it's hard to move him next year which we may have no choice but to do. Imagine he ends up with a ~15-20 point season because he was stuck on the 3rd pair and lost the PP spot. That's a hard 4.5M player to move. The league already showed him how much respect he gets giving him barely any votes after he lead D in points 2 seasons ago. Take the points away, coupled with some mediocre possession stats. Hard sell.

 

[bobbythebrain]

The goal posts in your argument are moving so much, everyone better keep their heads up crossing the street.

And how can the Bouch camp be pissed off about development when the team traded Bear, opening the opportunity for Bouchard to solidify a roster spot?

Pretty sure Bear was never blocking Bouchard, just delayed him abit. Bouch was coming on the team no matter what and would have always leapfrogged Bear. Bouch got regular dman treatment that alot go thru

 

[Drivesaitl]

Need some good arguments to have a hope, sorry man Kinda blew up the ES point thing for you pointing out Bouch's totals and Barrie's tailing off. Pointed out multiple guys the PP scored at a higher rate with than Barrie.

I think lots of people are just holding onto an old reputation, maybe like the guy for signing a "discount". I've looked at the results too much to join you all now. Happy to be "that guy" in this thread for everyone. Usually you get to be, so only fair other people get it once in a while. Do try to pick my spots of course.

Has it occurred to you how much Bouch and our D may benefit from an NHL vet elite production D that has been putting up filthy pts for a decade, as a D. You really discount the type of production Barrie has had here. You didn't blow up any pt. You blew your own when you said several posts ago that Barrie only gets pts off McD that anybody else would get. This is the difficulty with debate. If your initial premise is off, and shown to be faulty, then what you say after in the same convo is still undermined. You did that to yourself. No worries, we've all fallen in the quicksand on diff topics. What I've learned though it if 10 posters on a board are all telling me I'm wrong. Theres a good chance I'm wrong.

cheers

 

[Drivesaitl]

Imagine Bouch puts up 30+ ES points again and the Oilers go to the negotiating table saying Bouch needs to take less because of his lack of PP production after a year of intentionally keeping him off the PP? Wouldn't even make sense anyways I guess. The ES production will be more than enough for Bouch to go off to get paid. But, if we think we can lowball him because of the lack of PP time, should be ready for a bridge deal which could go really bad for us in the next negotiation.

Maybe pissed is the wrong word. Let's just say, they will not be stupid and it will be obvious to them if the Oilers are trying to keep him away from the PP to strengthen their own bargaining position. Regardless, if you are a strong ES point producer as a D, you get paid, like our boy Nurse. We should get on that extension ASAP with Bouch. Getting some time on the PP with arguably the 2 best players in the league likely won't change the math that much. That's up to the Oilers to figure out if developing Bouch's offensive confidence ASAP is more important to the teams success than trying to lamely help their bargaining position.

Sorry if it seems I'm changing my stances on things. I don't feel I am.

In his time here Barrie has 44PP pts vs Bouchard having 8PP pts. Thats in two seasons combined. Sure Barrie gets over 3X the amount of PP minutes in that span but has 5.5X as many pts on PP in that span. Your apparent answer to that is that the Oilers are plain silly to keep Bouch off the PP and its really bad in some way that Barrie has made solid contributions to one of the better PP's in the league. I can't even spot where the goalposts are now. How is Barrie being on the Oilers PP a bad thing. I don't think anybody is following your point on that.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I think his deal was fair after that canada conference year. Personally wish we didn't sign it and we put some more effort to know what we had in Bouch the year before.

I'd also love to keep Barrie if there was no cap, but since Foegele can't be moved without paying, Barrie seems like the obvious choice. Especially because I think his contribution can be replaced by what we have and a cheaper 3rd pair guy. If Subban is looking for a 1M deal to prove himself (fully realize lots of ppl here would hate that, but it's just an example), I probably do that swap in a second. Extra cap space lets you get McLeod signed, and maybe even more in the summer or at the next deadline.

I guess I should make it clear the position I'm trying to argue from. The necessity of freeing up some cap space to improve the team. Trying to identify who is replaceable (for little or no cost), and could be moved without having to give up more assets. Think we're just down to 1 guy. Maybe some would love seeing Pulju moved, but I don't think that's a good idea. I think I'm making it clear i do think Barrie has value at 4.5M, which is why I say this is the summer to try to move him. If he gets dropped down the lineup and loses that 1st PP spot, I think it's hard to move him next year which we may have no choice but to do. Imagine he ends up with a ~15-20 point season because he was stuck on the 3rd pair and lost the PP spot. That's a hard 4.5M player to move. The league already showed him how much respect he gets giving him barely any votes after he lead D in points 2 seasons ago. Take the points away, coupled with some mediocre possession stats. Hard sell.

Citing Norris voting that is heavily biased to EC players and big market teams and players is the worst argument you've made yet. I've done research and have outlined in the past what a disproportionate amount of voters for these awards come from EC and big market beats, and don't come from say Edmonton beats. In at least one of these looks only 1 or 2 Edmonton beat reporters even voted. In one analysis I did certain teams had about a dozen times more accredited press voters than the Oilers had. I mean Drai was left off the ballot by several voters in a year in which he won league MVP. The PHWA allocation is whacked. The voting is whacked. In present day if Chris Pronger in prime was an Oiler again I wonder if he'd even win the Norris. Much of the media are making team specific partisan votes.

Chris Pronger was arguably the best player in the league in the 2005-06 season and continued on in that in the playoffs. Taking his team all the way to game 7 of the Stanley Cup and without terrible luck should have been a SC win. He wasn't even a Norris finalist, because he was playing in Edmonton. Period.

NHL ANNOUNCES 2005-06 TROPHY FINALISTS

The latest news, analysis and stories from NHL.com, the official site of the National Hockey League

www.nhl.com

Chris Freaking Pronger had 7% of the norris voting that season in the most dominant performance by A D I'd seen since the days of Paul Coffey. Pronger was also the best rush stopper in the league at the time. I can see Lidstrom getting a ton of votes but nobody else on the list was better than Pronger that season. Interestingly Pronger steamrolled the clubs of all the D ahead of him that he faced in the playoffs, while being the best player in the playoffs.

2005-06 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[LTIR]

In his time here Barrie has 44PP pts vs Bouchard having 8PP pts. Thats in two seasons combined. Sure Barrie gets over 3X the amount of PP minutes in that span but has 5.5X as many pts on PP in that span. Your apparent answer to that is that the Oilers are plain silly to keep Bouch off the PP and its really bad in some way that Barrie has made solid contributions to one of the better PP's in the league. I can't even spot where the goalposts are now. How is Barrie being on the Oilers PP a bad thing. I don't think anybody is following your point on that.

I am sure a lot of fans followed his point. Barrie was just not a scoring threat on the PP. 3 goals all season and none in playoffs. Bouchard scored 2 plus another in playoffs despite getting limited time. Koekkoek or Kulak could have gotten that time and equaled production. Adding a point shot option that could do damage would make defending against Kane/McDrai Nuge even harder on PP.

Having said that Barrie is fine to keep if we can offload Foegele. There really aren't many better RDs available to replace him

 

[The Nuge]

Imagine Bouch puts up 30+ ES points again and the Oilers go to the negotiating table saying Bouch needs to take less because of his lack of PP production after a year of intentionally keeping him off the PP? Wouldn't even make sense anyways I guess. The ES production will be more than enough for Bouch to go off to get paid. But, if we think we can lowball him because of the lack of PP time, should be ready for a bridge deal which could go really bad for us in the next negotiation.

Maybe pissed is the wrong word. Let's just say, they will not be stupid and it will be obvious to them if the Oilers are trying to keep him away from the PP to strengthen their own bargaining position. Regardless, if you are a strong ES point producer as a D, you get paid, like our boy Nurse. We should get on that extension ASAP with Bouch. Getting some time on the PP with arguably the 2 best players in the league likely won't change the math that much. That's up to the Oilers to figure out if developing Bouch's offensive confidence ASAP is more important to the teams success than trying to lamely help their bargaining position.

Sorry if it seems I'm changing my stances on things. I don't feel I am.

It’s not intentionally keeping someone off the powerplay when you choose to use a guy who lead all dmen in scoring recently, and your #1 dman. This isn’t the DOD where anyone that didn’t handle the puck like a grenade got thrown out on the blue line. There’s a case to be made for all 6 of our projected dmen deserving PP time

 

[Bryanbryoil]

It’s not intentionally keeping someone off the powerplay when you choose to use a guy who lead all dmen in scoring recently, and your #1 dman. This isn’t the DOD where anyone that didn’t handle the puck like a grenade got thrown out on the blue line. There’s a case to be made for all 6 of our projected dmen deserving PP time

Kulak and Ceci? My order of PP point man would be in order: Bouchard, Barrie, Nurse, Broberg, Ceci, Kulak

I hope that Broberg gets some PP2 opportunities but that will be difficult with both Bouchard and Barrie on the team.

 

[The Nuge]

Kulak and Ceci? My order of PP point man would be in order: Bouchard, Barrie, Nurse, Broberg, Ceci, Kulak

I hope that Broberg gets some PP2 opportunities but that will be difficult with both Bouchard and Barrie on the team.

Kulak came in and put up pretty solid offensive numbers while looking good with the puck. If this was 5 years ago, he’d 100% be getting PP time.

Ceci used to be an offensive dman and just had a career year, where he put up as many or more EV points than guys like Fowler, Heiskanen, Hamilton, Chabot, Karlsson, Krug, Morrissey, etc.

My point was just that we have 6 guys right now who can handle the puck and someone not being on the PP shouldn’t be viewed as a slight. Broberg needs to be sheltered a bit so it makes sense to put Barrie out on the PP for some extra minutes. That way you free up Nurse/Ceci/Kulak/Bouch for more time at even strength and PK.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Kulak came in and put up pretty solid offensive numbers while looking good with the puck. If this was 5 years ago, he’d 100% be getting PP time.

Ceci used to be an offensive dman and just had a career year, where he put up as many or more EV points than guys like Fowler, Heiskanen, Hamilton, Chabot, Karlsson, Krug, Morrissey, etc.

My point was just that we have 6 guys right now who can handle the puck and someone not being on the PP shouldn’t be viewed as a slight. Broberg needs to be sheltered a bit so it makes sense to put Barrie out on the PP for some extra minutes. That way you free up Nurse/Ceci/Kulak/Bouch for more time at even strength and PK.

Agree to disagree. The cream of the crop for the PP is Bouch, Barrie, Nurse and maybe Broberg. Kulak and Ceci are not plugs without skill, but neither are reasonable choices for the PP unless there are a ton of injuries that hit the team because they don't have the same puck skills, shot or offensive hockey IQ that those other guys do.

 

[SwedishFire]

What to do about Yamamoto and Puljujärvi both fighting for the same spot; not a driver - a third player on a 2nd line or a 3rd line.

I would put yamamoto on the 2nd line, and Puljujärvi with Nuge at 3rd line.
Kane McDavid Hyman??
MacLeod?? Draisait Yama
Järnmark Nuge Puljujärvi
Holloway Shore Malone (AHL line..)
Benson

Fogele, Ryan waived for cap reasons.

Yeah, a bit of cap trouble here.
I could see Fogele claimed but most certainly being traded whilst waive,for a low round puck like a 4th or 5th rounder.

Problem is oilers got 5 tlp players; the big3, Kane, Hyman. Then you fill the top 9 gaps with Puljujärvi, Yamamoto, Järnmark, Fogele. Ita hard

 

[Blue Line Turnover]

I think Barrie is still a very valuable RD; he has looked really good with Kulak, so that gives the Oilers the option of allowing Nurse to play with Bouchard and Ceci to play with Broberg.

That's how I would picture the defense corps being configured, but I have a feeling that I'll be wrong (Samurokov could easily make the jump over Broberg based on camp/pre-season, or they'll stick with Nurse-Ceci, etc.).

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Agree to disagree. The cream of the crop for the PP is Bouch, Barrie, Nurse and maybe Broberg. Kulak and Ceci are not plugs without skill, but neither are reasonable choices for the PP unless there are a ton of injuries that hit the team because they don't have the same puck skills, shot or offensive hockey IQ that those other guys do.

Broberg is miles better than Nurse at the same age offensively.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Broberg is miles better than Nurse at the same age offensively.

Maybe so, but how do you think Nurse would feel if he was the #4 PP option with the #3 option being a rookie?

 

[Fourier]

Maybe so, but how do you think Nurse would feel if he was the #4 PP option with the #3 option being a rookie?

I would hope he would not mind. He has his $9.5M contract in the bag already. What they need most from him is top end play at ES and on the pk. For Nurse, pp time is a nice perk but it also means more minutes. It also takes your best defenseman off the ice in the shift after the pp ends which seems to be a time teams are vulnerable. Maybe having him on with the second unit at the end of the pp is the way to go.

In any case, I don't see Broberg getting much pp time unless their are lots of injuries.

 

[Barrsy]

Broberg is miles better than Nurse at the same age offensively.

Not sure this is true.

 

[AM]

Imagine Bouch puts up 30+ ES points again and the Oilers go to the negotiating table saying Bouch needs to take less because of his lack of PP production after a year of intentionally keeping him off the PP? Wouldn't even make sense anyways I guess. The ES production will be more than enough for Bouch to go off to get paid. But, if we think we can lowball him because of the lack of PP time, should be ready for a bridge deal which could go really bad for us in the next negotiation.

Maybe pissed is the wrong word. Let's just say, they will not be stupid and it will be obvious to them if the Oilers are trying to keep him away from the PP to strengthen their own bargaining position. Regardless, if you are a strong ES point producer as a D, you get paid, like our boy Nurse. We should get on that extension ASAP with Bouch. Getting some time on the PP with arguably the 2 best players in the league likely won't change the math that much. That's up to the Oilers to figure out if developing Bouch's offensive confidence ASAP is more important to the teams success than trying to lamely help their bargaining position.

Sorry if it seems I'm changing my stances on things. I don't feel I am.

You have to earn the opportunity to play on the pp.