Player Discussion Tyler Toffoli

[4Twenty]

Tofolli will resign, guy loves it in Vancouver and Pearson’s one of his best friends, wife likes the city too

Pearson is only signed for next year.

 

[4Twenty]

Different style player, different position. And Bonino always has a soft place to land in your bottom-6 because of his defensive ability.

The list of Simmonds and Neals who have cratered out cresting 30 when their skating/motor broke is a long one. And Toffoli has barely been getting to 2nd line production in his age 24-28 years. He doesn't have to fall off much to become a liability, and he was nowhere to land down the lineup when he does.

If there's one Golden Role to signing UFAs, it's that you don't sign 40-50 point 2nd line types to term past the age of 30. It basically never turns out well.

30 seems too young. But Toffoli likely commands 6-7 years. Not 4.

The other problem is that there isn’t enough money. Hoping he takes a marginal raise to $5m like most around here have isn’t realistic. Maybe to land in a perfect spot but Vancouver doesn’t seem perfect.

 

[CanuckleBerry]

Or how about we keep Boeser and Toffoli and finally have two top 6 RWers for the first time in a decade?

I'm thrilled with the step that Virtanen has taken but I still don't see him as a reliable top-six forward. He's far more valuable to the Canucks as a versatile winger that can move up the lineup when needed. I agree with you that we try our best to hold on to both Boeser and Toffoli depending on how this season turns out. Once we know what we have in Podkolzin, then the question of who is expendable on that right wing becomes more of a talking point.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Tofolli will resign, guy loves it in Vancouver and Pearson’s one of his best friends, wife likes the city too

wife works in LA. He’s gonna be worth 5.5M of which we don’t have. Even if we did, HE would get to choose where he signs as 30 other teams are gonna want him. I think he re signs in LA or Anaheim/ SJ

 

[Hit the post]

At his age of 28 like most ufas he’d want as long a term as possible. Easier to get a high dollar contract covering ages 32-35 when you are 28 than when you are 32.

I also tend to think a very strong NTC would a requirement (as even though VCR is but a short flight to LA; being later traded across the continent is another). Offer him that at the expense of a lower cap hit.

 

[VanJack]

Canucks will obviously have to overpay to get Tofoli to re-sign, and they're in no position to overpay anybody. That's price you pay for a flock of bad contracts for veterans who either through injury or declining performance, can't get it done most nights.

It'll be too bad if Tofoli walks, not just because the Canucks will likely be sitting on their hands for the first two days of this spring's entry draft. But because he seems to be a good fit with the Canucks as as legitimate top-six forward.

Any way they can miraculous shift Eriksson's $6m cap hit to Tofoli? Ya right.

 

[MS]

I just don't want to sign him, period. No matter how good he is for the next 2 months.

You don't compete by bloating out your roster with huge contracts for 30-ish 45-point forwards.

Again, if you shift Adam Gaudette to the wing in the slot Toffoli is in now, what is the difference in performance and production between those two players? Does it even begin to cover the difference between the ~$1.5 million Gaudette will make next year and the $5 million+ Toffoli will command? And is it worth losing Tanev or Markstrom over?

You win by paying and retaining your core players and then maximizing value (especially internally) for the roster around them. Not by getting tunnel vision for non-elite UFAs. It's no different than not understanding that anything Jay Beagle adds doesn't even begin to cover the difference between $3 million for him and $800k for a Gaunce or Dowd.

Right now the organization has two players (Virtanen and Gaudette) who are out-performing their minutes offensively on small contracts. Gaudette is clearly not a #3 centre long term and will need to be shifted to wing. You win by extracting the most out of those assets when they're cheap, not by burying them behind guys who aren't any better at triple the cost. And that's why we're in the pickle we're in now.

 

[sting101]

I just don't want to sign him, period. No matter how good he is for the next 2 months.

You don't compete by bloating out your roster with huge contracts for 30-ish 45-point forwards.

Again, if you shift Adam Gaudette to the wing in the slot Toffoli is in now, what is the difference in performance and production between those two players? Does it even begin to cover the difference between the ~$1.5 million Gaudette will make next year and the $5 million+ Toffoli will command? And is it worth losing Tanev or Markstrom over?

You win by paying and retaining your core players and then maximizing value (especially internally) for the roster around them. Not by getting tunnel vision for non-elite UFAs. It's no different than not understanding that anything Jay Beagle adds doesn't even begin to cover the difference between $3 million for him and $800k for a Gaunce or Dowd.

Right now the organization has two players (Virtanen and Gaudette) who are out-performing their minutes offensively on small contracts. Gaudette is clearly not a #3 centre long term and will need to be shifted to wing. You win by extracting the most out of those assets when they're cheap, not by burying them behind guys who aren't any better at triple the cost. And that's why we're in the pickle we're in now.

The thing that matters is flexibility and asset value.

I agree with most of what you say conceptially but a good player with a good contract can always get a good return.

Just dont sign bad contracts and you can keep rolling assets forward. The biggest issue is legacy deals and NM and NT clauses without enough flexibility for the team to change directions. Toffoli signed with a limited NTC on a 3 to 4 yr deal similar to David Perrons is a smart move. Toffoli signed past 31 with a NMC at 6 million would be an instant black hole even with him being good for 2/3 yrs.
Toffoli is a trap that Benning probably would walk right into. Lets hope Gear gets this stuff dialed or they are in big trouble.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Don't expect him to take a cut in term and money. It's not like Tanev and Markstrom, who have played here for years and want to be here. NYR certainly didn't do us any favors with the Kreider contract. Let someone else make the mistake of signing him if he wants term.

 

[MS]

The thing that matters is flexibility and asset value.

I agree with most of what you say conceptially but a good player with a good contract can always get a good return.

Just dont sign bad contracts and you can keep rolling assets forward. The biggest issue is legacy deals and NM and NT clauses without enough flexibility for the team to change directions. Toffoli signed with a limited NTC on a 3 to 4 yr deal similar to David Perrons is a smart move. Toffoli signed past 31 with a NMC at 6 million would be an instant black hole even with him being good for 2/3 yrs.
Toffoli is a trap that Benning probably would walk right into. Lets hope Gear gets this stuff dialed or they are in big trouble.

I don't disagree.

Sure, if you could sign Toffoli for 3 years/$10-12 million maybe you look at it. But I think we all know that's incredibly unlikely.

My issue right now with Toffoli is Gaudette. He's clearly a top-6 guy, clearly not a #3 centre, and clearly is never going to be more than a #3 centre here long-term with Horvat and Pettersson in place. It's clear as day he's a top-6 winger long-term, which is already where he's playing on the PP.

Given that he's scoring at a 45-50 point pace as a rookie in limited minutes, I think we can be pretty comfortable Gaudette could duplicate (or increase) that production on the wing next to Horvat or Pettersson next year. At $1.5 million or so. And if that's the case, why on God's green earth would we want to pay $5 million + for Toffoli - and box out our ability to sign Markstrom/Tanev in the process - to do the same thing?

Right now we have 5 guys (Miller, Boeser, Virtanen, Gaudette, Pearson) who will put up 40+ points in top-6 winger minutes, plus Josh Leivo if we re-sign him. That is more than enough top-6 winger depth. Spending $5-6 million on a Toffoli should be literally the last thing on our radar right now.

It's funny to see people LOLing at Toronto for splurging on adding a superstar like John Tavares to an already deep forward group while ignoring their blueline and team defense, and then clamouring for us to do the same thing with a vastly inferior player in Tyler Toffoli.

 

[F A N]

I don't disagree.

Sure, if you could sign Toffoli for 3 years/$10-12 million maybe you look at it. But I think we all know that's incredibly unlikely.

My issue right now with Toffoli is Gaudette. He's clearly a top-6 guy, clearly not a #3 centre, and clearly is never going to be more than a #3 centre here long-term with Horvat and Pettersson in place. It's clear as day he's a top-6 winger long-term, which is already where he's playing on the PP.

Given that he's scoring at a 45-50 point pace as a rookie in limited minutes, I think we can be pretty comfortable Gaudette could duplicate (or increase) that production on the wing next to Horvat or Pettersson next year. At $1.5 million or so. And if that's the case, why on God's green earth would we want to pay $5 million + for Toffoli - and box out our ability to sign Markstrom/Tanev in the process - to do the same thing?

Right now we have 5 guys (Miller, Boeser, Virtanen, Gaudette, Pearson) who will put up 40+ points in top-6 winger minutes, plus Josh Leivo if we re-sign him. That is more than enough top-6 winger depth. Spending $5-6 million on a Toffoli should be literally the last thing on our radar right now.

It's funny to see people LOLing at Toronto for splurging on adding a superstar like John Tavares to an already deep forward group while ignoring their blueline and team defense, and then clamouring for us to do the same thing with a vastly inferior player in Tyler Toffoli.

I'm not that confident in Gaudette's ability to be a top 6 winger solution. I'm not saying he's not a top 6 winger but there are player such as a healthy Baertschi who when given the opportunity can put up decent top 6 numbers and guys like Toffoli who has done it at a relatively consistent level. Toffoli is simply the better player at this time and I'm not sure if Gaudette will ever be as good. With that said, I agree with your perspective. If the Canucks are confident in Gaudette they should look to sign him long-term and lock him up at a good long-term rate and hope he provides the value.

 

[Hoghandler]

If there's one Golden Role to signing UFAs, it's that you don't sign 40-50 point 2nd line types to term past the age of 30. It basically never turns out well.

In a perfect world, all of your players are in their 20's. In reality, it's tough to build any kind of competitive team without taking risks on players into their early 30's.

Ideally we don't enter into a long-term contract with a goalie on the wrong side of 30. Ideally we don't do the same with a dman on the wrong side of 30 that has one of the worst injury histories in the NHL. Ideal only applies on paper, as sometimes you need to take gambles on good players, even though they come with risk attached. This is especially true with Tanev.

Toffoli is an extremely durable player that is on pace for the 2nd highest point total of his career. If he shows good chemistry with this roster down the stretch, and you can lock him up to a reasonable deal in that 28, 29, 30 and 31 year old age bracket, you have to try and make it work. Especially because it affords you the luxury of using forward assets to plug holes on the backend, something that won't be nearly as easy if he walks.

Who the Canucks prioritize out of Toffoli, Markstrom and Tanev should come down to how reasonable their demands are respectively.

 

[MS]

In a perfect world, all of your players are in their 20's. In reality, it's tough to build any kind of competitive team without taking risks on players into their early 30's.

Ideally we don't enter into a long-term contract with a goalie on the wrong side of 30. Ideally we don't do the same with a dman on the wrong side of 30 that has one of the worst injury histories in the NHL. Ideal only applies on paper, as sometimes you need to take gambles on good players, even though they come with risk attached. This is especially true with Tanev.

Toffoli is an extremely durable player that is on pace for the 2nd highest point total of his career. If he shows good chemistry with this roster down the stretch, and you can lock him up to a reasonable deal in that 28, 29, 30 and 31 year old age bracket, you have to try and make it work. Especially because it affords you the luxury of using forward assets to plug holes on the backend, something that won't be nearly as easy if he walks.

Who the Canucks prioritize out of Toffoli, Markstrom and Tanev should come down to how reasonable their demands are respectively.

How many points do you think Gaudette (a player you’ve admitted should be converted to wing) would score as a top-6 RW next year?

How many points do you think Toffoli would score in the same role?

How much different do you think their cap hit would be?

 

[Hoghandler]

How many points do you think Gaudette (a player you’ve admitted should be converted to wing) would score as a top-6 RW next year?

How many points do you think Toffoli would score in the same role?

How much different do you think their cap hit would be?

Travis Green wants Adam Gaudette at 3C. There is no other player ready to step into that role next year, so Gaudette will likely be there.

Production is usage dependant. If Toffoli is on the top line, I would guess he's in the ballpark of 60 points.

 

[MS]

Travis Green wants Adam Gaudette at 3C. There is no other player ready to step into that role next year, so Gaudette will likely be there.

Production is usage dependant. If Toffoli is on the top line, I would guess he's in the ballpark of 60 points.

What do you think Gaudette would produce on the same line? Answer the question.

Why not sign/trade for a #3 C? Would cost a hell of a lot less than Toffoli.

And I disagree that Green wants a poor defensive C in the #3C spot. You actually think that?

 

[sting101]

In a perfect world, all of your players are in their 20's. In reality, it's tough to build any kind of competitive team without taking risks on players into their early 30's.

Ideally we don't enter into a long-term contract with a goalie on the wrong side of 30. Ideally we don't do the same with a dman on the wrong side of 30 that has one of the worst injury histories in the NHL. Ideal only applies on paper, as sometimes you need to take gambles on good players, even though they come with risk attached. This is especially true with Tanev.

Toffoli is an extremely durable player that is on pace for the 2nd highest point total of his career. If he shows good chemistry with this roster down the stretch, and you can lock him up to a reasonable deal in that 28, 29, 30 and 31 year old age bracket, you have to try and make it work. Especially because it affords you the luxury of using forward assets to plug holes on the backend, something that won't be nearly as easy if he walks.

Who the Canucks prioritize out of Toffoli, Markstrom and Tanev should come down to how reasonable their demands are respectively.

That opening sentence makes absolutely no sense at all. And ideals do not only apply on paper?

It's not about perfect ages its about value and probability. 35yr old Brodeur or Lundqvist would be unreal but a 35yr old Markstrom with knee issues is a bad probability of success and likely a horrible value by then which probably drives Demko from Vancouver and affects Hughes and Pettersson's prime which is extremely important given they are now the faces of this franchise and represent the best chance we have to win a cup.

Tanev is the last of the 3 i would sign for term and 5+ AAV. .As you said he's a broken down shell who is yes having a solid season but is incredibly likely to revert back to injured and unreliable.

Markstrom also needs to sign for a good term and dollar or were best to move on. Guy took until he was 28 to become a good starter. 1 all star season at 30 now interrupted by injury is not enough to invest stupid money and term. The problem with Jacob is double edged if he wants Seattle protection. That would be a deal breaker also for me. 3 or 4 x 5/5.5 with a limited 10 team NTC and no expansion protection....take it or leave it. Cannot afford to lose the future starter in Demko.

Toffoli is another trap contract potentially. You sign him at 4.5 x 4 and that's a success........5+ and 5+ years and it's got all the makings of a disaster.

I tend to agree with MS in that we least need Toffoli but i also believe he's likely the most valuable of the 3 and if we sign him smartly we could get asset value back in returns. I don't agree about Gaudette being a winger in the near future and would loathe to take him away from his 3C spot which he has improved so drastically this year.

All of them probably realize this is the time to cash in so we will see how much they want to sacrifice for a good situation or at least a familiar one. All things equal i probably dump Tanev unless Demko shows us he's ready down the stretch.

 

[sting101]

What do you think Gaudette would produce on the same line? Answer the question.

Why not sign/trade for a #3 C? Would cost a hell of a lot less than Toffoli.

And I disagree that Green wants a poor defensive C in the #3C spot. You actually think that?

i dont think Gaudette or the Canucks see him as a winger. It's a moot point as far as i'm concerned.

Keep working the kid with Malhotra and you have a much better situation being deep down the middle unless your advocating for Sutter because why would we sign or trade for a good 3C? That's gonna be expensive?

I easily see Gaudette with seasoning being a Tyler Bozak for this team.

 

[Hoghandler]

What do you think Gaudette would produce on the same line? Answer the question.

Why not sign/trade for a #3 C? Would cost a hell of a lot less than Toffoli.

And I disagree that Green wants a poor defensive C in the #3C spot. You actually think that?

Maybe 20% less than Toffoli? Maybe 30% less? I have no idea, as Gaudette has never played on the wing. How much worse would he be defensively on that line? That is an equally important question. Would he be a liability? Does Toffoli allow you to go head to head with other teams top lines, while Gaudette would be a weak link there?

Travis Green has a defensively responsible, veteran centre playing out of position on right wing to keep Adam Gaudette at centre. When asked about it by Jeff Patterson, Green said he wants Adam Gaudette at centre. So does it matter what anyone else thinks, if Travis Green likes Adam Gaudette at centre?

 

[mriswith]

Given that he's scoring at a 45-50 point pace as a rookie in limited minutes, I think we can be pretty comfortable Gaudette could duplicate (or increase) that production on the wing next to Horvat or Pettersson next year. At $1.5 million or so. And if that's the case, why on God's green earth would we want to pay $5 million + for Toffoli - and box out our ability to sign Markstrom/Tanev in the process - to do the same thing?

Right now we have 5 guys (Miller, Boeser, Virtanen, Gaudette, Pearson) who will put up 40+ points in top-6 winger minutes, plus Josh Leivo if we re-sign him. That is more than enough top-6 winger depth. Spending $5-6 million on a Toffoli should be literally the last thing on our radar right now.

Because the Toffoli acquisition only makes sense in any capacity if it's another pro scouting home run like Miller.

The conditions for Toffoli being a good acquisition are: multiple cap dumps this summer, re-signs to a reasonable contract, and scores at a 25-30+ goal pace or better. If any of these conditions fail it was a terrible acquisition.

Miller and Boeser can do this but the others probably can't, making Toffoli the 3rd legitimate top 6 option and better defensively than Boeser (or Gaudette). Ideally Pearson and Virtanen aren't in your top 6 and Leivo definitely shouldn't be either so we do need a guy like a Toffoli that meets the above conditions.

Toronto has 3 guys making 33.5 million, we're talking about a full top six making <25 million, not the same scenario. But if you feel too top heavy and Virtanen/Gaudette have pushed their way in then you could deal Boeser to rebalance the defense, although you more likely just flip or let Pearson and/or Miller walk by then, or deal Myers, or take any of the many options for rebalancing available at that time. Seems like a good scenario to me, the problem is how unlikely it is to get there.

Also Tanev walks regardless of what happens to Toffoli because signing 30 year old broken down Tanev to any sort of term is begging for a disaster, unless it's a ridiculously team friendly deal.

 

[VanJack]

I see the Canucks are confirming that Boeser is gone for eight weeks, which basically means the rest of the regular season.....back in time for the playoffs, but you wonder with all the rust, how effective he'll be.

This really sucks....but underscores how important the Tofoli acquisition was for the Canucks. Might be one of the best deadline pickups by any team in the NHL. Tofoli is probably a slight drop off from Boeser, but has all that Stanley Cup experience and is a legitimate top-six winger. Would be a crater-like hole in the lineup without him.

Now if the 'Double D' goalies Demko and Domingue can carry through to the finish line, then Jimbo has had a pretty decent trade deadline.

 

[Hoghandler]

Now if the 'Double D' goalies Demko and Domingue can carry through to the finish line, then Jimbo has had a pretty decent trade deadline.

The other encouraging thing about Bennings deadline is the apparent restraint he showed. He can get tunnel vision when he likes a player and just keep offering assets until he gets him, or so it appears. So just the fact he didn’t come away with Barrie meant he likely stood his ground in the negotiation, and refused to throw in valuable futures to make just to get it done. He also was after grit and pushback for the bottom 6, yet again came away without pulling the trigger on that move, which probably would have come at too high a cost.

Big fan of Toffoli as a a player, even with the steep price paid.

Thought getting Domingue without throwing in a late pick was good as well.

All in all, a good trade deadline for the club IMO.

 

[MS]

Maybe 20% less than Toffoli? Maybe 30% less? I have no idea, as Gaudette has never played on the wing. How much worse would he be defensively on that line? That is an equally important question. Would he be a liability? Does Toffoli allow you to go head to head with other teams top lines, while Gaudette would be a weak link there?

20-30% less than 60 points is 40-48 points. Adam Gaudette is on pace for 47 points from 12 minutes/game of garbage time with guys like Roussel as linemates. You think his production would go down if he was bumped up to 15-16 minutes/game on a top scoring line next to Pettersson or Horvat? Really?

Tyler Toffoli is not noted as a good defensive player, and - whatever defensive issues Gaudette has at C - most centres are competent defensive wingers when moved to the easier defensive position. I don't think the difference there would be significant enough to justify a $4 million difference in salary, do you?

Travis Green has a defensively responsible, veteran centre playing out of position on right wing to keep Adam Gaudette at centre. When asked about it by Jeff Patterson, Green said he wants Adam Gaudette at centre. So does it matter what anyone else thinks, if Travis Green likes Adam Gaudette at centre?

This is a pointless response. We're arguing what the team should be doing, not what they are doing. I'm not arguing that they aren't probably going to try signing Toffoli and continue mis-using Gaudette.
You don't think Gaudette is a fit at C, due to his defensive play and the fact he's trapped behind Pettersson and Horvat. You've agreed he should be converted to wing. Don't cop out and hide behind 'Oh, well clearly they want him as a C' as an alternative to actually criticizing what they're doing when it doesn't agree with your position.
__________

This is where teams go off the rails and confine themselves to mediocrity in a capped league. It isn't 2003 anymore and it isn't about just getting the best player possible for the role. It's about generating value through your lineup. And paying Tyler Toffoli and Jay Beagle $8-9 million when you could have been paying Nic Dowd and Adam Gaudette $2.5 million to do pretty much exactly the same thing absolutely kills you. And leaves you in a position where you potentially can't afford to retain your star goalie and can't improve your badly struggling blueline or #3 centre hole.
If you bloat out your roster on middling age 30ish players on UFA premium contracts ... you won't compete. And you're closing your own window.

 

[PG Canuck]

Why would she work at all? If my wife is bringing home 5 million a year. I am only doing what I like whether it involves a paycheck or not. Likely she just kept working out of habit, now is a chance to buid a new reality that reflects that she is multi millionaire. All speculation as it is possible that she is career oriented and just using up vacation time to be with her husband before forcing him back to LA for her job that likely pays 100 times less a year than her husbands. Also, they are likely moving from LA no matter what as LA and Anaheim are not likely spots for him next year.

Just because Toffoli makes millions doesn't mean she wants to sit and home and do nothing with her life. She works for the LA Dodgers, that's a pretty good job she's got herself into and she's made something of herself rather than living off her husband. She's worked her entire life to be at this stage of her life wot have the career she has, and has been working with the Dodgers for 11 years now - I don't think she wants to sit at home counting TT's money. I see wives get harped on for not being their own person and just "marrying a hockey player" yet when a wife wants to become something herself, she gets dogged. Can never win.

I think they could probably make it work here in Vancouver with her job, rather than if Toffoli went to the East, lets say. It won't be perfect like LA was, but it'll be better than a Boston etc.

 

[Hoghandler]

20-30% less than 60 points is 40-48 points. Adam Gaudette is on pace for 47 points from 12 minutes/game of garbage time with guys like Roussel as linemates. You think his production would go down if he was bumped up to 15-16 minutes/game on a top scoring line next to Pettersson or Horvat? Really?

Tyler Toffoli is not noted as a good defensive player, and - whatever defensive issues Gaudette has at C - most centres are competent defensive wingers when moved to the easier defensive position. I don't think the difference there would be significant enough to justify a $4 million difference in salary, do you?



This is a pointless response. We're arguing what the team should be doing, not what they are doing. I'm not arguing that they aren't probably going to try signing Toffoli and continue mis-using Gaudette.
You don't think Gaudette is a fit at C, due to his defensive play and the fact he's trapped behind Pettersson and Horvat. You've agreed he should be converted to wing. Don't cop out and hide behind 'Oh, well clearly they want him as a C' as an alternative to actually criticizing what they're doing when it doesn't agree with your position.

I'm not convinced Gaudette's season is sustainable, offensively. He's not generating many shots and his shooting % is at 17%. So I don't assume he's a guy that would come back next year and give you 47 points from the 3rd line. I would deem 48 points, from top 6 minutes, a success. Not to mention, point totals are usage dependant. A winger is likely going to produce more alongside Pettersson than alongside Horvat.

I view Toffoli as a noticeable upgrade to Gaudette defensively. Toffoli is great along the boards, cut his teeth in a strict defensive system under Sutter, and every single player he's played with over the last 3 years has performed better with him than without. Gaudette often seems lost in his own end, gets running out of position and needs to grow that aspect of his game considerably.

There is a difference between building my favourite fantasy roster, and what I would hope to see done based on the reality of our situation. In reality, Travis Green seems pretty dead set on playing Adam Gaudette at centre. So what I want to see done is being based on reality, not a fantasy roster.

So make the distinction clear; are you asking for a fantasy roster or what I think makes sense based on how the head coach prefers to utilize his roster? The answers to those questions are not the same.

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

If Toffoli just leaves in the summer... I will be frustrated and disappointed with Benning, as I generally have been for the last handful of years. Unless we go really deep in the playoffs, it would be such a disappointment to lose Madden for a rental that just packs up and leaves. Madden would be cheap depth, under team control for a bunch of years, and even safe from expansion draft. Madden is the kind of rising star prospect that you try to trade your players on expiring contracts for. And he's the kind of depth that you need to keep adding to your NHL team every year or two, to continue to have potentially elite young talent on your team, if you want to ever be a perennial great team. Like Chicago was for years, when they kept pushing through great young depth talent, or Pittsburgh. I'm afraid Benning has no vision whatsoever.