Value of: Tyson Barrie to Edmonton

[The Abusement Park]

His plus 12 is more so because of his ridiculously high PDO of 110. He isn't a good defensive player whatsoever

PDO is a team stat not an individual stat...

 

[rent free]

PDO is a team stat not an individual stat...

you are thinking of team pdo. i was referring to his individual pdo (his on ice shooting percentage (i.e. the teams shooting % when he's on the ice) + his on ice save percentage (i.e. the goalie's sv% when he's on the ice).

 

[MisterT]

You think that the 9th highest scoring blueliner since the start of the 2013-2014 season has value? Really?!?

You think a one-dimensional dman incapable of playing defense is the main piece to land Draisaitl? Really?!?

 

[Avs44]

You think a one-dimensional dman incapable of playing defense is the main piece to land Draisaitl? Really?!?

Nothing in the above sentence describes Tyson Barrie. Sounds like nothing more than the general buzzwords of the Barrie detractors who watch between 2-4 games per year, can't speak to Barrie's abilities personally whatsoever, and use a handful of badly misinterpreted stats to back up their point.

And for the record, I don't expect Barrie would ever land Draisaitl.

 

[cgf]

You think a one-dimensional dman incapable of playing defense is the main piece to land Draisaitl? Really?!?

Of course not. But I was talking about Tyson Barrie, not the hypothetical blueliner you’re talking about. ;-)

 

[gwh]

You think a one-dimensional dman incapable of playing defense is the main piece to land Draisaitl? Really?!?

Barrie is offensive Dman with smallish stature. Good at opening the game and primary the guy who brings the puck to mid ice from own end.

 

[Lacaar]

It would fit Edmonton's mo of trading for a spot they need right now but won't in the near distant future.

Trade a center for a right shot d-man. Have either Ethan Bear or Evan Bouchard make impacts on the team next year. or even better because it's the Oilers.. both.
Then sit next year going holy shit.. we have 5 right shot d-men and no center depth!

So I accept because Oiler gotta Oil.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

How much is Edmonton willing to pay for an "exceptional passer"? He put on a good show for the Edmonton front office on Sunday.

Barrie + for Draisaitl?
RNH+ for Barrie?

How much is Oilers willing to pay for a guy who going to UFA in less than two years. Wanna give up Draisaitl long term for that?
Now I can see RNH, though the Oilers are lacking in forwards too.

 

[ghostingtaro]

Drai+ for Barrie

i mean judging how much the oilers gave away a former 80 pt forward for

 

[Cancuks]

Oilers should target Jared Spurgeon.

 

[MisterT]

Nothing in the above sentence describes Tyson Barrie. Sounds like nothing more than the general buzzwords of the Barrie detractors who watch between 2-4 games per year, can't speak to Barrie's abilities personally whatsoever, and use a handful of badly misinterpreted stats to back up their point.

And for the record, I don't expect Barrie would ever land Draisaitl.

-44 career and 60% offensive starts are facts, not buzzwords. He has a role and would fit many teams but not close for what the OP suggests.

 

[Avs44]

-44 career and 60% offensive starts are facts, not buzzwords. He has a role and would fit many teams but not close for what the OP suggests.

You'll probably be pleased to know you are currently on track with all of the other boring Barrie detractors!

It's nearly always the exact same handful of arguments. +/- is a nearly useless statistic. You can read here, for example, about its problems and the many who disagree with it. It's an excellent article on the history of +/-, and the long history of criticisms of it. For example:

Players:

And it’s not just fans and writers who are dismissive of it. Plenty of players have gone on record over the years to voice their disdain for it. When asked about it this past March, Boston Bruins defenceman Torey Krug said that he personally hates it and finds it to be misleading.

Poile and Lamoriello:

The minutes from a Competition Committee meeting in June 2009 reveal that plus-minus was a topic of conversation. After Tampa Bay Lightning player Jeff Halpern criticized the stat as arbitrary, Nashville Predators GM David Poile agreed and added that it had a negative impact on player psyche. Lou Lamoriello, then New Jersey Devils GM, took it a step further and asked if it would be possible to remove it from the league’s statistic package.

Burke:

“[It is] the most useless statistic ever devised,” says Brian Burke, President of Hockey Operations for the Calgary Flames. “It’s pretty simple. If your team stinks, so does your plus-minus. And it’s compounded if you play against the opposition’s top players.”

McPhee:

George McPhee, the Capitals’ GM at the time, believed that the criticism [of Ovechkin] was unfair.
“[It’s] a great example of how misleading [plus-minus] could be,” said McPhee, who has told reporters he never used the stat in his roster decisions. “The very next season when the team was coached much better, his numbers were a whole lot better.”

And this gem:

It’s clear that players, general managers, arbitrators and coaches don’t think much of the stat. But how about those on the forefront of “advanced stats”? Jennifer Lute Costella, co-founder of LCG Analytics, says, “It has the sophistication of a kindergartner self-portrait.”

Zone starts is a statistic doesn't actually have a huge impact. You can read more about that here and here. You might say "well yeah, but it shows Barrie's sheltered". Not really. 2014/15 (Barrie's first full season) to today, 80 players have played for the Avs. Of those 80 players across that timeframe no player has averaged more even strength minutes per game than Barrie. I'd be curious to hear more about how a defensman who plays as many even strength minutes has he does, on a team that has been as poor / mediocre as the Avs, has been somehow "sheltered" from the other team's best players.


Finally, I'm rather glad you opted to use two "advanced" statistics to back up your claim. Because it opens the door for a whole bunch of other advanced statistics which you now can't dismiss. Specifically, Andrew Berkshire of Sportsnet did a ranking of the 20 best defensmen in the league which you can read here. The ranking weighs the past three years and is 100% based off of advanced statistics. You'll be particularly pleased to know that, unlike your two statistics, it uses fifty-nine. The ranking uses that collection of weighted stats across three full seasons to measure offence, defense, transition, and the degree of difficulty defensmen face. What won't please you so much is that Barrie ends up #19 on that ranking.

Now, I've already laid out some of the problems with the ranking (specifically advanced stats) in a prior post, but I don't think you get to do that considering you just called Tyson Barrie a "one-dimensional dman incapable of playing defense", which you then proceeded to justify via just two statistics. Based on that you clearly don't see any problems with advanced statistics considering even +/- qualifies as a valid one in your book.

So...have fun with that ranking. It's rather undeniably infinitely more nuanced and comprehensive than your own two statistics, I think you'll agree, so I don't think you're in any position to discredit it, which would come across as rather hypocritical in addition to being uninformed about the player Tyson Barrie actually is.

 

[Lemonlimey]

Hows about we take out Barrie and RNH and work with something around Puljujarvi and Jost. Jost comes home to Edmonton and Pulju could learn a thing or two from his fellow Finn Rantanen.

This clicks. Both clubs too afraid if their kid could turner the corner though i presume and will wait another year.

 

[rockinghockey]

I would rather keep RNH as he has 3yrs to Barrie’s 2 yrs. if zspooner doesn’t pan out just let him go and move one of Sekera or Russel in the off season and EDM has over 7 mil for a legit top 6 winger to play with RNH or LD. EDM has some young players that I think will be ready to play bottom 6 next year. Keep Yamamoto and Puljujarvi in the AHL for another season.

 

[strictlyrandy]

You think a one-dimensional dman incapable of playing defense is the main piece to land Draisaitl? Really?!?

None of that is Tyson Barrie.[MOD]

 

[EscapedGoat]

You'll probably be pleased to know you are currently on track with all of the other boring Barrie detractors!

It's nearly always the exact same handful of arguments. +/- is a nearly useless statistic. You can read here, for example, about its problems and the many who disagree with it. It's an excellent article on the history of +/-, and the long history of criticisms of it. For example:

Players:

Poile and Lamoriello:

Burke:

McPhee:


And this gem:


Zone starts is a statistic doesn't actually have a huge impact. You can read more about that here and here. You might say "well yeah, but it shows Barrie's sheltered". Not really. 2014/15 (Barrie's first full season) to today, 80 players have played for the Avs. Of those 80 players across that timeframe no player has averaged more even strength minutes per game than Barrie. I'd be curious to hear more about how a defensman who plays as many even strength minutes has he does, on a team that has been as poor / mediocre as the Avs, has been somehow "sheltered" from the other team's best players.


Finally, I'm rather glad you opted to use two "advanced" statistics to back up your claim. Because it opens the door for a whole bunch of other advanced statistics which you now can't dismiss. Specifically, Andrew Berkshire of Sportsnet did a ranking of the 20 best defensmen in the league which you can read here. The ranking weighs the past three years and is 100% based off of advanced statistics. You'll be particularly pleased to know that, unlike your two statistics, it uses fifty-nine. The ranking uses that collection of weighted stats across three full seasons to measure offence, defense, transition, and the degree of difficulty defensmen face. What won't please you so much is that Barrie ends up #19 on that ranking.

Now, I've already laid out some of the problems with the ranking (specifically advanced stats) in a prior post, but I don't think you get to do that considering you just called Tyson Barrie a "one-dimensional dman incapable of playing defense", which you then proceeded to justify via just two statistics. Based on that you clearly don't see any problems with advanced statistics considering even +/- qualifies as a valid one in your book.

So...have fun with that ranking. It's rather undeniably infinitely more nuanced and comprehensive than your own two statistics, I think you'll agree, so I don't think you're in any position to discredit it, which would come across as rather hypocritical in addition to being uninformed about the player Tyson Barrie actually is.

Don't usually like quoting posts that are long, or using over-used terms like "mic drop", but Jesus, that's one hell of a mic drop post. The response, or lack of, from the poster should be interesting.

 

[Foppberg]

Don't usually like quoting posts that are long, or using over-used terms like "mic drop", but Jesus, that's one hell of a mic drop post. The response, or lack of, from the poster should be interesting.

Yeah, that's kinda his thing. Don't get in debates with Avs44

 

[EscapedGoat]

Yeah, that's kinda his thing. Don't get in debates with Avs44

Oh I know. Been a lurker on the avs board for years. Ive got a definite list of people I don't plan on arguing with if I ever start posting over there more haha.

 

[strictlyrandy]

I like Avs44. From my general experience, it's best not to get in an argument with them such as another poster did in this thread. You'll just end up losing.

 

[McShogun99]

I would trade a top 3 protected 1st for Barrie. RNH for Barrie makes sense as well but it would kill whatever is left of Edmonton's forward depth.

 

[LTIR]

I would trade a top 3 protected 1st for Barrie. RNH for Barrie makes sense as well but it would kill whatever is left of Edmonton's forward depth.

Must be new to this thread... AVS fans apparently want Draisaitl for him.

 

[Muffin]

Must be new to this thread... AVS fans apparently want Draisaitl for him.

You can't find a post in the thread suggesting that. It's always Barrie+, stop your bull****

 

[TFHockey]

I don't understand why anyone would bash Barrie. He'd be great with the Oilers, just what we need on the back end.

Respectfully Av fans he isn't the main piece in a Draisaitl trade.

 

[Vaslof]

You can't find a post in the thread suggesting that. It's always Barrie+, stop your bull****

I'll start then, I wouldn't add

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

I'll start then, I wouldn't add

Barrie doesn't even start the convo for Drai if the players/teams were reversed, we need to stop acting like it would.

Barrie is a great offensive defender with warts defensively. Hard to imagine getting a first line forward for him. RNH is about right. Drai is a league away.